Michael Voss

[pitchfork 181]

Probably should have posted this a while ago, but it's even more appropriate right now.

Amon Buchanan (Sydney Swans) for PICK 28,

Brent Staker and round three pick (West Coast) for Bradd Dalziell

Xavier Clarke and pick 39 (St Kilda) for Pick 47 and 60

Andrew Raines (Richmond) for Pick 44

Brendan Fevola and Pick 27(Carlton) for Lachlan Henderson Pick 12

Also picked up Matt Macguire via PSD

Let Bradshaw go

Sure after 4 games Voss looked a genius, but since then he's gone 1-11.

The decision to roll the dice says Voss truly believed that Brisbane were ready NOW.

This current team has to finish top four next year to justify this...otherwise he has simply put the team back about 4 years.

Could have bottomed out with an extra 8 young kids running around and getting experience - they would also have been cheaper overall

With the GC now competing for Queensland youngsters Voss should get the sack - Or be relieved of List management responsibilities

Is there a coach that has ruined their list voluntarily like this?

[MadAsHell 4,215]

Probably should have posted this a while ago, but it's even more appropriate right now.

Amon Buchanan (Sydney Swans) for PICK 28,

Brent Staker and round three pick (West Coast) for Bradd Dalziell

Xavier Clarke and pick 39 (St Kilda) for Pick 47 and 60

Andrew Raines (Richmond) for Pick 44

Brendan Fevola and Pick 27(Carlton) for Lachlan Henderson Pick 12

Also picked up Matt Macguire via PSD

Let Bradshaw go

Sure after 4 games Voss looked a genius, but since then he's gone 1-11.

The decision to roll the dice says Voss truly believed that Brisbane were ready NOW.

This current team has to finish top four next year to justify this...otherwise he has simply put the team back about 4 years.

Could have bottomed out with an extra 8 young kids running around and getting experience - they would also have been cheaper overall

With the GC now competing for Queensland youngsters Voss should get the sack - Or be relieved of List management responsibilities

Is there a coach that has ruined their list voluntarily like this?

I feel sorry for Vossy some what. Brisbane made a semi final last year and with Black & Power nearing the end and a battle scaed Brown inside his last 5 years possibly he had to make a decission to either rebuild with the compromising drafts coming up or try and pinh a flag with smart recruting.

Lets face it if Fevola and Staker had of kept their form going, Clarke, Raines and Maguire were able to regain their best form and Buchanan to play as the handy goal sneek it would of looked very good.

However Fevola's been very inconsistent, Clarke hasn't got on the park, Raines has been ok at best and Buchanan hasn't provided them anything a 1st year draft pick couldn't. Staker and Maguire have been pretty good for them although Muaguire's struggled with injury recently also.

I do worry about Brisbane long term and think they will now be a team to miss the finals for at least the next 5 years while they rebuild. Whether Vossy survives that entire time or not I'm not to sure?

[e25 5]

All he really traded away was a handful of late picks, pick 12, Henderson and Dalziell (who was desperate to go home to WA).

Bradshaw was an unfortunate casualty, but he'd have been retired soon anyway.

Really, they may look crap now, but I don't think the Lions gave up a lot to get those mature players.

If Buchanan, Staker and Clarke were delisted at season's end, they wouldn't have really lost a lot other than the chance to have a few extra longshots kids on their list.

Henderson and pick 12 (ended up being Kane Lucas) are the 2 that hurt, but a list isn't made or broken on the back of 2 players.

I think it's all a classic case of people massively overrating a crappy list.

That's why I predicted on this forum in preseason that they wouldn't make the 8 and endured the taunts.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Terry Wallace.

Voss took over a list that had its key elements for a flag Black, Brown and Power in their final years of football. Its a list that has a number of question marks like TJ, Brennan etc. Their list was not perfect by any means. And barring Brown Black and Power was potentially looking at a rebuild for the next generation of stars.

