How do we use our Talls?

[Demon Stalwart 255]

If folks are interested Id like some feedback on the following.

Listed below is Melbourne’s Tall, list of players all over 190 cm in height

Based on Height, Weight, Age and no of games played,

Id be interested in hearing from other supporters as to what their thoughts would be on changes of a experimental nature, that could be tried out for the remainder of the season if all players listed, are fit and available for selection.

I’m asking people "PLEASE" not to “bag” players here, but be constructive.

I’ m asking you to think outside the Square not consider the players current position if any.

Imagine you are the coach and your going to “experiment” for the remainder of the season

What would you do? How would you use and place these players?

Who would be in your team

........Name ................... H........W ........DOB......... Age.... No of Games

.1 Gawn,Max.....,,,,..........206 ......97.....30.12.91.......18.....Still to Debut

.2 Johnson,Paul...............199 .....103.....26.06.84..... .25....... 63

.3 Fitzpatrick,Jack...........199 .......87 ....26.06.91.......18 .....Still to Debut

.4 Martin,Stefan...............198 .....100.... 17.11.86...... 23....... 25

.5 Jamar,Mark ................198 .....100.....09.08.83 ......26........84

.6 Watts,Jack..................196 ......83.....26.03.91.......19.........7

.7 Miller,Brad...................194 ......94.....06.07.83.......26.......129

.8 Newton,Michael...........193........91.....27.04.87.......23........23

,9 Frawley,James............193........91 ....20.09.88.......21........50

10 Warnock,Matthew.......192........95.....03.04.84.......26........48

11 Rivers,Jarred...............192........90.....18.10.84.......25........97

12 Morton,Cale................192........83 ....18.01.90.......20 .......43

13.Dunn,Lynden..............192........93 ....14.05.87.......23........59

14 Bate,Matthew.............192 .......90.....24.05.87.......23........77

15 Garland,Colin..............191 .......85 ....28.04.88.......22.......29

[Harrisonrules 273]

A great question. But I've got to go out for a swim. It will give me something to think about while following the black line.

[13thflag 0]

I hope Max Gwan can play we need an extra tall not only in the ruck but also at full forward. Was hoping Steff Martin was up for the job.

[Harrisonrules 273]

Back from my swim. Nothing overly creative but for first post I'll outline my analysis.

Jamar is there already as we all know. But lets not forget how best to manage his talent and experience. This idea of one ruck is a bit of a fools paradise and suggests the coaches are stumped. He needs some reasonable rest rhoughout the game and we could utilise him up forward. He is an excellent shot on goal. We are not taking advantage of this.

So the problem then focuses on the back up ruck. First things first. I believe that several should be seen as project players knowing that the talls traditionally have taken time to develop ( Jamar 8 years )Spencer, Gawm Fitzpatrick should be forgotten about for 2 to 3 years, unless they begin to truly show exceptional talent. Spencer looked promising early and so was rushed into the team. There is so much more to learn especially for a basketball player than jumpin at the centre bounce. His other skills are abysmal so he needs time. I'm personally hopeful that Fitzpatrick will develop as a key forward or back as he has shown in his younger days that he marks well and is very mobile for a big man. With some bulk he might push ahead as the second ruck. Gawm is such a tall streak I personally think he will be primarily our prime ruck, probably to replace Jamar. He is mobile and can mark but with his physique I think he will take even longer to develop.

So that leaves us with Johnson and Martin. Martin has sshown he can play down back. The problem is that the coaching staff are reluctant to go with such a tall on the back line. I disagree with them. I think there have been games we have lost because we didn't have a super tall on the backline. To watch our second tier talls outmarked eg, 'the Pod', North etc is frustrating because we have someone who can cope with this problem. I was happy they tried him forward but looks like a far slower process than we thought. I think his marking would have developed on the backline more than the forward line. Johnson has more experience and maturity than any of them. He looked so good we thought it was just a matter of time before he took the game by the scruff of the neck. But I guess most have stopped believing that. It's 50 /50 on these two and I might be inclined to pick Johnson and let Martin deveop at Casey or if you prefer just use Martin and stick by him believing Johnson will never be the player we need. Martin still might do it.

Miller and unfortunately Newton just do not have the agility or hands to be an intimidating forward.

Frawley and Warnock have settle into the backline and I believe are our best prospects as the two key back positions. I believe Warnock has gone past Rivers due to bulk and speed.

Rivers and Garland offer some versatility. Both have had forward play experience so I can't understand why they have not been tried there. Garland has time to develop further. Is a tall who can play tall and small thus must be persevered with. Thgere are a lot of Rivers bashers on this forum. While he does lack a yard of pace it's not the greatest problem I am one who believes he has excellent marking skill in a team that lacks it. I'd try him forward to give him some versatility.

Jack Watts just needs experience, experince, experience. Break down his game and we see he has excellent skill. The press the Club Board and win starved supporters have created great pressure to play him before he was really ready. Lynch at St. Kilda, Cordy and Roughhead at doggies, are all acclaimed, but haven't appeared, Gumbledon at Bombers, Anthony at Maggies are just beginning or in the latters case struggling. The hardest position on the field takes time and the synchronisatioin of many factors. Kruezer is getting there but as a ruckman but beaten by Jamar.

