On 18/07/2011 at 23:53, DemonWA said:

its more than he is worth

How can you be sure of that? In 5 years time, that kind of figure will be more the norm than the exception, and if the pundits who claim Scully is looking better than Ablett did at the same stage of his career are right, then you would have to think that it is pretty much on the mark. After almost 50 years in the wilderness, just what do you think a premiership is worth? You don't get a premiership without the cattle, and despite all of these admirable notions of loyalty and love of club, good cattle cost money.

  On 18/07/2011 at 23:23, rpfc said:

Yes, you have made a great deal of sense in this thread.

(Although that isn't comparatively difficult...)

But leave the jokes to rpfc...

I would use an emoticon if I used emoticons.

hehehe ... point take Sir ... I apologise. I will do my best in future. I will refrain from using an emoticons as a token of my regret.

  On 18/07/2011 at 23:53, DemonWA said:

its more than he is worth

That may be.

But you can plan on it. Which is the point.

We won't get into a bidding war because that is all we will offer.

And I would reckon that, a dodgy knee aside, Tom Scully will be worth $600k when he is 22, 23, and 24...

And depending on how the salary cap changes with the new CBA, he may be a value player at 22, 23, and 24.

  On 18/07/2011 at 23:28, belzebub59 said:

I'm just starting to wonder how much a kid with dodgy knees might really be worth.

As to Rhinos assertion that not much has changed in 5 months that's seems contrary to the reality.

We've got the club wanting to finalize all this . Even got Styges suspicious of all goings on, also GWE have gone public with the offer that seemed to have been doing the rounds in hushed circles for ages .

We've got the A F L showing it's real collies on the matter. There's the arguments for varying compensations and the absolute polarizing of fans left right and centre.

No, not much at all

ahhhh ... dont you love the power of the media. The old divide and conquer strategy still works without a bullet being shot in anger.

Reality according to who? Who are these "hushed circles"? GWS gone public with what?

What "varying" compensation? The criteria is set ... age & salary paid. Sure if you want to dispute it we have a disputes panel ... but lets hope we never get to that stage.

  On 18/07/2011 at 12:24, 36DD said:

So that means he's a dead cert to leave then...Barassi wore 31, Barassi left to join Carlton ...

Barassi joined Carlton, but he left the MFC to coach in the VFL and didn't want his coaching ambitions to undermine Norm Smith. He didn't leave to play for another club - although he was a playing coach.

I hope you understand the distinction.

  On 18/07/2011 at 14:36, belzebub59 said:

AFL ought to pay

Not sure if anyones noted this article yet .

An interesting idea though cant see it happening but hes actually got a point !~!

Ahhhh Eddie,

Is it me or has he gone:

"Collingwood players may go to GWS" - Eddie focuses on Melb/other teams not beign able to keep hold of players and feeding the fire for them to go and divert attention from his own

"Melb might win with Scully compo" - Maybe Collingwood is missing out and it's in their best interests to let somone go

"Melb is trying to keep scully so the benifit may still go to collingwood" - Backflip, maybe Melb should keep scully after all after all the are the oldest club in the league, we should help them!

Maybe he should be more worried about issues in his own nest

  On 18/07/2011 at 21:58, Ron Burgundy said:

There's one major problem with this analogy - that is, Scully won't need to work in a sports store at Knox City six days a week if he accepts the Dees' offer. He will immediately become one of the wealthiest 20 year olds in the country.Again, it's the intangibles that are difficult to explain to some.The interesting thing about this thread (among the not so interesting bits) is that there is a debate about modern sport - and the appropriateness of the differing motivations of players these days.In effect, some are saying - there should be some commitment to the club beyond the mere contractual terms. Others are saying, in effect, the players are professional athletes and won't be able to command these salaries forever - AFL is a ruthless game and clubs are not immune to disloyal behaviour, hence get the best terms you can while you can.There's no correct answer to this IMO - it just depends on one's own personal perspective.For me, I want to see our players bleed for the guernsey - I think this builds a top club culture - but I do respect that not all share this view.As an aside, I cannot see any good reason as to why Scully would not simply accept the Dees' offer if he, like Robbie Flower, wished to stay at the club to the exclusion of all others.As to the issue of 'mucking the cub around' - any business, club etc that manages cashflow wishes to have certainty in expenditure and income as far as possible. They hate the opposite - uncertainty in expenditure. I would've thought the club simply cannot negotiate many other player contracts whilst an offer of $3M over 5 years is on the table, though not accepted - and one that is uncertain to be accepted before, say, October this year. It's July now.This is virtually a science fact.

