Ultimate Footy - Norm Smith League

[JACKATTACK 17]

Either has no effect on me my two keeper players are Rhys Stanley and josh caddy, if it is moved to 1991 I just don't have Stanley as a keeper, what happens if you do not have the possibility of selecting 2 "young" keepers

You don't have to.

Just a make a judgement call on whther you would like the extra pick at the end of the draft or not.

[Range Rover 1,935]

I tend to agree with 1991.

Sucks to be Dappa: Scott selwood: 1990, Redden 1990

He's still got Hannebery and Gysberts ... not bad at all. I imagine there will also be a bit of horse trading for youngsters towards the end of the season as well. Seems enough good talent from 91-93 for everyone.

[H_T 3,049]

I tend to agree with 1991.

Sucks to be Dappa: Scott selwood: 1990, Redden 1990

Fwiw I voted for what was originally planned, 4 keepers. But I'll go with whatever the flow is. I thought it was good of JA to extend the olive branch and create a poll of options. Democracy I suppose salutes.

But it should be remembered what JA has done here. He's trying to satisfy all concerned; which is for the good.

Well done JA in difficult circumstances.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

You don't have to.

Just a make a judgement call on whther you would like the extra pick at the end of the draft or not.

Once people have announced who they intend on keeping does that leave the option open to someone like myself to assess the leftovers and then decide my stance?

[JACKATTACK 17]

Once people have announced who they intend on keeping does that leave the option open to someone like myself to assess the leftovers and then decide my stance?

I would think that leading into the draft coaches will nominate their keepers via a PM to me, say 2 weeks before the draft. Once everyone has submitted their keeper choices I will make them public.

[jayceebee31 761]

Hi All, as stated in an earlier post, I do not understand what the hell is going on re a keepers league.

Why in hell do we need change and NOW.One of the greatest challenges and skills required is being a great draft picker.Why don't we do the same as this year.If not please JA explain what is what you propos and why? I cannot agree or disagree until I know what the JC is going on.

Please advise- Many thanks & I also want to say RR ,you have been with us from the start ,hang in there. Don't do a JCB-( dummy spit, just yet,please don't disrupt te league, you are above that. and furthermore,why o why do we need to make decisions now.We are not even half way into this season.

This [censored] is really hurting a good thing.Please all as OMR stated,let's keep our shirts on ,cool down and let's put up possible changes at year end.Then who decides to stay in, or goes then they can decide their plight.

[JACKATTACK 17]

JCB please refer to the above 655 posts for a complete run down on the keeper league.

[jayceebee31 761]

JCB please refer to the above 655 posts for a complete run down on the keeper league.

I can assure you I am not going to read 655 posts of crap- Also, I think it is a compete joke in doing anything till at least end of season.We have kept changing the rules from one year to the next..why change at all. I think it is becoming bloody ridiculous.

is enough is enough.If you want me out as well- just let me know.

We brought in new draft picks last year which I believe we're fair and reasonable.Why don't we just do as the AFL does, drop of at east 3 picks and go from there.Or at least wait till end of season, then let us all have our thoughts and work out what we all want.

[JACKATTACK 17]

**sigh**

JCB, you're going over so many things that have been covered in the posts above. Understand my point of view here, I'm trying to keep 18 coaches happy here and you're not helping by complaining about something that has already been covered.

If you're not prepared to read the rules as they have been set out then you have no basis to complain.

Yes it's frustrating to have rule changes in the middle of the year for all the reasons I also brought up, and you would know that i brought this up if you had been bothered to read any posts. Despite my feelings on the issue I agreed to take a vote so everyone could have their say and I could set the rules in the best interests of the league. And those interests are:

At the beginning of next year you will have the opportunity to select 4 keeper players from your list as it finishes up this year. (this rule has always been known and has been discussed many times from inception and throughout the year).

The recent change as was agreed on via the poll on the Ufooty league page is that 2 of your 4 keepers must be 'rookie keepers' where a rookie keeper is a player who's year of birth is 1991 or later. Given this change you may choose not to take 1 or both of your rookie keepers, in which case you will just have to draft an extra player at the end of the draft.

Now you're up to speed.

And 1 more thing, the next person to threaten to leave will lose a [censored].

[jayceebee31 761]

**sigh**

JCB, you're going over so many things that have been covered in the posts above. Understand my point of view here, I'm trying to keep 18 coaches happy here and you're not helping by complaining about something that has already been covered.

If you're not prepared to read the rules as they have been set out then you have no basis to complain.