Voss has gambled that these ready to play footballers would complement the side in making a run for the flag with Brown. Its a big gamble. Especially recruiting Fevola to try and squeeze the last opportunities and leverage the best out of Fevola and Co.

It has not worked with Brown injured, Black too, Fev gone missing and the weaknesses of the side exposed. If they dont get it sorted within 12 months, Voss will be in Knights position.

[Demons 32 235]

It hasn't been great..... But it hasn't been all bad.

Staker has been really good for them in my opinion, you can't fault his season, he deserves his spot over a kid.

Goose is ok, but as we all knew, he is injury prone and it hurts them.

I think Voss deserves the chance at redemption next season regardless, lets face the facts, the Lions have been hit pretty bad with injuries this season.

Injuries to Brown, Black, Fev, Patfull, Drummond, Merrett and Goose have hurt them alot. The first 6 in that list would be in the clubs top 10 players in my opinion, so losing all of them at different points throughout the season would really hurt.

Couple that with erratic performances by Fev, TJ and Brennan and they have had it rough.

They have the talent to be a finals chance next season, because while they have alot of older players they are getting games into young guys to... Such as Banfield, Rockliff, Rich and Leunberger taking on number 1 ruck duties.

It is far from good, but it is also not terrible...... yet.

Bottom line is they will not win a flag with these guys, as im pretty certain their big 3 (Brown, Black, Power) will all be declining pretty quickly over the next few years.

Finals next season, wheels falling off after that.

[Damo 3,374]

it would seem to me that a lot of their woes has to do with the hardest surface of any ground in the AFL.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Thats also a very good point Franky playing on the Etihad of the North.

Fair assessment of their list Demon 32.

[jnrmac 20,186]

The decision to recruit Pergola and offer up Bradshaw was by far the worst decision Voss Made. Cost them a lot and gained nothing on the field. Tore the fabric of the club with Bradshaw's treatment. AND they got a mindless troublemaking bogan.

Rolled the dice and lost badly. Others have tried before Voss to do a similar thing. Only Roos and to a lesser extent Lyon have succeeded IMO.

I personally have never seen anything to say Voss can coach. COuldn't understand the frenzy when he was touted as being available.I LOVED the fact that Essendon panicked and sacked Sheedy and were then forced to take Knights. But Voss has no coaching experience and was a huge risk. It failed.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The decision to recruit Pergola and offer up Bradshaw was by far the worst decision Voss Made. Cost them a lot and gained nothing on the field. Tore the fabric of the club with Bradshaw's treatment. AND they got a mindless troublemaking bogan.

Rolled the dice and lost badly. Others have tried before Voss to do a similar thing. Only Roos and to a lesser extent Lyon have succeeded IMO.

I personally have never seen anything to say Voss can coach. COuldn't understand the frenzy when he was touted as being available.I LOVED the fact that Essendon panicked and sacked Sheedy and were then forced to take Knights. But Voss has no coaching experience and was a huge risk. It failed.

Far too early to call on any of this.

As Demon32 pointed out the Lions have been cruelled by injuries and struggled to get their best team on the park.

Voss decision to let B'shaw go at 31 was a fair assessment that Brisbane needed more up forward if they were to challenge again in the Brown era. And Bradshaw has not played since round 9 with an ageing hamstring. Fevola has kicked 47 goals this year in a side which has been often chopped to pieces in the midfield. A full side and Brown and Fevola fit was enough to cause problems for another team.

How many times have you seen Voss coach or what involvement have you had at close quarters with him. Many of the experts believe he was ready to coach. And he deserves more than 15 games before being given the sword. Over 2 to 3 years the decisions to trade may come home to bite him.

FWIW, Buchanan, Raines and Clarke would not have been on my shopping list. Staker has impressed me on the upside. He has been worth the 3rd rd pick.

[pitchfork 181]

here's the main problem:

Voss has let Fev get fat...surely if you're going to take a chance on a known trouble maker than you need to be confident you can control him at the very least on field.