I don't disgree with this sentiment Ron, and am actually wondering as to others thoughts on this. Do you think the situation with Junior may have skewed Scullys sense of loyalty to the club? I still think he will stay, but perhaps the reason he is delaying is due to the fact that loyalty is something he cannot pinpoint when he has seen disloyalty coming back the other way. I too want to see our players bleed for the guernsey, but how can we demand this loyalty from the players, but accept it when it doesn't flow the other way? I know lots of people didn't accpet Juniors sacking happily, but surely we can see that if it is ok for the club to look after themselves first, it equally should be ok for the players to do the same. In five years time, I will expect loyalty from Scully because he will have been around long enough to build up said loyalty, however at the moment, he is a kid who grew up barracking for Richmond, got drafted to Melbourne, saw them shaft his first Captain at the end of his first season, and now has been put in a position to make a choice between loyalty or money. No easy decision for anyone to make IMO, and even more difficult for a 19 year old in a highly emotive environment.

  On 18/07/2011 at 15:08, why you little said:

By the end of 1986 the VFL had no money....all it had were a city of fans and a few shabby Football grounds. I miss the old days to, but you can't expect the players to run around for $20 a game anymore.

What the AFL have now is television money, this is not football money and its continuation cannot be guaranteed. It's like the housing market in Aus. with everyone walking round thinking they are millionaires. What we have now is several clubs - Port Adelaide, Richmond, Footscray, North Melbourne, Brisbane - millions in debt, (more so than the 80's) or with playing lists beyond the help of the compromised drafts. Whilst we have now 18 teams in a 'national' competition, in effect we have about six, with the rest just catching planes and delaying contract negotiations.

Didn't the decision to delay contract talks until September 2011 come before Junior was pushed?

I think that was the word coming out of the Velocity camp many months ago.

Of course, you don't have to believe that 'word' either but that does mean that all 'words' are not trustworthy...

  On 18/07/2011 at 23:28, belzebub59 said:

As to Rhinos assertion that not much has changed in 5 months that's seems contrary to the reality.

We've got the club wanting to finalize all this . Even got Styges suspicious of all goings on, also GWE have gone public with the offer that seemed to have been doing the rounds in hushed circles for ages .

We've got the A F L showing it's real collies on the matter. There's the arguments for varying compensations and the absolute polarizing of fans left right and centre.

No, not much at all

Well done Bub. My comment was in respect of ADC's turgid view of the world not changing. Thanks for your attempt at reality though.

  On 19/07/2011 at 01:06, The Tweed Pig said:

Barassi joined Carlton, but he left the MFC to coach in the VFL and didn't want his coaching ambitions to undermine Norm Smith. He didn't leave to play for another club - although he was a playing coach.

I hope you understand the distinction.

It cut both ways. Ron has always said that he didn't want the perception that it was Norm Smith pulling the strings in the background if he (Barassi) coached the Demons.

Has there ever been such a divisive issue on this forum ? If so I dont remember it.

Has any topic cuased such a fine distinction between the ability to utter your real thoughts and doing so apparently cross a divide the Owners dont want you to.

Is this kid really worth everything that he's mooted to be ? Hes played but a mere handful and a bit games yet many would suppose hes the be all and end alll of our future success. Melbournes aspiration will fold without Scully ?? wtf !!

The funny thing about any "the latest greatest thing " is theres always another one around the corner. I have no doubt he'll be a very good player. I also have no doubt we wil have many OTHER very fine and very good players. Some we dont even know yet !! I personally and seriously wonder if he'll really be worth the huge money as offered by GWS. Hes obviously worth the 3 mill we've offered . Might the club becoming a little skittish about it al lthough when you see a trend in injuries arising ? Could be a passing thing... could be recurring. Suddenly a littel ( or big ) Question Mark arises. ( does for me)

Is Scully's real value to this club now the currency with which we can acquire other very good talent off of the back of compensation especially at a time when stocks are to quite good and access to pick them low ?

Does the club really need this sort of crap ?

What impediment exists to his signing if indeed he actually wants to remain at Melbourne ? Im only an outsider but I cant see any. This flies in the face of his stated ideal of the "anticpation" that hed be a one club player. Easy to do Tom.. sign. Then everyone can get on with things.

He assures us that he knows of no approach or offers prior to the 'public' one now of GWS. He also suggests he doesnt know the contents of this offer. I simply find that incredulous and an insult to intelligence. But hey, he says so , so it must be true.

