listening to Bailey after the match at the press conference. You would think we weren't shallacked today, and lost by a couple of goals. the score flattered us.

Would have thought a public statement that what we produced is unnacceptable is needed here.

Just wonder if he has got the balls required to demand we play winning football.

That was pathetic today.

Agreed. Today was undoubtedly a day to prove something, and he proved only that he is the wrong man for the job.

Disappointed in Baileys press conference. There was nothing there that gave me as a supporter any hope for the future, let alone any answers for today's disgraceful effort. If you can not be ready in round 1 when we started training before any other team, what hope do we have, for future success, to get more members and attract bigger sponsors. So Bail's whats next!!??

Dean Bailey is simply not up to the job.

Hopefully he will save us all the time and money and just PACK IT IN.

He has had two years of excuses to rack up as much poor football as should have to be tolerated for a decade.

There can be no more excuses. I am not asking for a win, I am asking for a semblance of a game plan and with that competitiveness that can allow the players and supporters to have some hope for the season.

What occurred today was a travesty and should not ever have to be tolerated again.

The senior players Bailey inherited from Daniher that he hasn't already cut are the following.

McDonald - solid captain easily in our best 22.

Dunn - Watches, doesn't do

Miller - Try's hard - not upto the level required

Jones - will be good but never great.

Moloney - is he good enough? I'm not sure.

Davey - great player, clearly not fully fit.

Rivers - serviceable

Sylvia - injured but had a great year, his first one, last year, under Bailey

Jamar - average today, we started thinking he was good but is he?

There's others but tell me which one is an A grade AFL player who played today fully fit and prepared

The answer of course is none of them. This is not Bailey's doing. He inherited an absolute trainwreck

His new players include

Watts - we'll just have to wait 2 -3 more years for his best

Scully, Grimes, Morton and Trengove - clearly topline players in the making

Jurrah - potential match winner

Blease, Strauss, Tapscott - talented youngsters

When the club says be patient they don't say it because we're shite and have no hope they say it because we have no A grade senior players (not even one!) and until we do we will struggle. We need to wait until the likes of Morton, Grimes, Sylvia(hopefully), Watts, Frawley, Garland are leading our club as 24 - 25 year old players. Sorry folks you can bash the coach all you like but until this happens days like today will happen. I suggest you get over it and take from the game what you can. Start with Scully,s debut. If that doesn't cheer you up then barrack for someone else.

The senior players Bailey inherited from Daniher that he hasn't already cut are the following.

McDonald - solid captain easily in our best 22.

Dunn - Watches, doesn't do

Miller - Try's hard - not upto the level required

Jones - will be good but never great.

Moloney - is he good enough? I'm not sure.

Davey - great player, clearly not fully fit.

Rivers - serviceable

Sylvia - injured but had a great year, his first one, last year, under Bailey

Jamar - average today, we started thinking he was good but is he?

There's others but tell me which one is an A grade AFL player who played today fully fit and prepared

The answer of course is none of them. This is not Bailey's doing. He inherited an absolute trainwreck

His new players include

Watts - we'll just have to wait 2 -3 more years for his best

Scully, Grimes, Morton and Trengove - clearly topline players in the making

Jurrah - potential match winner

Blease, Strauss, Tapscott - talented youngsters

When the club says be patient they don't say it because we're shite and have no hope they say it because we have no A grade senior players (not even one!) and until we do we will struggle. We need to wait until the likes of Morton, Grimes, Sylvia(hopefully), Watts, Frawley, Garland are leading our club as 24 - 25 year old players. Sorry folks you can bash the coach all you like but until this happens days like today will happen. I suggest you get over it and take from the game what you can. Start with Scully,s debut. If that doesn't cheer you up then barrack for someone else.

What really annoys me is that there are some clubs that draft ordinary players and turn them in to very good players and there are others that draft very good players and turn them in to duds. It seems that every thing we touch turns bad. I argued once that it was the recruiters that were the cause of the problem but more and more I'm becoming convinced that it's the coaches.

