Is that (treatment of Jack vs the Filth) true Dirty? I'm a Qld'er and only watched that game on TV (cameras didn't show much behind the play stuff). Good to hear that they roughed him up a bit - more incentive for Jack to build and toughen up a bit. In a couple of years time, he will return the favour...hopefully!

He received a number of 'friendly elbows' to welcome him to the big time. It didn't seem to worry Watts and i think he's too smart to fall for that stuff. It was also interesting that collingwood rotated their defenders onto Watts. They seemed to think that they had 3-4 defenders that could all do the job on a tall forward, so

it may not matter whether Watts or Jurrah play on the forward flanks. They will still have to deal with a good tall defender at some stage.

You're joking? Martin was not recruited to be a ruckman.

what else he going to be, he cant kick a football.

I reject your analogy.

Brian Lake rarely plays on the best attacker. Morris takes Riewoldt.

Lake is an attacking backman in the mould of Scarlett but he rarely plays on the number 1 forward.

We can split hairs over whether this person would or wouldn't take Jurrah, but I will tell you this now, without equivocation - sides will set-up their defence to counter Liam Jurrah should he spend his time in the forward line.

Now we can put Martin in there to help, or Jamar, or Bate, or Miller. But unless Jurrah is moved out of the forward line, other sides will still set-up their defence with the notion of quelling Jurrah.

So is Morris a better defender than Lake? Riewoldt is St Kilda's best forward, so from what you have been trying to tell me, best forwards get the best defenders, therefore the Dogs must rate Morris as a better defender. Morris would be their number 2 defender, Lake would be by far the best defender.

I saw Lake play on Hawkins in the Cats/Dogs final; Hawkins is far from their best forward, but the dogs had their best defender playing on him.

Your argument (from what I have read) is that the best forward (in this case LJ), will attract the best defender. Your theory about Morris on Riewoldt (and the fact you say Lake very rarely plays on the best attacker) is backing up my side of the argument. My argument is that LJ will not always get the 1st best defender, even though he is our best forward. Being our best forward doesn't mean he is our number 1 forward target.

I would love to see sides step up their defence when LJ is down there, because if they double/triple team him, it will mean we have loose players everywhere, so on the rebound, we will just pump it back in to our 2nd/3rd BEST forwards. I would hate to see LJ in that situation though as regardless of how mercurial he is, he will rarely win a 3 on 1 contest, although he did manage it sometimes this season.

Playing Jurrah on a HFF can still see him as our best forward, but what it will do is allow the football public the opportunity to see those freakish things. By playing him on a flank that sneaks up to the wing, and then down deep forward (but not for long periods of times) will ensure he doesn't attract that best defender. This is not a ploy to protect him, it's a play to let him do what he does best...the unpredictable.

Put it this way RPFC, I will be gutted if LJ plays as a FF for the rest of his career (with the opinion that Watts will eventually be our CHF), it will be the first time I would question Dean Bailey's coaching style.

Not sure if this is a shot at people like me RPFC, but I'm a self-confessed believer that Jurrah should play as our 3rd forward. I have heard from a close source to the Club that Stef Martin is being groomed as our main FF in years to come. add Watts at CHF, that to me leaves Jurrah as our 3rd forward.

Being the 3rd forward doesn't mean I think he is our 3rd best forward, chances are he could win our goal kicking for years on end. I would call Stevie J Geelong's 3rd forward (behind Mooney and Hawkins), but he still kicks heaps of goals.

The best part about having a 3rd forward like Jurrah (and Stevie J) is that generally, they will get the third tier defender meaning they will go in to that contest as favourites. If Clubs decide to put their 1st or 2nd defender on them, it will mean our 1st or 2nd forward will be matched up against an opposition Club's 3rd defender.

My opinion of Jurrah as the 3rd forward will come in to play from 2011 - once Watts and Martin have established themselves. This year, Juraah will no doubt get the 1st or 2nd defender, I just hope he can rise to the next level.

In regards to the photos - might have to cancel my subscription to Playboy - just found some new photos to get me aroused! Jones does look a heap leaner than previous years, Maric has bulked up - will be a very, very good player. I think we will find Scully wont be anywhere near ready to play round 1, however Trengove and Tapscott look likely.

Here you go RPFC, this is a paragraph I put in my original post on this matter. You have wasted a lot of people's time with this argument that you have clearly lost the plot on.

I reject your analogy.

Brian Lake rarely plays on the best attacker. Morris takes Riewoldt.

Lake is an attacking backman in the mould of Scarlett but he rarely plays on the number 1 forward.

We can split hairs over whether this person would or wouldn't take Jurrah, but I will tell you this now, without equivocation - sides will set-up their defence to counter Liam Jurrah should he spend his time in the forward line.

Now we can put Martin in there to help, or Jamar, or Bate, or Miller. But unless Jurrah is moved out of the forward line, other sides will still set-up their defence with the notion of quelling Jurrah.

wrong thread, sorry people

Here you go RPFC, this is a paragraph I put in my original post on this matter. You have wasted a lot of people's time with this argument that you have clearly lost the plot on.

I'll ignore the snide remark.

2011 will be a landmark year for both Watts and Martin according to you.

Jurrah is, for the foreseeable future, our number one forward. He will be treated as such, until someone of similar talents can compete with him - Watts when he is ready, and Martin never; he is not good enough.

Oh, and your naivete has touched on one thing that I should correct - Morris is the best defender at the Bulldogs in terms of keeping a player in check, Lake was AA because of his counter-attacking instincts and execution.