Theres a lot of body language that some could see as a total lack of involvement or committment or it could be his "professional" aloofness.

Im a bit like Ron B and want players ( once theyve signed on ) to bleed for the jumper, to make it theres and be proud to do so. Much is made of the weight of decision upon young Tom. Similar weights have been on more than a handful of similarly postion draftees and whilst the dollar amount might not be quite the same for some the important relatively to their careers is exactly the same. Theyve seemed quite able and happy to make their course known.

Like RR over I beleive something is very very wrong about all this. Not much adds up.

I now like some others firmly beleive that if the lad cant make a committment now then maybe the best thing for all parties is to move himon , allow his career to follow its course but elsewhere, for our great club to determine its future and to recruit others more desirious of wearing the red and blue especially as we enter our renaissance.

If its not appealling for him to come on board now...when ?

I applaud your talent Tom, I wish you well.. but sign or tell us whats really going on. Its not that hard...Its not !!

  On 19/07/2011 at 01:09, Kento80 said:

I don't disgree with this sentiment Ron, and am actually wondering as to others thoughts on this. Do you think the situation with Junior may have skewed Scullys sense of loyalty to the club? I still think he will stay, but perhaps the reason he is delaying is due to the fact that loyalty is something he cannot pinpoint when he has seen disloyalty coming back the other way. I too want to see our players bleed for the guernsey, but how can we demand this loyalty from the players, but accept it when it doesn't flow the other way? I know lots of people didn't accpet Juniors sacking happily, but surely we can see that if it is ok for the club to look after themselves first, it equally should be ok for the players to do the same. In five years time, I will expect loyalty from Scully because he will have been around long enough to build up said loyalty, however at the moment, he is a kid who grew up barracking for Richmond, got drafted to Melbourne, saw them shaft his first Captain at the end of his first season, and now has been put in a position to make a choice between loyalty or money. No easy decision for anyone to make IMO, and even more difficult for a 19 year old in a highly emotive environment.

Yep, I think there's a lot in that, Kento80. I've always thought the way Bailey handled Junior's 'retirement' was an unmitigated disaster for the club. (On this point, I know others differ.)

The effects of Junior's axing are still being felt IMO - and I suspect the club's handling of it would've had a major effect on an impressionable young player like Scully in his first season at an AFL club.

  On 19/07/2011 at 02:08, belzebub59 said:

I now like some others firmly beleive that if the lad cant make a committment now then maybe the best thing for all parties is to move himon , allow his career to follow its course but elsewhere, for our great club to determine its future and to recruit others more desirious of wearing the red and blue especially as we enter our renaissance.

If its not appealling for him to come on board now...when ?

I applaud your talent Tom, I wish you well.. but sign or tell us whats really going on. Its not that hard...Its not !!

What if he is being genuine?

He can't meet your challenge, can he?

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

And I don't think Tom Scully leaving will end our 'renaissance' but I do believe that he will be a da Vinci like fugure. The renaissance is still the renaissance but not as good without da Vinci...

  On 19/07/2011 at 01:33, rpfc said:

Didn't the decision to delay contract talks until September 2011 come before Junior was pushed?I think that was the word coming out of the Velocity camp many months ago.Of course, you don't have to believe that 'word' either but that does mean that all 'words' are not trustworthy...

I am not sure on that rpfc, but you are probably correct. Whilst that may have not been the reason for delaying talks, it still may be a factor taken into consideration since Junior left. I'm firmly on your side in this debate, just wondering as to the level we can expect loyalty from the players when it suits us.

  On 19/07/2011 at 02:10, Ron Burgundy said:

Yep, I think there's a lot in that, Kento80. I've always thought the way Bailey handled Junior's 'retirement' was an unmitigated disaster for the club. (On this point, I know others differ.)The effects of Junior's axing are still being felt IMO - and I suspect the club's handling of it would've had a major effect on an impressionable young player like Scully in his first season at an AFL club.

My thoughts too. I imagine Junior would have been a great figure for these kids to look up to in their first year. He always gave 110%, and would have had quite an impression. So to see him moved on at the end of that first year, I believe, would have shown these kids a pretty cold reality about the world in which they live. I am not raising this to condemn the club over it, because I feel that it has been done, and long term probably not caused much harm, but surely it has to have some effect on Toms thinking in the situation he is in. And I do believe that this makes a case for him taking his time to make the right decision for himself, which is also the reason that I believe he will stay.