Cale Morton is a tall who plays better small but is developoing the confidence to develop his taller game. Best to let him play as he has been, but with some time up forward. I'd have him float forward more than float back.

Dunn and Bate came together and haven't quite delivered as we hoped. Bate actually is a tall on this scale but can really only play small. Overhead marking is one of his weak points and he can't jump. A great kick and an opportunist. He is better thought of as a small in the mould of a Cat Chapman. Dunn plays small than his height suggests. Similar can't jump very well and doen't attack the ball in a contested marking pack. I'd play him as a mobile forward, ruckrover (if there are such things these day.

As Sheedy says, Melbourne have always erred on the side of the smalls. And our talls don't always know how to play tall.

One gains advantage with footspeed, strong bodies, quick minds and in the air. Of the latter we are lacking.

[Eth 4]

Max Gawn - Will slowly develop into our No. 1 ruck. Expect him to be second ruck by 2012, first ruck once Mark Jamar retires.

Paul Johnson - Expecting to see him delisted.

Jack Fitzpatrick - Tall, high marking ruckman/forward? Can't wait until he develops, he'll be our CHF for sure.

Stefan Martin - Not AFL standard IMO.

Mark Jamar - No. 1 ruck, can play FF. Hopefully we can get a second ruck in ASAP to allow him to spend more time forward.

Jack Watts - Just let him develop, it takes longer for the talls. Riewoldt wasn't a star in his second year.

Brad Miller - Our key forward...down at Casey.

Michael Newton - See Brad Miller

James Frawley - IMO similar to Matthew Scarlett, tall defender who plays on tall and small forwards who rebounds and wins a lot of ball.

Matthew Warnock - Premiership full back.

Jared Rivers - Plays best as a loose defender but DB doesn't like playing him there.

Cale Morton - Tall midfielder/half-forward. Not a KPP.

Lynden Dunn - Right size for a key forward, but doesn't play like one. Half-forward flanker.

Matthew Bate - Plays smaller than he really is. Half-forward who wins ball and kicks goals. Way better at ground than in the air.

Colin Garland - We really should play him up forward, that's what he was drafted as. Will allow Joel Mac to keep his spot.

I'm expecting our team to look like this eventually (obviously excluding injuries and players we'll draft in the future):

B: Cheney Warnock Macdonald

HB: Rivers Frawley Grimes

C: Davey Trengove Morton

HF: Bate Fitzpatrick Watts

F: Jurrah Petterd Green

R: Jamar Jones Scully

INT: Gawn Moloney Gysberts Tapscott

EMG: Bennell Jetta Garland

That's 10 out of 25 that are talls. Hopefully it won't be any problem in the future.

Edited June 6, 2010 by eth38

[RalphiusMaximus 6,001]

Well, the obvious answer to the OP is:

Badly.

We have some pretty serious structural issues that need to be worked out. Fortunately, we have a couple of years to get them sorted while our future talls in Watts, Gawn and Fitzpatrick develop to the point where they can influence games.

[Harrisonrules 273]

eth38 I'm happy with all you have said but believe you have not assessed Bate accurately. A good solid ground player. Excellent goal opportunist. 90% plus shot on goal from as far as 50. One of our most reliable shots on goal, but only plays small. Cannot jump for a serious contested mark and might hold overhead uncontested mark but rarely a contested one. I challenge you to take a closer look.

[Eth 4]

eth38 I'm happy with all you have said but believe you have not assessed Bate accurately. A good solid ground player. Excellent goal opportunist. 90% plus shot on goal from as far as 50. One of our most reliable shots on goal, but only plays small. Cannot jump for a serious contested mark and might hold overhead uncontested mark but rarely a contested one. I challenge you to take a closer look.

I'll edit it then :D

[MadAsHell 4,089]

Max Gawn - Developing ruckman, expect him to be our long term no 1 ruck once Jamar retires. I don't expect to see much of him till around 2012 (at least in Melbourne's side) but from 2013/2014 onwards once he's got the mantle of no 1 I think we could have the next Aaron Sandilands on our cards.

Paul Johnson - To be delisted at seasons end, will only play again this year if Jamar and Spencer are both injured at the same time and will only be kept on the list if Jamar picks up a 12 month injury late in the season.

Jack Fitzpatrick - Developing tall forward/pinch hit ruckman, I've seen a bit of him and he moves very well for a big man, makes Josh Fraser (allegedly a mobile ruckman) look very slow. He could debut with Melbourne as early as next year IMO and I have no doubt will make his Casey seniors debut in the coming weeks.

Stefan Martin - I feel that the FD may be dropping the ball with Stef by their insistance of playing Rivers at CHB. Martin should be in the senior side at CHB and pinch hitting in the ruck when Jamar needs a spell, trying to play him as a forward may be doing him more harm then good. I still think he has a lot of promise but long term will be battling with Fitzpatrick for the no 2 ruck spot. Hope to see him in the side shortly.

