The Club, The Coach & The Questions

[WonnaJurah 5]

Come on they like the name! I am sure they have offered Nikki B a Lexus coterie membership B)

And Shes A Dees Suporter

[youami 54]

effectively we didnt use the draft after 1999 till about 2006 where we have frawley, petterd and garland

these are the blokes taken in the various drafts that remain on our list (ie, these blokes are the pick of the picks in a sense), only mclean i think is not on the list is of any value at other clubs.

2005 12 Nathan Jones Melbourne

2005 60 Clint Bartram Melbourne

2004 13 Matthew Bate Melbourne

2004 15 Lynden Dunn Melbourne

2004 Matthew Warnock Rookie Melbourne

2003 3 Colin Sylvia Melbourne

2003 Aaron Davey Rookie Melbourne

2002 14 Daniel Bell Melbourne

2002 26 Jared Rivers Melbourne

2001 55 Brad Miller Melbourne

2001 Mark Jamar Rookie Melbourne

these blokes should form the backbone of our club, but there isnt much there to be honest. 2000, 01, 02, 03, 04, 05. 6 years of drafting and probably sylvia and davey are of any note. that is the black hole of the melbourne football club. not the 2008-10 bailey years.

[Cranky Franky 2,031]

Spot on matey.

So far Baileys match day coaching seems pretty insipid.

John Northey was a pretty conservative coach but when things weren't working he threw players around

Grinter to FF, TC to full back, Stynes to CHB, Allan Johnson on the ball.

They didn't always work but sometimes they did.

PS - look at the way Malthouse has been able to take good ordinary footballers & develop them into elite players ie Swan, Pendlebury, Maxwell, Johnson, O'Bree

Mark Williams has done the same at PA with Rodan,Carlisle & Pearce. Bailey has been unable to do this as yet.

[Yokozuna 1,004]

"Burn in Hell", you state you with Bailey until this year.

Is one round all you give him and the players?

What happens if and hopefully when they start to play well, will you be back on him again?

If we went on one game of football, Freo would be one of the flag favourites at this moment, and we know that is not true!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Spot on matey.

So far Baileys match day coaching seems pretty insipid.

John Northey was a pretty conservative coach but when things weren't working he threw players around

Grinter to FF, TC to full back, Stynes to CHB, Allan Johnson on the ball.

They didn't always work but sometimes they did.

PS - look at the way Malthouse has been able to take good ordinary footballers & develop them into elite players ie Swan, Pendlebury, Maxwell, Johnson, O'Bree

Mark Williams has done the same at PA with Rodan,Carlisle & Pearce. Bailey has been unable to do this as yet.

Maybe, he does not have the calibre of players yet...... Both Northey and Malthouse had quality players to do that with.

Also I wouldnt be using Chocko as an example of things. If any side has underperformed in the past 2 years its PA.Like butter under pressure. No wonder they took Laidley to work on things.

[burn in hell 0]

"Burn in Hell", you state you with Bailey until this year.

Is one round all you give him and the players?

What happens if and hopefully when they start to play well, will you be back on him again?

If we went on one game of football, Freo would be one of the flag favourites at this moment, and we know that is not true!

I did not see the Adelaide game, but the other practice matches were pretty bad. Someone else posted something about a lack of soul and spirit. This is what I am truly worried about. I can't go to the Collingwood game this week, I will get too upset, it is now bad for my health, my home life, my work life and my overall optimism for my future happiness. I refuse to watch a spiritless side. I will only come back to the games if I believe in the general (coach), otherwise I am wasting my life and passions. Saturday was absolutely woeful a bloody disgrace, and Bailey post match conference gave the impression he really didnt care. It is more than a game, more like a religion. What i saw was COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.

Bring on Viney and the old boys. WE NEED SPIRIT

[GolfBoyPro 43]

I think Neale Daniher left MFC in a real mess... He was more than happy to pull the plug when people started calling for his head as he knew all to well the team was on a downward spiral and it was going to take a number of years, as it already has, for MFC to be successful again. Dean Bailey has massive job and he has culled a lot. keeping Newton and Meeson this yr was a backward step

though, probably more a financial decision than anything. I am happy to give him the extra yr, but there would want to be some improvemtne by then...

