We need a full-forward to kick 8

[tonatopia 278]

i seem to remember teddy hopkins kicked a bag in a half in a gf

didn't turn him into a star goalkicker

I think jamar has the tools to kick bags of goals. I think he is the best mark for anyone his size in the afl. He just needs to improve his kicking.

[RudeBoy 164]

With Jamar spending more time in the goal square when he returns and Watts beginning to find form as a key forward, Liam Jurrah will be unstoppable. He's already kicking 3 goals each week in a poor forward structure. Throw in Jamar and i reckon Liam will get another 2 goals each week.

[Fork 'em 6,527]

Power Forwards who can take contested marks are massive in big high pressure games .

With the stakes high there are alot of Hail Mary's into the forward line from mids that are under great pressure.

Having 1 or 2 inside fiddy who can take strong marks are Gold .

[The Chazz 4,077]

Power Forwards who can take contested marks are massive in big high pressure games .

With the stakes high there are alot of Hail Mary's into the forward line from mids that are under great pressure.

Having 1 or 2 inside fiddy who can take strong marks are Gold .

Exactly right Fork, and to be honest, they don't even need to take strong marks, providing we have good crumbers.

On the other hand, imagine a forward line without those bigger forwards, especially in those pressure games when the Hail Mary's are flying around. Medium size forwards, ie Petterd, will get out marked more often than not, especially up against bigger defenders.

I've posted a few times on this thread, but haven't really answered the OP. No, we don't need a full forward who can kick 8 in a game. Jurrah in my opinion is the only one on our list that has shown enough X factor to kick a bag like that, maybe Watts will one day too, but to say Jurrah is a full forward is not a smart move. We still need a Full Forward, Martin/Jamar are looking like the perfect options.

[Rogue 585]

Jurrah in my opinion is the only one on our list that has shown enough X factor to kick a bag like that, maybe Watts will one day too

With good delivery, most guys can kick two goals per quarter. That'll get you to eight goals a game if you keep it up.

[The Chazz 4,077]

With good delivery, most guys can kick two goals per quarter. That'll get you to eight goals a game if you keep it up.

When was the last time a Geelong player kicked 8 in a game? They'd have the best delivery inside 50 in the league wouldn't they? Stevie J has the X factor, that generally players need to kick bags like that, hence my Jurrah call. Josh Kennedy would be an exception to that X factor rule.

[Rogue 585]

When was the last time a Geelong player kicked 8 in a game? They'd have the best delivery inside 50 in the league wouldn't they? Stevie J has the X factor, that generally players need to kick bags like that, hence my Jurrah call. Josh Kennedy would be an exception to that X factor rule.

I'd wager that if Mooney could kick straight he'd have kicked eight multiple times.

David Neitz kicked eight goals or more five times and he isn't a player I think of when I think of Johnson/Jurrah 'X-factor'.

[Striker475 696]

When was the last time a Geelong player kicked 8 in a game? They'd have the best delivery inside 50 in the league wouldn't they? Stevie J has the X factor, that generally players need to kick bags like that, hence my Jurrah call. Josh Kennedy would be an exception to that X factor rule.

Funnily enough, didn't Stevie J kick 8 vs GC?

[The Chazz 4,077]

Funnily enough, didn't Stevie J kick 8 vs GC?

7 - a career best.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I'd wager that if Mooney could kick straight he'd have kicked eight multiple times.

David Neitz kicked eight goals or more five times and he isn't a player I think of when I think of Johnson/Jurrah 'X-factor'.

1 - He hasn't played for a few years

2 - I said "generally". Kennedy is the only player I can think, especialll that has played modern football that has kicked a bag of 8 or more and doesn't have that excitement that Jurrah or Stevie J has. Jack Reiwoldt has got it, so too Le Cras (in my opinion).

TBH Rogue, Mooney hasn't kicked straight so what's the point in bringing that up? it's an irrelvant argument.

Edited June 8, 2011 by billy2803

[Rogue 585]

1 - He hasn't played for a few years

2 - I said "generally". Kennedy is the only player I can think, especialll that has played modern football that has kicked a bag of 8 or more and doesn't have that excitement that Jurrah or Stevie J has. Jack Reiwoldt has got it, so too Le Cras (in my opinion).

I recognise you said 'generally' - I simply provided another example of someone without Jurrah/Johnson-style 'X-factor' that has kicked 8.

I figure that if there are enough examples of players without the Jurrah/Johnson 'X factor' you might revisit your contention. (An alternative I didn't think of is that you might widen the scope of 'X factor' ).

Neitz might not have played for a few years but I don't keep track of the goal PBs of players from other teams (or even our own) and I can't be bothered looking up stats on goal kickers.