Yes it's frustrating to have rule changes in the middle of the year for all the reasons I also brought up, and you would know that i brought this up if you had been bothered to read any posts. Despite my feelings on the issue I agreed to take a vote so everyone could have their say and I could set the rules in the best interests of the league. And those interests are:

At the beginning of next year you will have the opportunity to select 4 keeper players from your list as it finishes up this year. (this rule has always been known and has been discussed many times from inception and throughout the year).

The recent change as was agreed on via the poll on the Ufooty league page is that 2 of your 4 keepers must be 'rookie keepers' where a rookie keeper is a player who's year of birth is 1991 or later. Given this change you may choose not to take 1 or both of your rookie keepers, in which case you will just have to draft an extra player at the end of the draft.

Now you're up to speed.

And 1 more thing, the next person to threaten to leave will lose a [censored].

Thanks for update but please notice I have been away for 10 weeks, no mention ( or at least little mention) on our message section of our league on Ultimate footy.This is the forum for us to discuss matters like this.Thanks for updating me,this situation re Keepers league is just crap.Please ,please give it up till at least end of season.

Just let us get this season over with then discuss what we all want at years end.

,

[JACKATTACK 17]

Thanks for update but please notice I have been away for 10 weeks, no mention ( or at least little mention) on our message section of our league on Ultimate footy.This is the forum for us to discuss matters like this.Thanks for updating me,this situation re Keepers league is just crap.Please ,please give it up till at least end of season.

Just let us get this season over with then discuss what we all want at years end.

,

Thanks for your input but the keeper league is staying.

[Old Man Rivers 326]

Thanks for update but please notice I have been away for 10 weeks, no mention ( or at least little mention) on our message section of our league on Ultimate footy.This is the forum for us to discuss matters like this.Thanks for updating me,this situation re Keepers league is just crap.Please ,please give it up till at least end of season.

Just let us get this season over with then discuss what we all want at years end.

,

I can understand how you struggled to stay up to date with all that has unfolded JCB.

It is hard yards when you are oversea's & trying to stay involved in this great Comp.

JA has explained the concept well, embrace it, reload & lets focus on 2012.

You are the current Flag favourite, stay switched on, your window is wide open this season.

& don't even think about leaving my friend, your sledging, stirring & interaction is one of the great attractions in this Leauge.

Hang in there Monster Head, this proposed 2013 Keepers Leauge will take this Comp to another level.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Old Man Rivers

[jayceebee31 761]

I can understand how you struggled to stay up to date with all that has unfolded JCB.

It is hard yards when you are oversea's & trying to stay involved in this great Comp.

JA has explained the concept well, embrace it, reload & lets focus on 2012.

You are the current Flag favourite, stay switched on, your window is wide open this season.

& don't even think about leaving my friend, your sledging, stirring & interaction is one of the great attractions in this Leauge.

Hang in there Monster Head, this proposed 2013 Keepers Leauge will take this Comp to another level.

Thanks but I would sincerely like Range Rover to stay not for just this year but also beyond.

Before next season, OMR ,please explain to me, what the hell this keepers league is all about.Do we retain four players then pick two young one's born in 1992, and what happens if we all want the same players?

[Old Man Rivers 326]

You will have to check with Wooders - However I am fairly certain "The Range Rover" is content with the compromise

& will be sticking around beyond this season.

Yes we retain 4 players from our existing list.

Your top two gun players plus two existing players on your list born 1991 or after.

I think the piece your haven't quite got your head around is the 2 rookies must already be on your list in 2012.

These two players will not be additional selections in the next draft.

I hope this explains the changes a little clearer

By the way Jonno Brown a very handy pick up this week , your forward line is looking very potent.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Old Man Rivers

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

Fwiw I definitely think youn keepers should be1992. Players from 1991 wil turn 21 this year so I feel he u/21 rule is the best for young keeper! what is the point of having players like Sidebottom, hannebury, walker, fyfe as young keepers when hey wold be genuine keepers anyway.

I don't see the point in this young keeper rubbish, but like I said it doesn't phase me because the draft is what I look forward too most, it just means these league changes disadvantage people who did well enough in the draft to find 4 top notch keeper players, and my drafting technique would have been different as value of players is different. Players like crameri Who I took at 151 is less value than all of butcher, walker and darling yet when I picked him up he was and still is a legitimate keeper player, for example, but now excess to needs and changes my thinking. None of my players I have on my list fit the bill for this new rule as when the season tarted, it was not a rule! This says to me if we keep the keeper rule the only way to do it is based on the original 4 players, or the 2 players with 2 less than 100, this still means people can keep their young guns if they so choose as most of these players are outside the 100 anyway.

Of course ja, you like this young keepers rule being at 1991, shiels and fyfe are two genuine keepers in the age group.

[JACKATTACK 17]

If I had my way MM it would be 4 open keepers, and next year I would have considered making it 6.