Mark Jamar - Current no 1 ruck who is in All Australian form. Think he will be our no 1 ruck till at least the end of 2013 before his age and Gawn's development start to challenge this.

Jack Watts - Long term FF/CHF in the making. Will be a good Drew Petrie type player at worst or a dominant Nick Riewoldt type player at best. Just needs time and by 2012 I think he'll really start to come into his own.

Brad Miller - Very good VFL CHF/FF but just can't cut the mustard at AFL level. Has had ample opportunities over the years, may play the odd game before the seasons end depending on form/injuries but will be either with Gold Coast or VFl next year.

Michael Newton - FF who I can't see playing another game unless we are ravaged with injuries or he kicks consecutive bags of 7 goals plus with Casey. Delisted at seasons end.

James Frawley - Key defender who is already one of the premier defenders in the competition. Can play tall and small, unlike Matthew Scarlett he always plays on the oppositions most dangerous forward and could become the best defender in the comp since Stephen Silvagni.

Matthew Warnock - Solid and reliable FB who will get the job on the oppositions gorillas each week. Will be given this role for the next 5 years.

Jarred Rivers - My favourite player but even I will say he needs to add another string to his bow if he's going to survive long term. Injuries have stalled what was looking like a stellar career, but the Melbourne's side structure looks better with Martin at CHB then Rivers. Rivers needs to learn to be able to play forward also, Glenn Archer type or he may find himself on the trading block at seasons end.

Cale Morton - Versatile running wingman who can also play forward and back. Adds flexability to the Melbourne side and will be a part of the team for another 10 years.

Lynden Dunn - Half forward seems to be his best position but has failed to demand a spot in the side in his 6 years at the club. Can't see him surviving beyond next year.

Matthew Bate - Current CHF and very valuable to the MFC structure. Think he will keep this role for several more years and will be our premiership CHF.

Colin Garland - Like Frawley a very versatile defender who can play tall and small. Will be in our best 22 for years to come.

John Meesen - I know you didn't list him but he does fit into this category. Injuries have cruelled the young man (former top 10 draft pick) who I think has shown a bit. Will be delisted at seasons end but if he does a season in the VFL at a club like Frankston where he would demand the no 1 ruck role then he may be a chance to be re-drafted in the future by another club.

Jake Spencer - Again wasn't listed but IMO young developing ruckman who will be given another few years but will be battling with Gawn long term for the future no 1 ruck role.

Edit: Added Jake Spencer.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Tall Defence

[jayceebee31 692]

What has happened to Spencer- already delisted by you posters except for Tall Defence.?

I think he will become a back up ruckman from 2011.

Edited June 7, 2010 by jayceebee31

[MadAsHell 4,089]

As Sheedy says, Melbourne have always erred on the side of the smalls. And our talls don't always know how to play tall.

One gains advantage with footspeed, strong bodies, quick minds and in the air. Of the latter we are lacking.

We're quoting Kevin Sheedy on demonland now?

Jesus!

[Demon Stalwart 255]

Rivers and Garland offer some versatility. Both have had forward play experience so I can't understand why they have not been tried there. Garland has time to develop further. Is a tall who can play tall and small thus must be persevered with. Thgere are a lot of Rivers bashers on this forum. While he does lack a yard of pace it's not the greatest problem I am one who believes he has excellent marking skill in a team that lacks it. I'd try him forward to give him some versatility.

Jack Watts just needs experience, experince, experience. Break down his game and we see he has excellent skill. The press the Club Board and win starved supporters have created great pressure to play him before he was really ready. Lynch at St. Kilda, Cordy and Roughhead at doggies, are all acclaimed, but haven't appeared, Gumbledon at Bombers, Anthony at Maggies are just beginning or in the latters case struggling. The hardest position on the field takes time and the synchronisatioin of many factors. Kruezer is getting there but as a ruckman but beaten by Jamar.

I agree with both sentiments in this part of your post

Rivers and Garland are both a Forward option I feel that we can certainly experiment with them

All of us knew, as Melbourne Supporters that 6 or more wins for the season would be a acceptable result.

So therefore why not use the season to see if Players can adapt to different roles

Otherwise some players may be looking at the end of their careers and I hate that.

As for young Jack, I believe that the expectations that have been put on this young man are verging on the ridiculous.

Yes we can hope he turns into a great Player but for gods sake his still maturing and needs time to grow into what we all hope he may be. At the moment he spends more time on the ground (and I mean laying on the Ground)than playing well on the ground

Give him a break, help him grow and Mature and take the pressure off him for now.

We all believe Melbourne has a good future but for the last few weeks we really have shown little signs of it.

And now we front Collingwood, last Time we pushed em to the limit, do we believe we can do it again this time?

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,662]

I think that Mark Jamar, despite his excellent year in 2010, is too predictable in his hit-out tactics.

He always palms the ball back and to the left(even if this means the ball goes into the opposition goal-square.)

It becomes easy for opposition midfielders to anticipate, and "shark" his hit-outs if he doesn't vary it.

And he should NEVER tap the ball into the opposition goal-square!