That said, I reckon Hale kicked eight versus Geelong one day and he isn't someone I'd say has 'X-factor' of Jurrah/Johnson, so there's another. I'm sure there are moe.

TBH Rogue, Mooney hasn't kicked straight so what's the point in bringing that up? it's an irrelvant argument.

TBH it's very relevant since you tried to argue that Geelong of recent years supports your argument that 'X-factor' is needed, with good delivery not enough.

My rebuttal is that this since someone like Mooney has had ample opportunity to kick 8 goals without 'X-factor', good delivery is indeed enough - simply having someone who doesn't need to see a Psychologist about kicking straight for goal would have resulted in an 8-goal bag somewhere along the line.

The fact that he has not kicked eight goals has nothing to do with 'X-Factor' - the delivery gave him opportunity to kick eight and the fault was with executing a basic skill, not a lack of 'X factor'.

(NB: No disrespect to Mooney for seeing a Psychologist regarding kicking - I simply mention it to indicate the degree of difficulty he endured when kicking for goal).

Anyway, with the Le Cras and Reiwoldt 'X-factor' claim it seems like your definition of 'X-factor' might get so wide it will cover almost everyone who kicks 8, so it becomes a bit pointless.

[The Chazz 4,077]

TBH it's very relevant since you tried to argue that Geelong of recent years supports your argument that X-factor is needed. My rebuttal is that it doesn't, since someone like Mooney has had ample opportunity to kick 8 goals without 'X-factor'. Simply having someone who doesn't need to see a Psychologist about kicking straight for goal would have resulted in an 8-goal bag.

Furthermore, with the Le Cras and Reiwoldt X-factor claim it seems like your definition of 'X-factor' is going to get so wide it will cover almost everyone who kicks 8, so it becomes a moot discussion.

Well, if you are going to take inaccuracy in to the equation, Jurrah has had 1 opportunity to kick 8, and even Dunn has had opportunities to kick bags of 6's. Are you one of those people that are saying that if Mooney kicked straight in the GF against the Hawks that they would've won? Well, guess what, he didn't and they didn't.

I don't actually think there are too many other players in the league that have that X Factor. And, over the past 5 years, how many players have kicked bags of 8? Of those that have, I believe most of them have it.

I don't know what your point is Rogue.

[Rogue 585]

I don't know what your point is Rogue.

...it's that you don't need 'X factor'.

...you tried to argue that Geelong of recent years supports your argument that 'X-factor' is needed, with good delivery not enough.

My rebuttal is that this since someone like Mooney has had ample opportunity to kick 8 goals without 'X-factor', good delivery is indeed enough - simply having someone who doesn't need to see a Psychologist about kicking straight for goal would have resulted in an 8-goal bag somewhere along the line.

In addition to Kennedy here are some current AFL footballers who have kicked eight goals:

Hale, Hall, Roughead, Riewoldt, Brown Pavlich and Bradshaw.

How many of them have Jurrah-style 'X factor'?

If you're going to say all/most, we may as well just replace the phrase 'X factor' with 'good'.

Fwiw, I disagree that Le Cras has Jurrah-style 'X factor', so I'd say he's another.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Rogue, my points that I have made clear in this thread are;

- Generally, to kick 8 goals in a game requires a certain X Factor about them, or genuine class (thinking about N Reiwoldt, J Brown, L Franklin and even back to the Neitz days, and even back to Carey). There are of course exceptions, Josh Kennedy for 1, and as you pointed out, David Hale is another, but generally, it is rare for thost types of players to kick bags.

- In response to the OP, I don't believe we need a full forward to be able to kick a bag of 8. I think we have got a couple of players who have the ability to do it, Jurrah at the moment, and maybe Watts in the near future.

- I strongly believe that we need 2 bigger-bodied KPF's to help our team win a premiership. Looking at Watts, he should be 1, especially with a couple of more preseasons in the gym. We still need 1 more in my "ideal team". For over 18 months I have called for Stef Martin to be our Full Forward, which goes against what the OP is asking for. Stef doesn't have either the X Factor or the class (of those named above) to expect an 8 goal haul from at some stage each season, but we don't need him to.

- Further to the above point, I listed the past decades premiership winning teams, and how their forward structure looks with twin towers. Only one side has won a flag (in the past decade) without a genuine 2nd big forward, and that was Sydney. Again, I need to make it clear that these players don't need to be dominant (as pointed out - Geelong didn't have 2 dominant key forwards). But to say that having a premier midfield is more imporant to winning a flag than anything, my only response to that is that it is a part of it. We have the makings of a premier midfield, our backline is virtually there already, so now we just need that extra big body (ie Stef Martin) to play Full Forward.