When was the last time we had a really good coach and when was the last time we were a real chance to win a flag?

I'm sick of seeing top draft picks come to our club and never live up to their potential, let's just hope that the current crop aren't going to be the same.

Good call Roost It.

Very easy to smash the coach, still not sure he's the man BUT I believe we're closer to a flag than when Daniher left us with alot of B grade player - he was very good at getting the best out of them, BUT not good enough to a flag....keep at it Bails, we'll get there.

What really annoys me is that there are some clubs that draft ordinary players and turn them in to very good players and there are others that draft very good players and turn them in to duds. It seems that every thing we touch turns bad. I argued once that it was the recruiters that were the cause of the problem but more and more I'm becoming convinced that it's the coaches.

When was the last time we had a really good coach and when was the last time we were a real chance to win a flag?

I'm sick of seeing top draft picks come to our club and never live up to their potential, let's just hope that the current crop aren't going to be the same.

You sound as pessimistic as Neil Mitchell.

What really annoys me is that there are some clubs that draft ordinary players and turn them in to very good players and there are others that draft very good players and turn them in to duds. It seems that every thing we touch turns bad. I argued once that it was the recruiters that were the cause of the problem but more and more I'm becoming convinced that it's the coaches.

When was the last time we had a really good coach and when was the last time we were a real chance to win a flag?

I'm sick of seeing top draft picks come to our club and never live up to their potential, let's just hope that the current crop aren't going to be the same.

Name these ordinary players that turn out very good players. I'll bet they are surrounded by a clutch of A graders who take the heat and bring them unto the games. Look at the list, these are ordinary players who when surrounded by the Neitz's, Yze's, White's etc were made to look good. Without this surrounding talent they are what they are ORDINARY FOOTBALLERS, no amount of coaching is going to turn that around.

I'll agree it would be nice to have the league's best coach but who is that exactly?

Exactly Roost it.

Chooka looked good since Gibbs, Murphy and co took the better defensive mids off him that he got with us, makes him look a much better footballer.

Jones was correct, Scully will make him a better footballer, as Scully will take the heat that Jones and Moloney cop now, soon it will go to Scully and Trengove and both of those will be much better footballers for it.

I didn't expect a win today........but certainly signs of improvement and progress from last year.

Today was simply pitiful.

There are no more excuses...........Hawthorns young / new players all came in, played their role and most importantly, knew what to do.

Peterson, Moss, Schoenmakers, Shiels, Kayler-Thomson, Suckling.........around 35 games played combined from these 6 players.....and each one had 15 or more touches today, and contributed. They slotted in with senior players out, and knew what they were doing.

Many of these kids have come off their rookie list, and aren't top draft picks!

Our players on the other hand made error after error, lacked composure and system, and continued to just run blindly forward and turn the ball over.

Bailey sold himself on educating players about the game, and building a more competitive team.......to date, I've seen nothing to this effect.

Jobe Watson on Before The Game tonight was asked about being happy with being "competitive" against the premiers of last year, and he responded by saying that some teams may be happy to just be competive, but that Essendon expects to win every game, and they are not happy with any result apart from that.

I'm sick of the Bailey rhetoric, and tired of watching our players play mindless football without any system.

Name these ordinary players that turn out very good players. I'll bet they are surrounded by a clutch of A graders who take the heat and bring them unto the games. Look at the list, these are ordinary players who when surrounded by the Neitz's, Yze's, White's etc were made to look good. Without this surrounding talent they are what they are ORDINARY FOOTBALLERS, no amount of coaching is going to turn that around.

I'll agree it would be nice to have the league's best coach but who is that exactly?

Let's look at it from another view. How many A grade players have we drafted in the last 15 years? None would be the right answer.

Does it seem strange to you and others on here that not one of our selections have turned out to be an A grader whilst other clubs have.

Then look at what we have disposed of, Darren Jolly, he couldn't get a game with us but is one of the Star Ruckmen in the comp now. Matty Bishop was not good enough for us but played in a premiership with Port same with Armstrong. Now I'm not suggesting that either of those boys were stars but they did better when the left us, their new clubs got the maximum out of them.