All clubs have injuries, we have played most of the season without main cogs in our forward line and have 2 more points than the Lions. Melbourne=young team on the improve, Brisbane=old team going where?.

Unless Brown has a 100 goal season in 2011 does anyone see this team winning more than 11 games? Not good enough, instead of biting the bullet and giving up aging vets like Simon Black, Luke Power and even seeing what he could get for Brennan, Brisbane are now destined for what Cam Schwabb identified as the no mans land of consistently finishing between 7th and 11th with no prospect of really contending

[The Big Ticket 94]

The decision to recruit Pergola and offer up Bradshaw was by far the worst decision Voss Made. Cost them a lot and gained nothing on the field. Tore the fabric of the club with Bradshaw's treatment. AND they got a mindless troublemaking bogan.

Rolled the dice and lost badly. Others have tried before Voss to do a similar thing. Only Roos and to a lesser extent Lyon have succeeded IMO.

I personally have never seen anything to say Voss can coach. COuldn't understand the frenzy when he was touted as being available.I LOVED the fact that Essendon panicked and sacked Sheedy and were then forced to take Knights. But Voss has no coaching experience and was a huge risk. It failed.

Agree with Rhino. Far too early to make a call.

Which AFL coach wouldn't jump at the chance to pick up a superstar full forward to play alongside his superstar centre half forward?

It hasn't worked - yet. I think Voss coached well at times.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

here's the main problem:

Voss has let Fev get fat...surely if you're going to take a chance on a known trouble maker than you need to be confident you can control him at the very least on field.

All clubs have injuries, we have played most of the season without main cogs in our forward line and have 2 more points than the Lions. Melbourne=young team on the improve, Brisbane=old team going where?.

Unless Brown has a 100 goal season in 2011 does anyone see this team winning more than 11 games? Not good enough, instead of biting the bullet and giving up aging vets like Simon Black, Luke Power and even seeing what he could get for Brennan, Brisbane are now destined for what Cam Schwabb identified as the no mans land of consistently finishing between 7th and 11th with no prospect of really contending

We have main cogs in our forward line of the quality and output of Brown and Fevola?

Black is still their no 1 centreman. Brennan would get you much at the trading table.

And whats the sense of doing an MFC rebuild when GC and GWS take all the cream??

[Choko 493]

Agree with Rhino. Far too early to make a call.

Which AFL coach wouldn't jump at the chance to pick up a superstar full forward to play alongside his superstar centre half forward?

It hasn't worked - yet. I think Voss coached well at times.

I think people are being very soft on Voss. Blind Freddy could see that they did not have the list to challenge for a premiership in the short term. Whilst it was a predicament that some of their champions are ageing and deemed non-tradeable, perhaps they should have made some hard calls instead of easy ones. Yes, he has been unlucky with injury, but Goose is injury prone, Buchanan and Raines are really only c graders and Staker is a B- grader playing as expected.

The way the Rischitelli and Bradshaw situation was managed was terrible.

If Brown had 5 years left and was saying to Voss "Mate, I can't be motivated to go on here without knowing we may be in our window", then perhaps trade him. Massive call, but imagine his trade value to Collingwood or Carltion last year.

Trading Bradshaw and a young forward for a [censored] like Fev had trouble written all over it.

And the way the club (including Voss) have gone after the ex-Fitzroy supporters over the paddle pop lion, they get what they deserve.

So no sympathy from me.

[Demons 32 235]

I think people are being very soft on Voss.

Perhaps.... but I think there is a very valid reason for it.

6 of their top 10 players have had injury issues all year.

Do that to any team and they will struggle.

Here are 6 random Melbourne players who could be argued to be in our top 10.

Davey

Frawley

Sylvia

Moloney

Green

Jamar

If those 6 were missing from our side? Would we be playing very well? Of course not, we would be getting pantsed almost every week. Like what is happening to Brisbane at the moment.

You simply cannot lose that many quality players and still be a winning team.

Brown, Fev, Black, Drummond, Patfull and Merret are all good players. More importantly, that is almost the spine of their side gone.