From what I can read, I don't think I have made any other comments outside that belief. I have been of that opinion for many years now, and think we need to address immediately (which we may have seen last Friday night when Gawn started at Full Forward). Even through the years of having Neitz and Robbo as our forwards, not once did I have the confidence that we could win a flag with those 2 as our key forwards, Neitz - yes, Robbo - no. An extra tall in that forward line would've seen Robbo make a much better player.

I'm sure Rouge you will find points to argue about in that. I await your response.

[Rogue 585]

When was the last time a Geelong player kicked 8 in a game? They'd have the best delivery inside 50 in the league wouldn't they? Stevie J has the X factor, that generally players need to kick bags like that, hence my Jurrah call.

Funnily enough, didn't Stevie J kick 8 vs GC?

7 - a career best.

Ironically, guess who else has a career best of seven goals?

<Drum roll>

It is indeed Cameron Mooney, and it wasn't against Gold Coast either.

(There are also other players who have kicked seven without 'X factor', like Schulz and Tippett).

[Rogue 585]

Rogue, my points that I have made clear in this thread are;

- Generally, to kick 8 goals in a game requires a certain X Factor about them, or genuine class (thinking about N Reiwoldt, J Brown, L Franklin and even back to the Neitz days, and even back to Carey). There are of course exceptions, Josh Kennedy for 1, and as you pointed out, David Hale is another, but generally, it is rare for thost types of players to kick bags.

I just looked at every post you've made in this thread and I can only see an assertion that a player generally needs 'X Factor' to kick 8 - nothing about the 'or genuine class' bit. Until now, that is - I reckon you've changed your tune. You're now stating the obvious, admitting that Jurrah-style 'X factor' isn't needed.

Obviously it's not often the case that players without 'X Factor' or 'genuine class' kick eight, since it barely ever happens and is difficult to do. I was never asserting otherwise - the point I've been making is that you don't need Jurrah-style 'X Factor' and you now seem to agree.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Ironically, guess who else has a career best of seven goals?

<Drum roll>

It is indeed Cameron Mooney, and it wasn't against Gold Coast either.

(There are also other players who have kicked seven without 'X factor', like Schulz and Tippett).

Mooney has kicked one bag of 7 in a 200+ game career. Throw in there a couple of bags of 5. He doesn't have X Factor, and I don't put him in the class of Brown, Reiwoldt, etc.

Tippett has done it once.

I was under the impression that the OP wanted someone to do it more often than once in their career.

Out of Tippett, Mooney and Jurrah, who would you consider most likely to kick a bag of 8 and why?

[The Chazz 4,077]

I just looked at every post you've made in this thread and I can only see an assertion that a player generally needs 'X Factor' to kick 8 - nothing about the 'or genuine class' bit. Until now, that is - I reckon you've changed your tune. You're now stating the obvious, admitting that Jurrah-style 'X factor' isn't needed.

Obviously it's not often the case that players without 'X Factor' or 'genuine class' kick eight, since it barely ever happens and is difficult to do. I was never asserting otherwise - the point I've been making is that you don't need Jurrah-style 'X Factor' and you now seem to agree.

It's the only bit I added extra in that post, but you still disagree by throwing up names like Hale, Tippett, Schulz, etc. The main reason I put it in there because you don't believe Le Cras or J Reiwoldt have that X Factor, which I think they do, so it made me start another category to ease your mind.

To me you're saying that providing we have good forward entries, anyone on our team can kick 8. I disagree. It generally takes special players to be able to do it more than once.

[Rogue 585]

It's the only bit I added extra in that post, but you still disagree by throwing up names like Hale, Tippett, Schulz, etc.

Look at the timestamp. The post in which I referred to Schulz was at virtually the same time as you made a post adding the 'class' qualifier. Even if you didn't see the timestamp, you might have noticed that I quoted posts that were made earlier in the thread.

It's pretty clear that my next post was in response to your 'class' qualifier, given that it quoted that post.

to be able to do it more than once.

The goal posts keep moving. I feel like Cameron Mooney lining up for goal.

As a reminder, here's the assertion that I disagreed with:

Jurrah in my opinion is the only one on our list that has shown enough X factor to kick a bag like that, maybe Watts will one day too

Now that you've modified your contention I don't disagree with it, as I made clear here:

[The Chazz 4,077]

Look at the timestamp. The post in which I referred to Schulz was at virtually the same time as you made a post adding the 'class' qualifier. Even if you didn't see the timestamp, you might have noticed that I quoted posts that were made earlier in the thread.