I completely understand your thoughts about how you have drafted and how the mid season change disadvantages some people. But I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it was in the interests of the 18 coaches.

The disappointing and frustrating thing from my point of view is the consistant need for people to come on here and take pot shots at how I choose to run the league. I would like to think I embrace everyone's opinions and promote open and honest discussion, but I have my limits. Perhaps it is just a vocal minority due to fact it is an Internet forum but I have run another keeper league for years now and it has been nothing but a complete success. And that league is played for cash and has much harder luck stories than he ones on here.

As for the YOB being 1992, I can't agree. If anything I say it should be 1990 but 1991 seems to represent the view of the comp more so I'm happ to concede. And honestly I am not setting these rules out of self interest, i'm in a difficult position being a particiant and administrator. You will just have to trust me.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

So the 2 + 2 young players seems to be gaining traction with already 6 votes if you count RR's change of vote. And 7 if you count Dappas on count back.

I voted for keeping it 4. I changed it to 2+2 assuming the change came in at the end of next season. The whole fact that peoples' trading has been compromised has been glossed over completely here. As has the idea that we shouldn't ever allow protests of this kind to change rules mid season. If players are disgruntled, they can leave... Not change things mid season. It's a lovely idea that the 16/18 original teams stay, but I doubt it will be like that forever anyway.

I tend to agree with 1991.

Sucks to be Dappa: Scott selwood: 1990, Redden 1990

I traded Redden the day before all this kerfuffle. So yeah, now it "sucks to be me?"

I'm not at all happy with rule changes mid season. Democratic or otherwise. The rule change is a good one, and has a (barely) majority voting on it, but there was no option for changing it after next season. I actually had a foot in both camps. Maybe, given RR had some legitimate gripes a PP system would be a good idea given he had no real keepers... ie if your list has only 1 player ranked inside 50 then you get a PP at the start of next season. Or something... Being stuck with this system now.

But honestly I'm as over this as everyone else, and don't care enough to threaten to leave in a huff. But with respect I don't know that I'll be going on next year in this comp. This whole idea of changing stuff mid season to suit certain players and not others goes against the idea of it in the first place. JA is making the best of a bad situation, but I'll be taking a look at it at year's end and summing it up. And it doesn't help that I have TOOOO many fantasy footy teams banging around. It's one thing to draft badly and appeal for some sort of system to help you out. It's another thing to have played well and be in a good position, only to have people change stuff mid season, directly affecting other players... Who NOW if they kick up a stink will be labelled whingers.

I'll take another look at it at year's end. but something has to be done so THIS whole mess never happens again.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

If I had my way MM it would be 4 open keepers, and next year I would have considered making it 6.

I completely understand your thoughts about how you have drafted and how the mid season change disadvantages some people. But I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it was in the interests of the 18 coaches.

The disappointing and frustrating thing from my point of view is the consistant need for people to come on here and take pot shots at how I choose to run the league. I would like to think I embrace everyone's opinions and promote open and honest discussion, but I have my limits. Perhaps it is just a vocal minority due to fact it is an Internet forum but I have run another keeper league for years now and it has been nothing but a complete success. And that league is played for cash and has much harder luck stories than he ones on here.

As for the YOB being 1992, I can't agree. If anything I say it should be 1990 but 1991 seems to represent the view of the comp more so I'm happ to concede. And honestly I am not setting these rules out of self interest, i'm in a difficult position being a particiant and administrator. You will just have to trust me.

Yeah. I agree with the sentiment... I think it's a very tough thing to make 18 strangers happy... Noone's saying it isn't hard. And I think if someone decides to walk because they have a gripe, I reckon that should be ok. What did people think, that we'd all be here in 30 years still doing this? No. I think it only takes one person not embracing the game as it's intended (for example, keeper leagues) for it to come crashing down. As you say, the keeper idea has been embraced by 100% of coaches in other leagues, so it CAN work.

My only problem is that when RR came on here, with his legitimate gripes with the system, a mid season rule change was put to everyone... Personally, I don't think you should ever change things mid season. So subsequent to that you have RR and those who are sympathetic to him happy, but the ones who are now set back because of the change have to rethink their whole strategy. Had I known this was going to happen, I wouldn't have been so keen to hang on to Selwood for grim death, for example. And I would have drafted the 91s... we all would have. If it were me in RR's position, I for sure would have been [censored]... but given the rules are set out as they are, I would have kicked up a stink about changing the rules as soon as it can be done without affecting peoples' current list positions. In fact in other leagues that's generally how things have gone. There's some badly placed teams who are [censored], but in the end say: "rules are rules."