  On 19/07/2011 at 01:28, bush demon said:

What the AFL have now is television money, this is not football money and its continuation cannot be guaranteed. It's like the housing market in Aus. with everyone walking round thinking they are millionaires. What we have now is several clubs - Port Adelaide, Richmond, Footscray, North Melbourne, Brisbane - millions in debt, (more so than the 80's) or with playing lists beyond the help of the compromised drafts. Whilst we have now 18 teams in a 'national' competition, in effect we have about six, with the rest just catching planes and delaying contract negotiations.

With all due respects it Media Rights ... not just "television money".

But no doubt you are right approximately 12 teams have failed to fully grasp as a club where we are at 2011 ... many prefer to live in a different era.

  On 19/07/2011 at 02:10, Ron Burgundy said:

I've always thought the way Bailey handled Junior's 'retirement' was an unmitigated disaster for the club.

It wasn't handled well, but 'unmitigated disaster' is a huge exaggeration. It may well have no long-term effects whatsoever.

Ok,

I am a believer that Tom will stay and be great for this club.

But, (correct me if im wrong)

Why would it only take one week directly after this year for Tom and his manager to make up their minds to where he is playing football for the next 5 years?

Surely if they are not talking about it for the whole year, they would give him longer then a week to make a career defining move?

And if he doesn't need that much time, couldn't he think about it over the next 2 weeks and get on with his job?

A lot of signs point to GWS

I would have thought the Jnr issue more relevant to those ending a career, not starting one. Toms likely to have a dozen years ( barring injury) before confronting that and ever likely many different people to be involved with his egress should he still be at Melb. A non issue in this instance.

  On 19/07/2011 at 02:39, daveytrain1 said:

Ok,

I am a believer that Tom will stay and be great for this club.

But, (correct me if im wrong)

Why would it only take one week directly after this year for Tom and his manager to make up their minds to where he is playing football for the next 5 years?

Surely if they are not talking about it for the whole year, they would give him longer then a week to make a career defining move?

And if he doesn't need that much time, couldn't he think about it over the next 2 weeks and get on with his job?

A lot of signs point to GWS

That one week idea came from a Blucher interview on 6PR where Brad Hardie mentioned the timeframe of a week or a fortnight and Blucher agreed.

I hardly think that one can read a significant amount into that statement, but I guess that is why I believe what I believe...

  On 19/07/2011 at 02:43, belzebub59 said:

I would have thought the Jnr issue more relevant to those ending a career, not starting one. Toms likely to have a dozen years ( barring injury) before confronting that and ever likely many different people to be involved with his egress should he still be at Melb. A non issue in this instance.

Loyalty is the question, not Junior himself. If so many on here can question Toms loyalty, surely he has the right to consider how loyal the club was to its Captain?

  On 19/07/2011 at 00:04, old55 said:

I prefer that Range Rover has come out and owned his opinion - I don't agree with it but it's his right to hold it and express it.

What I don't like is insinuation and its associated lack of courage.

+1

I disagree with RR's take but there was no ambiguity at all.I could successful argue RR's case as he hasnt been illogical and has taken all his opinions to their logical conclusion.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/118875/default.aspx

Check this link it seems Daniel Rich, Matthew Leunberger and 3 others signed with Lions. isn't Rich and Leunberger suppossed to sign with Giants. Which made me think Giants might not have had any approach to any player at all that media think. For example like Tom Scully until the manager of Tom Scully asked Giants to show their offer which they did. So at the end i think the only reason Sculls manager asked a offer to scully because of Media frenzy that said GWS interest in scully which makes me really mad about certain tabloid media.

  On 19/07/2011 at 02:08, belzebub59 said:

Has there ever been such a divisive issue on this forum ? If so I dont remember it.

Has any topic cuased such a fine distinction between the ability to utter your real thoughts and doing so apparently cross a divide the Owners dont want you to.

Is this kid really worth everything that he's mooted to be ? Hes played but a mere handful and a bit games yet many would suppose hes the be all and end alll of our future success. Melbournes aspiration will fold without Scully ?? wtf !!

The funny thing about any "the latest greatest thing " is theres always another one around the corner. I have no doubt he'll be a very good player. I also have no doubt we wil have many OTHER very fine and very good players. Some we dont even know yet !! I personally and seriously wonder if he'll really be worth the huge money as offered by GWS. Hes obviously worth the 3 mill we've offered . Might the club becoming a little skittish about it al lthough when you see a trend in injuries arising ? Could be a passing thing... could be recurring. Suddenly a littel ( or big ) Question Mark arises. ( does for me)

Is Scully's real value to this club now the currency with which we can acquire other very good talent off of the back of compensation especially at a time when stocks are to quite good and access to pick them low ?