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I can't believe people make the statement that the players don't respect the coach etc. We all know that Stynes and Lyon are key figures behind the scenes, they would have had a big say in Bailey's contract extension. Now, these blokes actually played with the skipper James McDonald. Don't you think if the situation is such that Bailey has 'lost' the group, that this message would have been filtered through to these decision makers at the club? When that situation occurs at clubs it spreads like wildfire and you can be certain that the board would be aware of it. I conclude from their decision to extend that no such situation could exist. Furthermore, with the exception of C.Johnson, for whom their were other issues, the only player to have jumped ship is Brock McLean. I personally believe the reason he is gone has absolutely nothing to do with his opinion of the coach and where the side is headed, and that in fact the notion that he has jumped (not pushed) may not even be accurate, that is debatable however. Every other player has signed up for the long haul, including Aaron Davey who could have ended his career at a more likely-looking side, for more money, with his brother, but instead chose us for 4 years. I think this fact also proves that there is no doubt about Bailey amongst the playing group. I have also heard Schwarz publicly state several times that the group is right behind Bailey and that he and others (Connolly) are doing everything right.

Top post Jimmi C

Edited April 1, 2010 by Curry & Beer

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

I did not see the Adelaide game, but the other practice matches were pretty bad. Someone else posted something about a lack of soul and spirit. This is what I am truly worried about. I can't go to the Collingwood game this week, I will get too upset, it is now bad for my health, my home life, my work life and my overall optimism for my future happiness. I refuse to watch a spiritless side. I will only come back to the games if I believe in the general (coach), otherwise I am wasting my life and passions. Saturday was absolutely woeful a bloody disgrace, and Bailey post match conference gave the impression he really didnt care. It is more than a game, more like a religion. What i saw was COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.

Bring on Viney and the old boys. WE NEED SPIRIT

I don't know why people keep talking down the match against Essendon. we started very poorly and conceded the first 6. For the rest of the day we were excellent, and we had half a side in to their near-full-strength side. We have now seen that the Bombers are in fact a pretty handy unit, beating the Cats over the first 3 quarters last week. I know the preseason as a whole was still pretty average but let's deal in facts here and state that we had 4 quarters against the Crows, 3 against the Dons, 2 against the Eagles and 1 against the Dockers. Not the complete disaster some like to say it was.

[Guest Thomo]

Rhino Richards, on 01 April 2010 - 09:50 AM, said:

Maybe, he does not have the calibre of players yet...... Both Northey and Malthouse had quality players to do that with

The point was that Malthouse and Northey developed average players into good players, that's why they had quality lists. The teams may not have had quality players under a different coach.

It's easy to say that players are not up to standard, but why? They were drafted for a reason, and have not preformed. Was it bad drafting, or bad development. Many posters seem to say that Dean Bailey is not to blame for the payers aged between 21 and 26 being below AFL standard, but isn't it part of the coaches job to teach these players and get the best out of them? Dean Bailey has had two and a half years with them, and the majority of players in that age group have gone backwards. Why are Rivers, Warnock, Bate, Petterd, Moloney, Jones, Jamar, Bartram, Dunn not up to the standard that we hoped?

Melbourne cannot just rely on the natural talent of draft picks. Some will not work out, some will get injured, some will leave. Remember that there are two teams are about to enter the competition that will have better draft picks than Melbourne, so like the rest of the competition we need to make sure we have someone that can get the best out of the average players.

Im not saying get rid of Dean Bailey, but I also dont believe in blind faith. Its easy to coach blokes like Scully. I want improvement from the average players.

edit - added quote

Edited April 1, 2010 by Thomo

[BLWNBA 928]

Why did we delist Buckley, but re-sign Bartram for 2 years and then not even bother playing him round 1?

Stupid call, bad call.

Basically you're saying that every player that gets a contract extension should be played? That was one of the most farcical posts I've ever seen.