The last 3 are the biggest and best defenders.

The first 2 are two of the most dominant forwards in the game (despite what you think of Fev as a person he is great, after all, people are saying he has been terrible but has still kicked 47 goals in a losing side).

Finally the one in the middle is a brownlow winner.

All good players, they simply cannot be a finals side with all of these players in and out every week with injuries. Therefore it is far to early to judge the Lions, and more importantly far to early to judge Michael Voss...... as clearly their game plan would have been largely focussed around the "best" players, suited to the best players, manufactured to highten the teams strengths.

As a coach we cannot judge Voss, he has been hit by an injury curse that hits every team sometime. Perhaps he can be judged on some poor list management, as I believe Buchanon, Xav Clarke and Raines were all foolish choices.

However Staker has been great playing a "mr fix it role" and despite any off field drama, Fevola is one of the best FF's going around, matched with Brown when the team was at full strength from rounds 1-4 they were unstoppable.... which all comes back to the game plan, that they can't implement with all these injuries to key players.

[Choko 493]

Perhaps.... but I think there is a very valid reason for it.

6 of their top 10 players have had injury issues all year.

Do that to any team and they will struggle.

Here are 6 random Melbourne players who could be argued to be in our top 10.

Davey

Frawley

Sylvia

Moloney

Green

Jamar

If those 6 were missing from our side? Would we be playing very well? Of course not, we would be getting pantsed almost every week. Like what is happening to Brisbane at the moment.

You simply cannot lose that many quality players and still be a winning team.

Brown, Fev, Black, Drummond, Patfull and Merret are all good players. More importantly, that is almost the spine of their side gone.

The last 3 are the biggest and best defenders.

The first 2 are two of the most dominant forwards in the game (despite what you think of Fev as a person he is great, after all, people are saying he has been terrible but has still kicked 47 goals in a losing side).

Finally the one in the middle is a brownlow winner.

All good players, they simply cannot be a finals side with all of these players in and out every week with injuries. Therefore it is far to early to judge the Lions, and more importantly far to early to judge Michael Voss...... as clearly their game plan would have been largely focussed around the "best" players, suited to the best players, manufactured to highten the teams strengths.

As a coach we cannot judge Voss, he has been hit by an injury curse that hits every team sometime. Perhaps he can be judged on some poor list management, as I believe Buchanon, Xav Clarke and Raines were all foolish choices.

However Staker has been great playing a "mr fix it role" and despite any off field drama, Fevola is one of the best FF's going around, matched with Brown when the team was at full strength from rounds 1-4 they were unstoppable.... which all comes back to the game plan, that they can't implement with all these injuries to key players.

Jonathan Brown and Simon Black being injured is not unpredictable.

The difference between Fev and Bradshaw is the issue, not how good Fev is. The difference might be 20 goals? So 1/game? And to upset the team dynamic that much?

If Patfull and Drummond are in their best 10 players, then I rest my case, he is not within 10 years of a premiership.

If Travis Johnstone is a backman, I'll eat my hat.

[Weedster 174]

Spot on ! I reckon hos treatment of Bradshaw who was a great of the club was appalling & would have everyone questioning Voss' integrity - serves him right

The decision to recruit Pergola and offer up Bradshaw was by far the worst decision Voss Made. Cost them a lot and gained nothing on the field. Tore the fabric of the club with Bradshaw's treatment. AND they got a mindless troublemaking bogan.

Rolled the dice and lost badly. Others have tried before Voss to do a similar thing. Only Roos and to a lesser extent Lyon have succeeded IMO.

I personally have never seen anything to say Voss can coach. COuldn't understand the frenzy when he was touted as being available.I LOVED the fact that Essendon panicked and sacked Sheedy and were then forced to take Knights. But Voss has no coaching experience and was a huge risk. It failed.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Jonathan Brown and Simon Black being injured is not unpredictable.

If Travis Johnstone is a backman, I'll eat my hat.