Does the club really need this sort of crap ?

What impediment exists to his signing if indeed he actually wants to remain at Melbourne ? Im only an outsider but I cant see any. This flies in the face of his stated ideal of the "anticpation" that hed be a one club player. Easy to do Tom.. sign. Then everyone can get on with things.

He assures us that he knows of no approach or offers prior to the 'public' one now of GWS. He also suggests he doesnt know the contents of this offer. I simply find that incredulous and an insult to intelligence. But hey, he says so , so it must be true.

Theres a lot of body language that some could see as a total lack of involvement or committment or it could be his "professional" aloofness.

Im a bit like Ron B and want players ( once theyve signed on ) to bleed for the jumper, to make it theres and be proud to do so. Much is made of the weight of decision upon young Tom. Similar weights have been on more than a handful of similarly postion draftees and whilst the dollar amount might not be quite the same for some the important relatively to their careers is exactly the same. Theyve seemed quite able and happy to make their course known.

Like RR over I beleive something is very very wrong about all this. Not much adds up.

I now like some others firmly beleive that if the lad cant make a committment now then maybe the best thing for all parties is to move himon , allow his career to follow its course but elsewhere, for our great club to determine its future and to recruit others more desirious of wearing the red and blue especially as we enter our renaissance.

If its not appealling for him to come on board now...when ?

I applaud your talent Tom, I wish you well.. but sign or tell us whats really going on. Its not that hard...Its not !!

Well put. It is also important to acknowledge that the 'realists' on this thread are not anti-Melbourne, anti-Tom or anti-anyone-with-opposing-viewpoints. The club is bigger than the individual, and the post is bigger than the posters.

  On 19/07/2011 at 02:08, belzebub59 said:

Has there ever been such a divisive issue on this forum ? If so I dont remember it.

Has any topic cuased such a fine distinction between the ability to utter your real thoughts and doing so apparently cross a divide the Owners dont want you to.

Is this kid really worth everything that he's mooted to be ? Hes played but a mere handful and a bit games yet many would suppose hes the be all and end alll of our future success. Melbournes aspiration will fold without Scully ?? wtf !!

The funny thing about any "the latest greatest thing " is theres always another one around the corner. I have no doubt he'll be a very good player. I also have no doubt we wil have many OTHER very fine and very good players. Some we dont even know yet !! I personally and seriously wonder if he'll really be worth the huge money as offered by GWS. Hes obviously worth the 3 mill we've offered . Might the club becoming a little skittish about it al lthough when you see a trend in injuries arising ? Could be a passing thing... could be recurring. Suddenly a littel ( or big ) Question Mark arises. ( does for me)

Is Scully's real value to this club now the currency with which we can acquire other very good talent off of the back of compensation especially at a time when stocks are to quite good and access to pick them low ?

Does the club really need this sort of crap ?

What impediment exists to his signing if indeed he actually wants to remain at Melbourne ? Im only an outsider but I cant see any. This flies in the face of his stated ideal of the "anticpation" that hed be a one club player. Easy to do Tom.. sign. Then everyone can get on with things.

He assures us that he knows of no approach or offers prior to the 'public' one now of GWS. He also suggests he doesnt know the contents of this offer. I simply find that incredulous and an insult to intelligence. But hey, he says so , so it must be true.

Theres a lot of body language that some could see as a total lack of involvement or committment or it could be his "professional" aloofness.

Im a bit like Ron B and want players ( once theyve signed on ) to bleed for the jumper, to make it theres and be proud to do so. Much is made of the weight of decision upon young Tom. Similar weights have been on more than a handful of similarly postion draftees and whilst the dollar amount might not be quite the same for some the important relatively to their careers is exactly the same. Theyve seemed quite able and happy to make their course known.

Like RR over I beleive something is very very wrong about all this. Not much adds up.

I now like some others firmly beleive that if the lad cant make a committment now then maybe the best thing for all parties is to move himon , allow his career to follow its course but elsewhere, for our great club to determine its future and to recruit others more desirious of wearing the red and blue especially as we enter our renaissance.

If its not appealling for him to come on board now...when ?

I applaud your talent Tom, I wish you well.. but sign or tell us whats really going on. Its not that hard...Its not !!

Great post. My thoughts exactly... not questioning the kids honesty but this whole saga has been an unnecessary burden on everybody involved at the club.