[satyricon 267]

The point was that Malthouse and Northey developed average players into good players, that's why they had quality lists. The teams may not have had quality players under a different coach.

It's easy to say that players are not up to standard, but why? They were drafted for a reason, and have not preformed. Was it bad drafting, or bad development. Many posters seem to say that Dean Bailey is not to blame for the payers aged between 21 and 26 being below AFL standard, but isn't it part of the coaches job to teach these players and get the best out of them? Dean Bailey has had two and a half years with them, and the majority of players in that age group have gone backwards. Why are Rivers, Warnock, Bate, Petterd, Moloney, Jones, Jamar, Bartram, Dunn not up to the standard that we hoped?

Melbourne cannot just rely on the natural talent of draft picks. Some will not work out, some will get injured, some will leave. Remember that there are two teams are about to enter the competition that will have better draft picks than Melbourne, so like the rest of the competition we need to make sure we have someone that can get the best out of the average players.

I’m not saying get rid of Dean Bailey, but I also don’t believe in blind faith. It’s easy to coach blokes like Scully. I want improvement from the average players.

edit - added quote

Maybe it's because the are just good solid professional footballers, nothing flash, all teams need them, but you also need good, very good and superstar players, Cam Scwab alluded to this on his Whiteboard video.

Bailey can only do so much with them as they can't go much higher, but will fill spots in the matrix, and in time be dropped from the team to be replaced by a younger better players coming through.

That said Bate and Petterd are still only 22, expect them to hit their prime in about two years, if they steadily improve they will stay on the list, Rivers has had a miserable couple of years with injury, same with Jamar it is their bodies letting them down, Maybe it is Jones, Moloney Bartam and Dunn who are the main ones under threat of going backwards, hence why we have recruited so many midfielder/forward in the last couple of years.

It is the old sows ear into a silk purse.

Personally if we can get Blease, Gysberts, (Tapscott) and believe it or not Healy up and running mid season I personally can't see Jones, Moloney Dunn or Bartam being in the picked team

[bush demon 2,038]

Spot on matey.

So far Baileys match day coaching seems pretty insipid.

John Northey was a pretty conservative coach but when things weren't working he threw players around

Grinter to FF, TC to full back, Stynes to CHB, Allan Johnson on the ball.

They didn't always work but sometimes they did.

PS - look at the way Malthouse has been able to take good ordinary footballers & develop them into elite players ie Swan, Pendlebury, Maxwell, Johnson, O'Bree

Mark Williams has done the same at PA with Rodan,Carlisle & Pearce. Bailey has been unable to do this as yet.

Not to mention Sean Wight to Full Forward, which won us the 1988 Elimination final after a pathetic first half.

[jacey 333]

If I recall correctly Bailey promised to turn over the list and build a side through the draft since he took over in September

Good post Jimmi C.

Many players have expressed how long it takes for a game plan to sink in. Saints say it took em 18 months and they've got gun players and a settled squad. They've played a lot of games together.

Let's have a look at our 'settled' team.

'08 Rd 1. Only 8 players who played rd1 2010 played in that game.

'08 Rd 10. 10 players.

'08 rd 20. 9 players.

'09 rd 1. 13 players.

'09 rd 10. 14 players.

'09 rd 20. 10 players.

Hard to build combinations with continual turnover of players and the players who were there in rd1 08.

Jones, Moloney, Green, Bruce, Jmac, Miller, Petterd, Davey.

Our leadership group there.

Edited April 1, 2010 by jacey

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The point was that Malthouse and Northey developed average players into good players, that's why they had quality lists. The teams may not have had quality players under a different coach.

It's easy to say that players are not up to standard, but why? They were drafted for a reason, and have not preformed. Was it bad drafting, or bad development. Many posters seem to say that Dean Bailey is not to blame for the payers aged between 21 and 26 being below AFL standard, but isn't it part of the coaches job to teach these players and get the best out of them? Dean Bailey has had two and a half years with them, and the majority of players in that age group have gone backwards. Why are Rivers, Warnock, Bate, Petterd, Moloney, Jones, Jamar, Bartram, Dunn not up to the standard that we hoped?