It's pretty clear that my next post was in response to your 'class' qualifier, given that it quoted that post.

The goal posts keep moving. I feel like Cameron Mooney lining up for goal.

As a reminder, here's the assertion that I disagreed with:

Now that you've modified your contention I don't disagree with it, as I made clear here:

Maybe you need to go and see your psychologist then.

You can use that "time stamp" arguement if you like, I was actually typing my post while you posted yours. I didn't see what you had written until I had displayed mine. Chances are you wont believe that, but I couldn't give a stuff to be honest.

I am not modifying my contention - I still believe that players with X Factor are more likely to kick regular bags than those that don't have it. I have thrown in the Class factor too (albeit later in the conversation). So if you want to call that modifying, go ahead.

I will pull you up on your comment about getting good delivery forward should make it easy to kick 8 in a game (2 per quarter). Mooney, who has neither X Factor or Class (in my opinion), has had probably the best delivery out of most in recent times, and he has never kicked that easily achievable 2 goals per quarter. But, you use a silly comment about kicking straight. Maybe you should modify your statement that forwards receiving good delivery should easily have 2 scoring shots per quarter.

[Rogue 585]

I am not modifying my contention - I still believe that players with X Factor are more likely to kick regular bags than those that don't have it.

That wasn't the contention I replied to.

First, you said a bag, not multiple bags.

Second, you said it was necessary* to have X Factor, not that it made you more likely.

*You later said 'generally', which I think is fair enough. It didn't change my view that you had it wrong, though.

I have thrown in the Class factor too (albeit later in the conversation). So if you want to call that modifying, go ahead.

Once I looked at the stats and chucked up about six names of players who have kicked eight and don't have Jurrah-style 'X Factor' you added the qualifier.

Since my whole point was that Jurrah-style 'X Factor' is not required, changing your contention to 'X Factor or class' is certainly modifying the contention.

You're now stating the obvious and I never would have disagreed if that was your original contention.

[The Chazz 4,077]

...it's that you don't need 'X factor'.

In addition to Kennedy here are some current AFL footballers who have kicked eight goals:

Hale, Hall, Roughead, Riewoldt, Brown Pavlich and Bradshaw.

How many of them have Jurrah-style 'X factor'?

If you're going to say all/most, we may as well just replace the phrase 'X factor' with 'good'.

Fwiw, I disagree that Le Cras has Jurrah-style 'X factor', so I'd say he's another.

I actually did say that I think Watts would have the ability to kick 8 in years to come too. Does he have the Jurrah X-Factor? I don't think he does. but he certainly does have an X Factor about him.

Looks like we are finally agreeing, my definition of X Factor is different to yours. Judd has X Factor, it's the definition of "X" that is proving to be the issue. Jurrah's X Factor, in my view, is differnt to the Stevie-J X Factor.

My resistence to accept anything you have said in this thread Rogue is based on your comment at #67, so I apologise.

[Striker475 696]

Now that I think about it, Jack Riewoldt kicked ten in a game last year as well. He'll be the type to kick ten a couple more times as well.

[The Chazz 4,077]

That wasn't the contention I replied to.

First, you said a bag, not multiple bags.

Second, you said it was necessary* to have X Factor, not that it made you more likely.

*You later said 'generally', which I think is fair enough. It didn't change my view that you had it wrong, though.

Once I looked at the stats and chucked up about six names of players who have kicked eight and don't have Jurrah-style 'X Factor' you added the qualifier.

Since my whole point was that Jurrah-style 'X Factor' is not required, changing your contention to 'X Factor or class' is certainly modifying the contention.

You're now stating the obvious and I never would have disagred if that was your original contention.

You've proved that anyone can kick a bag of 8, but I quickly changed that to bags, which happened before you started naming names. I did this because I don't think the OP wanted a flash in the pan, I'm pretty sure they wanted someone who could do it more than once.

I don't recall saying necessary to have X Factor, I'm pretty sure the word generally has been used in my posts right from the start. For my benefit, can you tell me what post number I said that?

Hopefully you haven't misquoted me anywhere Rogue. I'm more than happy to accept your comments if you can show where I have made these statements.

[Rogue 585]

I actually did say that I think Watts would have the ability to kick 8 in years to come too. Does he have the Jurrah X-Factor? I don't think he does. but he certainly does have an X Factor about him.

Looks like we are finally agreeing, my definition of X Factor is different to yours. Judd has X Factor, it's the definition of "X" that is proving to be the issue. Jurrah's X Factor, in my view, is differnt to the Stevie-J X Factor.

Okay.

Like I think I said earlier, this makes 'X Factor' cover almost every player who will kick eight so it becomes a bit of a circular contention.