So like I say, there's no hard feelings. If the league votes for it, and it's ratified, noone could possibly accuse JA of doing anything but what he could in a bad situation. But I don't agree that its in the best interests of "all 18 players." It's in the interests of some. Like JA, I would have liked to have gone to 6, potentially 8 in coming years... But then I'm more about the trading and mid year list management than I am the draft. Some people love it for that one big day when you can possibly get ANY name in the league. That's fine too, just not as exciting in my opinion.

Each to their own. You can't please everyone, and if I'm out next year, then I hope no-one considers it's to do with hard feelings. Just a personal preference.

[JACKATTACK 17]

##########IMPORTANT############

I'm going to tie a know in this episode. After roughly 100 posts of sometimes heated debate, a poll, more debate and finally an acknowledgement on my behalf that it is what everyone wants and is therefore in the best interests of the league, I am making the following official rule change:

As was always the case, you will have the option of retaining 4 players (keepers) from this year's list to be taken into next year's list. These players will be chosen in the lead up to next year's draft.

The change as voted on by everyone is: 2 of your 4 keepers must have a birthday in 1991 or later (ie. young), the other 2 remain unrestricted and can be anyone from your list.

A far as i'm concerned this is the end of this saga. The rules will not change from here and you may strategise your trades and signings accordingly.

Thanks for everyone's input, if apathy is the death of fantasy footy then the last week has taught me that our league is alive and well.

I'd also like to extend my appreciation to the Ararat Prison Project for understanding the importance of the part I play in this league by shutting down for the last few weeks to allow me to dedicate my time to setting things straight.

My final word on the issue:

FFS guys be positive about this thing, there is a lot to like about what is going on here and the amount fo fun we have here is limited by the restricutions we place on ourselves. I can't keep everyone happy, sometimes you lose, sometimes you win, over the long run everyone will benefit equally and we'll all have fun.

Edited June 7, 2012 by JACKATTACK

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

If I had my way MM it would be 4 open keepers, and next year I would have considered making it 6.

I completely understand your thoughts about how you have drafted and how the mid season change disadvantages some people. But I wouldn't do it if I didn't think it was in the interests of the 18 coaches.

The disappointing and frustrating thing from my point of view is the consistant need for people to come on here and take pot shots at how I choose to run the league. I would like to think I embrace everyone's opinions and promote open and honest discussion, but I have my limits. Perhaps it is just a vocal minority due to fact it is an Internet forum but I have run another keeper league for years now and it has been nothing but a complete success. And that league is played for cash and has much harder luck stories than he ones on here.

Unintentional pot shot, exam revision and was frustrated! I definitely appreciate how you are running the league, and definitely know I couldn't do a better job, but through procrastination, and looking at people's lists this new keeper rule definitely has advantages for some and not so for others, with the 4 keeper rule I would have got to keep deledio, Franklin, Kennedy and Watson, now I get two of them, plus the leftovers of everyone else's 1991 players, Rhys Stanley is bloody born in december of 1990 haha!

You wouldn't be too upset going into next season with Ryder, Judd, fyfe and shiels!

Sorry for the whinge, I just has obvious draft choices that could have poised me well for this and next season as opposed to just this one

Edited June 8, 2012 by Mad_Melbourne

[jayceebee31 761]

You will have to check with Wooders - However I am fairly certain "The Range Rover" is content with the compromise

& will be sticking around beyond this season.

Yes we retain 4 players from our existing list.

Your top two gun players plus two existing players on your list born 1991 or after.

I think the piece your haven't quite got your head around is the 2 rookies must already be on your list in 2012.

These two players will not be additional selections in the next draft.

I hope this explains the changes a little clearer

By the way Jonno Brown a very handy pick up this week , your forward line is looking very potent.

Thanks for the support- just hope we change the 4 musketeer group also next year.Wecneed to have many things changed for next year and not during any said year. This is a complete joke IMO.

[H_T 3,049]

Message loud and clear JA. It's a privilege to be a part of the NSUFL. H_T Hurricanes will be managing its list in the full accordance of stipulated rules as decided by League members during the midseason AGM.

But just one query, 14/18 members have voted. At a guess, Eth, JLH, Watts Cook n, haven't voted. Do we wait ? Also, I thought it was mentioned that whatever were the two most popular voted there would be a ..... Or have I missed a post or two ?

[45HG 1,559]

Well done JA.

[H_T 3,049]

I see the majority in the UF site are pushing for 1990....

[Range Rover 1,935]

I see the majority in the UF site are pushing for 1990....

Majority? lol I love the way agendas are pushed about with generalized comments like this!

On a side note ... how does this new system work for the following season (2014)? Do we keep the four from 2013 or will we have to cull two to recruit two new rookies from 1992 ....

How's that going to work? Are you thinking (JA) it will be increased to 6 keepers by 2014?