Melbourne cannot just rely on the natural talent of draft picks. Some will not work out, some will get injured, some will leave. Remember that there are two teams are about to enter the competition that will have better draft picks than Melbourne, so like the rest of the competition we need to make sure we have someone that can get the best out of the average players.

I’m not saying get rid of Dean Bailey, but I also don’t believe in blind faith. It’s easy to coach blokes like Scully. I want improvement from the average players.

edit - added quote

Unfortunately some average players remain average or worse because they are.....

Malthouse has been at Collingwood 10 years with access to the best facilities, lotsa motsa and has a mature list of players that he has crafted.

I think you need to rethink your assessment of Northey. He had access to Flower (the last star we had), the class of Lyon, Viney, Stynes, Dean, Lovell, Wight and the maturity of the rebuild of player recruited by Barassi/Jordan. He had some good honest battlers there but to say that they had no class in that side is just wrong.

And MFC for past few years has not had that class. Our true talent is in our younger players who are still raw. Our senior list is generally C graders who are showing generally mediocre performance.

If our rise up the ladder is not going to come from the scoop of talent we have amassed over the past 4 years then its not going to come from an honest but limited senior list.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

.....

Hard to build combinations with continual turnover of players and the players who were there in rd1 08.

Jones, Moloney, Green, Bruce, Jmac, Miller, Petterd, Davey.

Our leadership group there.

Good post Jacey.

Now compare that against the 8 top leaders at other Clubs. Tells a tale.

[Deeoldfart 8,005]

................... he (Bailey)has not yet been able to develop player like Dunn, Miller, Newton & others.

Sorry Cranky, but that statement just highlights your football naivete. You could say something similar about every coach who has ever coached a fringe player who was never going to make it. For God's sake, the best team in the AFL (with arguably the best coach) had Kane Tenace (drafted No. 7) on its list for 6 years before they delisted him last year.

Back in July 2009 you said "There should be some sort IQ footy knowdge test to weed out some of the clowns who post here".

Hmm.

[Guest Thomo]

Unfortunately some average players remain average or worse because they are.....

Malthouse has been at Collingwood 10 years with access to the best facilities, lotsa motsa and has a mature list of players that he has crafted.

I think you need to rethink your assessment of Northey. He had access to Flower (the last star we had), the class of Lyon, Viney, Stynes, Dean, Lovell, Wight and the maturity of the rebuild of player recruited by Barassi/Jordan. He had some good honest battlers there but to say that they had no class in that side is just wrong.

And MFC for past few years has not had that class. Our true talent is in our younger players who are still raw. Our senior list is generally C graders who are showing generally mediocre performance.

If our rise up the ladder is not going to come from the scoop of talent we have amassed over the past 4 years then its not going to come from an honest but limited senior list.

Malthouse got Collingwood to a Grand Final in his third year, not after "10 years with access to the best facilities, lotsa motsa and has a mature list of players that he has crafted". Not that I expect Bailey to do the same with this list, just think that you are overlooking the first 9 years to fit your point.

Northey has access to Flower on his last legs (no disrespect to the great man, but he was past his prime), Lyon probably would have been a great player under any coach, but Viney was not blessed with the natural skill of a champion, did it through hard work, and Stynes and Wight had never even played the game. So I guess you are backing up my point, Northey got a hell of a lot out of the list that he had, and player that may have only been average turned out to be very good.

And I don't believe I said that they had no class in the side, just that they got the most out of the average players on the list, but again, no need to let the truth get in the way of a good story when you are trying to make your point.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Malthouse got Collingwood to a Grand Final in his third year, not after "10 years with access to the best facilities, lotsa motsa and has a mature list of players that he has crafted". Not that I expect Bailey to do the same with this list, just think that you are overlooking the first 9 years to fit your point.

Northey has access to Flower on his last legs (no disrespect to the great man, but he was past his prime), Lyon probably would have been a great player under any coach, but Viney was not blessed with the natural skill of a champion, did it through hard work, and Stynes and Wight had never even played the game. So I guess you are backing up my point, Northey got a hell of a lot out of the list that he had, and player that may have only been average turned out to be very good.