Nathan Bassett wasn't good enough for us, how did he go with the Crows?

How many of our other players both past and present would have benefited by leaving us? Heaps. We don't seem capable of producing top class players and when we get a talented player they never seem to achieve their best.

Our development of talent sucks and as long as it continues to do so we are always going to flounder.

Our development of talent sucks and as long as it continues to do so we are always going to flounder.

Spot on Robbie.

My concern is that the club expects young players to all develop and get better, despite the fact that the team keeps losing and losing badly at that. It's not just about the number of games the players play, it's the quality of games that impact on development.

The senior players Bailey inherited from Daniher that he hasn't already cut are the following.

McDonald - solid captain easily in our best 22.

Dunn - Watches, doesn't do

Miller - Try's hard - not upto the level required

Jones - will be good but never great.

Moloney - is he good enough? I'm not sure.

Davey - great player, clearly not fully fit.

Rivers - serviceable

Sylvia - injured but had a great year, his first one, last year, under Bailey

Jamar - average today, we started thinking he was good but is he?

There's others but tell me which one is an A grade AFL player who played today fully fit and prepared

The answer of course is none of them. This is not Bailey's doing. He inherited an absolute trainwreck

His new players include

Watts - we'll just have to wait 2 -3 more years for his best

Scully, Grimes, Morton and Trengove - clearly topline players in the making

Jurrah - potential match winner

Blease, Strauss, Tapscott - talented youngsters

When the club says be patient they don't say it because we're shite and have no hope they say it because we have no A grade senior players (not even one!) and until we do we will struggle. We need to wait until the likes of Morton, Grimes, Sylvia(hopefully), Watts, Frawley, Garland are leading our club as 24 - 25 year old players. Sorry folks you can bash the coach all you like but until this happens days like today will happen. I suggest you get over it and take from the game what you can. Start with Scully,s debut. If that doesn't cheer you up then barrack for someone else.

They say be patient because they honestly believe they don't know what each week will hold. It is fine to analyse players, but even a team of better players will flounder if they lack inspirational leadership. The key ingredient missing at Melbourne is a coach that instills pride and commitment in his players.

Selecting a coach from left field has seriously backfired. Bailey may do well with the corporate speak and press conferences, but he is not a proven performer at AFL level - be it as a player or coach. Hypothetically, would we be in a better position under Michael Voss, Rodney Eade or even Mick Malthouse or Kevin Sheedy??......most educated footballer observers would say yes.

I also can still remember the pride I felt supporting Melbourne in the late 1980's when a group of largely good to average footballers competed in a number of finals series under John Northey......he was the key reason for our success.....and we could have even pinched a flag with some luck.

The players are important, but the coach is the significant ingredient to on-going success at any club. Stop dissecting lists and look at the top for the real answers.

Let's look at it from another view. How many A grade players have we drafted in the last 15 years? None would be the right answer.

Does it seem strange to you and others on here that not one of our selections have turned out to be an A grader whilst other clubs have.

Then look at what we have disposed of, Darren Jolly, he couldn't get a game with us but is one of the Star Ruckmen in the comp now. Matty Bishop was not good enough for us but played in a premiership with Port same with Armstrong. Now I'm not suggesting that either of those boys were stars but they did better when the left us, their new clubs got the maximum out of them.

Nathan Bassett wasn't good enough for us, how did he go with the Crows?

How many of our other players both past and present would have benefited by leaving us? Heaps. We don't seem capable of producing top class players and when we get a talented player they never seem to achieve their best.

Our development of talent sucks and as long as it continues to do so we are always going to flounder.

Training facilities at the junction have finally caught up and bought the club down to a degree.

As Schwabby said, we start 3-4 goals down on everyone at present.

Training facilities at the junction have finally caught up and bought the club down to a degree.

As Schwabby said, we start 3-4 goals down on everyone at present.

That never stopped North, their facilities were as bad or worse than ours. it's not the quality of the surroundings at times it's the quality of the coaches, staff and the culture of the club.