Spot on Brown reminds me of Brereton who was forced to retire at age 28 because of the punishment he had put his body through; how good do you think Brown's body is now? Black is a great player but I don't think anyone would expect him to play a full season.

TJ is a player that will always disappoint you and if you are relying on him to get you across the line, forget it.

I think Voss was arrogant enough that a few tweaks and him in charge was enough.

[pitchfork 181]

We have main cogs in our forward line of the quality and output of Brown and Fevola?

Black is still their no 1 centreman. Brennan would get you much at the trading table.

And whats the sense of doing an MFC rebuild when GC and GWS take all the cream??

I wasn't advocating an MFC rebuild - I think we're pretty obviously mid-way or towards the end of one, now we'll see the growth.

No we don't have a Brown or Fevola but we have missed Jurrah, Petterd, Watts from our senior team for large chunks of the season...no they are not superduperstars but we haven't had what could be said to be our best forward line many times this year.

Point was we're doing better in terms of ladder position and I believe path to a premiership than Brisbane are, especially now.

Voss went for an ultimate 'icing on the cake', but misread his list badly.

[FC Melbourne 108]

If Travis Johnstone is a backman, I'll eat my hat.

Agreed. I can't recall a worst defender one on one than TJ and thats the thing that worries me about Voss as a coach. He seems so pig headed.

His end of season review should be good though. Word is he only got the job because Brett Voss wasn't available.

[titan_uranus 25,043]

Brisbane suck, that's true, but it's been injuries more than anything.

The world underestimates the influence Josh Drummond has on their side, and he's been out for weeks now.

There's little coincidence that Jonathan Brown had kicked 17 goals in the first 4 weeks, then got injured, and that Brisbane won their first 4 games, then only 1 more...

Fevola's been injured, Black too, as well as Brennan and Merrett.

Do the same damage to most other teams and they will fall apart too.

It's not the sole reason for their crapiness, as their depth isn't great and their midrange players suck, but it's a big factor.

[Cranky Franky 2,091]

Most clubs that take this path have it blow up in their faces.

North Melb with Rawlings & Hay, Sheedy tried it in his last years, Freo became a retirement home for Essendon hacks.

Voss stuffed up but the Board should not have allowed it particularly as it was the last decent draft for a few years.

In fact he should probably have traded Brennan & got a draft pick for him

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Voss stuffed up but the Board should not have allowed it particularly as it was the last decent draft for a few years.

In fact he should probably have traded Brennan & got a draft pick for him

How long will it take to get another Brown or Black? There is a good argument to try an cash in on the final years of these two great players.

Brennan would get you no more than a 3rd rounder. Everyone knows he's flaky inconsistent and diabolical under pressure.

Although it was not Voss's decision, trading for TJ with the pick that got Grimes has been an unmitigated disaster.

[Choko 493]

How long will it take to get another Brown or Black? There is a good argument to try an cash in on the final years of these two great players.

Brennan would get you no more than a 3rd rounder. Everyone knows he's flaky inconsistent and diabolical under pressure.

Although it was not Voss's decision, trading for TJ with the pick that got Grimes has been an unmitigated disaster.

The fact that another Black and Brown won't come around very often doesn't mean that their mere existence will allow Brisbane to cash in. There simply isn't enough around them. Not to mention Brown and Black's bodies.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The fact that another Black and Brown won't come around very often doesn't mean that their mere existence will allow Brisbane to cash in. There simply isn't enough around them. Not to mention Brown and Black's bodies.

Agree. But they sought to trade to give them that window. Fitness of key players (B & B ) and others have cruelled their opportunities. Like any flag aspirant, you need everything to go to plan. Some key pieces in the puzzle have not worked for Brisbane this year.

[Roost It 1,434]

If he really had some balls then Brown, Black, Power and Bradshaw could have of been traded for a bevy of first and second round picks in the last uncompromised draft in 3 years. In reality though, which coach would do that? A good run with injuries and they'd be pushing Top 4. As another poster alluded too, sand and water the ground alot before next season.