And I don't believe I said that they had no class in the side, just that they got the most out of the average players on the list, but again, no need to let the truth get in the way of a good story when you are trying to make your point.

Sorry Thomo. Always work with the facts. I will let you gild the lily for your own ends.

Malthouse had Buckley (one of the best footballers of his time) Rocca, Burns, Licuria, Clement for starters in his list. I also note in the 2002 side, MM also had Didak, Davis, Presti, Lockyer,O'Bree Johnson and Fraser...all LT competent footballers. They had average AFL game experience in their GF side for 2002 of 94 games (total exp of 2057 games). The team we put on the park on Saturday had nearly 500 games total AFL experience less. And from our side, we got stuff all contribution from Bruce, Beamer,Miller, Bate, Davey and Dunn who contribute about 1/3 of the games experience in our team. Collingwood were a very competent and experienced side that was ripe for a crack at the finals and were not going through the Mother of all rebuilds like MFC.

Flower was still a skilled player in his last year even when he played up forward. Its often forgotten that it was Flower with broken finger took crucial marks and kicked vital goals in the famous Western Oval. He then followed up by kicking 5 in the elimination final and 4 more in the qualifying final. If Flower was on his last legs then some of senior player have had rigga mortis set in years ago! So we both agree that Northey had Lyon...a champion (Well done on that). But Northey had the following other players who had 50 or more games at his disposal: B Lovett, Grinter,Gr Healy, Alan Johnson, Stretch, Wilson, Yeats and Wight. And as we both agree add Lyon. And Viney was just a top hard nut player.

So who have we got to match the experience and talent amongst our senior list to match the sides both MM and Northey had?

[Demon trucker 1,800]

Spot on matey.

So far Baileys match day coaching seems pretty insipid.

John Northey was a pretty conservative coach but when things weren't working he threw players around

Grinter to FF, TC to full back, Stynes to CHB, Allan Johnson on the ball.

They didn't always work but sometimes they did.

PS - look at the way Malthouse has been able to take good ordinary footballers & develop them into elite players ie Swan, Pendlebury, Maxwell, Johnson, O'Bree

Mark Williams has done the same at PA with Rodan,Carlisle & Pearce. Bailey has been unable to do this as yet.

you know what the funny thing is, the game against Richmond last year forwards where playing back and backs where playing forward and we lost the game after the siren,and they called it tanking, so DB is not allowed to change players position because the word tanking will come out again. SO DB had the courage to do this last year, he could of done it more often, but when every he did the word tanking came. SO the development of our players was held back last year, because DB had to think twice when every he thought about putting players in different positions,

[Guest Thomo]

Sorry Thomo. Always work with the facts. I will let you gild the lily for your own ends.

Malthouse had Buckley (one of the best footballers of his time) Rocca, Burns, Licuria, Clement for starters in his list. They were a very competent side to start and were not going through the Mother of all rebuilds.

Flower was still a skilled player in his last year even when he played up forward. Its often forgotten that it was Flower with broken finger took crucial marks and kicked vital goals in the famous Western Oval. He then followed up by kicking 5 in the elimination final and 4 more in the qualifying final. If Flower was on his last legs then some of senior player have had rigga mortis set in years ago! So we both agree that Northey had Lyon...a champion (Well done on that). But Northey had the following other players who had 50 or more games at his disposal: B Lovett, Grinter,Gr Healy, Alan Johnson, Stretch, Wilson, Yeats and Wight. And as we both agree add Lyon. And Viney was just a top hard nut player.

So who have we got to match the experience and talent amongstr our senior list to match the sides both MM and Northey had?

I agree, both lists had more stars than the current crop of Melbourne players, that was not in question, and I don't expect Melbourne to be playing finals this year. If you reread my posts without trying to win an argument, you will see that I have been saying that a great coach gets the best out of the average players, like I belive Northey and Malthouse did, and that's what I want to see Dean Bailey do.