Training facilities at the junction have finally caught up and bought the club down to a degree.

As Schwabby said, we start 3-4 goals down on everyone at present.

Excellent point.

Training facilities at the junction have finally caught up and bought the club down to a degree.

As Schwabby said, we start 3-4 goals down on everyone at present.

You make some very good points.....I do see our waste of talent being a reflection of not having a coaching group

to develop this talent. Perhaps the coach is too removed from this key aspect of his role at the club?

Development is one area we have definitely lacked over the years. Whether this has anything to do with our facilities I doubt.

Those calling for the coaches head need to gain some perspective. Bailey has had two years to structure the list. Now he has to begin to structure the team.

Bailey may need to "fire up" a bit and I agree that our club needs to set the expectation that we will win every game, like Watson has said about Essendon. It may be understandable that we do not and competitiveness may be the best we get out of this year but this does not mean that we should not set the expectation of winning. I have said this for years, even before bailey. The better clubs expect to win every week and losing HURTS. It is not something you can take lessons from and expect as a natural course of development.

Those who say "Hawthorn had many youngsters in and they did much better individually and as a team." If you take Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis and Roughead from Hawthorn and swap them with Moloney, McDonald, Bruce & Miller from Melbourne do you think the result would be different? How do you think the youngsters from either team would have appeared?

The problem at the moment does not lie with our youngsters or our coaches. It lies with our senior players which it takes time to turn over.

The senior players Bailey inherited from Daniher that he hasn't already cut are the following.

McDonald - solid captain easily in our best 22.

Dunn - Watches, doesn't do

Miller - Try's hard - not upto the level required

Jones - will be good but never great.

Moloney - is he good enough? I'm not sure.

Davey - great player, clearly not fully fit.

Rivers - serviceable

Sylvia - injured but had a great year, his first one, last year, under Bailey

Jamar - average today, we started thinking he was good but is he?

There's others but tell me which one is an A grade AFL player who played today fully fit and prepared

The answer of course is none of them. This is not Bailey's doing. He inherited an absolute trainwreck

His new players include

Watts - we'll just have to wait 2 -3 more years for his best

Scully, Grimes, Morton and Trengove - clearly topline players in the making

Jurrah - potential match winner

Blease, Strauss, Tapscott - talented youngsters

When the club says be patient they don't say it because we're shite and have no hope they say it because we have no A grade senior players (not even one!) and until we do we will struggle. We need to wait until the likes of Morton, Grimes, Sylvia(hopefully), Watts, Frawley, Garland are leading our club as 24 - 25 year old players. Sorry folks you can bash the coach all you like but until this happens days like today will happen. I suggest you get over it and take from the game what you can. Start with Scully,s debut. If that doesn't cheer you up then barrack for someone else.

To be fair- a good summary but gee our football department are very weak to develop this list.

listening to Bailey after the match at the press conference. You would think we weren't shallacked today, and lost by a couple of goals. the score flattered us.

Would have thought a public statement that what we produced is unnacceptable is needed here.

Just wonder if he has got the balls required to demand we play winning football.

That was pathetic today.

Good thread and you are right.

But there is one too many words in your thread title.

'Up'?

To win games of football a team needs to kick the ball through the big sticks. And to do this it helps to have players capable of performing such a task.

Liam Jurrah going down has absolutely screwed us!!

I guarantee this pre-seasons game plan was revolved around him as a major component to us successfully scoring goals. Players would have had confidence going forward due to there being a target that can be relied on to take the mark or bring the ball to ground in a controlled manner thus allowing small forwards a chance to contest the lose ball. Added to that, the opposition’s best back would have gone to him thus freeing up Bate (who will only be a solid contributor when he is the third and forth forward option, not the first).

Many (not all) of the contributors to this thread, need to take a few minutes to distance themselves from the emotion stemming from the weekend loss, and carefully read (or re-read) what Goodvibes wrote in introducing the thread 'Crisis in Confidence'. It is an first class post, and puts into context just where we currently are as a footy team.