But if you want to be on some sort of crusade to seem right, by all means carry on arguing a point that doesn't need to be argued.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I agree, both lists had more stars than the current crop of Melbourne players, that was not in question, and I don't expect Melbourne to be playing finals this year. If you reread my posts without trying to win an argument, you will see that I have been saying that a great coach gets the best out of the average players, like I belive Northey and Malthouse did, and that's what I want to see Dean Bailey do.

But if you want to be on some sort of crusade to seem right, by all means carry on arguing a point that doesn't need to be argued.

Both Northey and MM had better than average players at their disposal that allowed them to get the success they had to date.

If that the case Bailey should be judged on how much the players he has recruited actually improve. I am not sure you are going to get any more out of Bruce, Beamer, Dunn, Bell, Miller and Jones than you have seen to date as they appear limited footballers period.

[Guest Thomo]

Both Northey and MM had better than average players at their disposal that allowed them to get the success they had to date.

If that the case Bailey should be judged on how much the players he has recruited actually improve. I am not sure you are going to get any more out of Bruce, Beamer, Dunn, Bell, Miller and Jones than you have seen to date as they appear limited footballers period.

Back to my orginal post, the question I was asking was why we will get no more out of Beamer, Dunn, Bell, Miller and Jones (Bruce is to old to expect improvment). I asked was it bad recriuting, or is it that the coach can not get the most out of the average players. I said that I belive that Northey and Malthouse do, and I hope Bailey can. Again, I'm not exactly sure why you feel the need to have a win in this thread, but it's come full circle, and I still have no idea what your point was.

[Lost Highway 31]

Personally if we can get Blease, Gysberts, (Tapscott) and believe it or not Healy up and running mid season I personally can't see Jones, Moloney Dunn or Bartam being in the picked team

I think perhaps I might just about see my way clear to agreeing with that, in time.

Not sure about Healy, haven't seen him play; nor have I seen Hughes.

No, on second thoughts, I agree with you right away. Those blokes are just filling in time while we wait. Jones and Moloney give their all, in their way, but their all is not skilled or damaging enough to be considered for a place in a team that should have Scully, Trengove, McKenzie, Blease, Gysberts and Tapscott all firing towards the end of the season, injury permitting. Nor are Bruce or Junior, to be honest. I'd rate Jetta and even Maric ahead of them. Junior's an honest toiler who can win the ball but can't do any damage with it. Bruce has lost it. Moloney just blazes away. Jones can't get a kick or handball away without being grabbed first. And Dunn...?

But that's still in the future; for the time being let's just hope for a lot more spirit and endeavour on the day, and some more perceptive tactics and moves by Bailey when or if the need arises. We haven't had a coach who could pull a stunning move since Northey, who was prepared to take risks to turn the tide. If we get a few goals behind in the first 15 minutes and the heads start dropping, I'll want to go home. I won't, though. I'll stay and fume, with the army of b/w pond-life around me.

[Roost It 1,434]

Back to my orginal post, the question I was asking was why we will get no more out of Beamer, Dunn, Bell, Miller and Jones (Bruce is to old to expect improvment). I asked was it bad recriuting, or is it that the coach can not get the most out of the average players. I said that I belive that Northey and Malthouse do, and I hope Bailey can. Again, I'm not exactly sure why you feel the need to have a win in this thread, but it's come full circle, and I still have no idea what your point was.

The 6 players you talk about all have at least one glaring deffiency, if not more. They are also the ones this club looks to to lead the play on the field. There are no Flower's, Buckley's, Lyon's or anyone near that calibre to lead those around them. Just look at Saturday. We were killed by Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis and Brown. These are big bodied top level premiership players. Not one of the 6 you mention are in the same ballpark as these players. Throw in an underdone Bate and Davey and a concussed Green and we were very lucky the margin wasn't 100 points. To harp on about not getting the most out of your team when your team is in the state ours is is kind of pointless. In the second half he gave Trengove a run with Hodge and then Scully a run with Hodge. he's developing players. We're going to have to wait until Watts, Jurrah, Morton, Garland, Sylvia, Blease, Scully, Trengove, Strauss, Grimes, Gysberts, Mckenzie and co. have played at least a season together before winning becomes important.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Roost It