I'll ignore the snide remark.

2011 will be a landmark year for both Watts and Martin according to you.

Jurrah is, for the foreseeable future, our number one forward. He will be treated as such, until someone of similar talents can compete with him - Watts when he is ready, and Martin never; he is not good enough.

Oh, and your naivete has touched on one thing that I should correct - Morris is the best defender at the Bulldogs in terms of keeping a player in check, Lake was AA because of his counter-attacking instincts and execution.

I posted in my original post that Jurrah will most likely get the best defenders this year, that was my point in re-posting it yesterday.

The bit that you are clearly struggling to get your head around is that not always will the best defender line up against the best forward. You continually make other points, but this is the guts of my argument with you.

Not sure if I'd agree with Morris being the best defender at the Dogs, again that would be a personal opinion thing - I rate Lake as their number 1. Surely we would both agree on the fact that Scarlett is Geelong's best defender, so would he line up on Jurrah? As has been mentioned a number of times is this "discusiion", Mackie played well against him in the only game LJ has played against the Cats, why wouldn't he play on him again? The football world knows what LJ is capable of, but I can assure you if Thompson was satisfied with the job that Mackie did on him, he will more than likely play on him again.

If we had an intra-club match, would Warnock go to Jurrah, or would it be a better match up having Garland or even Rivers on him?

Can someone else please tell me/RPFC that what I am saying about the best defenders not always going to the best forwards is correct. It is all based on who is the best match-up (height, weight, speed). If I'm wrong, which I'm stuffed if I know how I am, I will happily apologise to RPFC.

Billy you are spot on.

LJ is our most talented and high performing forward. He is not suited to the 'sole key forward' role a la fev. His speed, height and game sense make him a far more dangerous option running away from and then back towards goals. We would be best positioned with another go-to forward that LJ can play off. We used Dutchy to this effect when he playe dwith Robbo or Neitz.

Jack Fitzpatrick looks like a Fraggle! I'm nicknaming him Fraggle

Billy you are spot on.

LJ is our most talented and high performing forward. He is not suited to the 'sole key forward' role a la fev. His speed, height and game sense make him a far more dangerous option running away from and then back towards goals. We would be best positioned with another go-to forward that LJ can play off. We used Dutchy to this effect when he playe dwith Robbo or Neitz.

This is a tired argument we are having but I will say again, Jurrah is the centre of our forward world for the foreseeable future.

Martin won't change that nor will any other tactic we wish to use. You can give him decoys, but that's all they are.

And I think Jurrah will be fine in that position.

RPFC, it is not a tired argument, although you may be tired of it. I see two possibilities: that Watts will 'be the centre', or there will be no centre but rather a rotating feast.

Jack Fitzpatrick looks like a Fraggle! I'm nicknaming him Fraggle

There it is, the missing nickname. Nice work Demon Tragic.

what else he going to be, he cant kick a football.

Oddly enough, Martin has one of the best 'kicking efficiency' stats in the team.

Maybe he is a terrible kick... but somehow the ball keeps ending up in a teammates hands after he kicks it.

RPFC, it is not a tired argument, although you may be tired of it. I see two possibilities: that Watts will 'be the centre', or there will be no centre but rather a rotating feast.

I am boring people, apparently.

And I meant 2010 - 2012, Watts will be little more than a decoy in these years.

Jack Fitzpatrick looks like a Fraggle! I'm nicknaming him Fraggle

I will post the nickname "Beaker" from The Muppets;

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1052/118325..._3390fcc71d.jpg

Would love someone who knows how to to upload a pic of this great character!

Billy you are spot on.

LJ is our most talented and high performing forward. He is not suited to the 'sole key forward' role a la fev. His speed, height and game sense make him a far more dangerous option running away from and then back towards goals. We would be best positioned with another go-to forward that LJ can play off. We used Dutchy to this effect when he playe dwith Robbo or Neitz.

Tim - THANK YOU!!! I can understand your point, and it is exactly what I have been trying to say to RPFC since this "debate" started. As you personally have seen from the above replies from RPFC, he really does have no idea what it is I/we are trying to say. What you have said is totally 110% REALITY.

In regards to your comment about a "go-to" forward, Stef Martin is the man that is being groomed, and will do it well. A go-to forward doesn't have to be the best forward in the team (as you said about Dutchy), but he has to do a job. And, a big part of that job is to make sure you CAN kick a bag of goals when you are matched up on a weaker opponent (a la Jamar's 5 goal haul).

Geelong are experts at having a go-to main forward in Mooney. They then have Hawkins (who gets the next defender), but they rely on Stevie J to kick goals week after week. Mooney is far from the best forward at Geelong, but plays that go-to role to perfection. When Stevie J doesn't kick the goals he needs to, Geelong then have a solid midfiled (and other forwards) that get the score on the board - exactly like the GF this year.

RPFC, your argument is boring, beacuse you are seriously not listening to what WE are saying. No doubt you have been pi$$ed off with me over the last few days, therefore will not listen to what I am saying, but surely you can see what timD is saying???

I'd expect Jurrah to be hit pretty hard by the opposition next season. 2010 is a whole new ball game. We'll be trying to win and clubs will need to turn up and play if they want the 4 points. We'll be full of run and bravado and players like Jurrah will come under close scrutiny. I doubt vey much whether he'll dominate many games like some of you think. No doubt he'll have some hot patches but the likes of Miller, Bate. Pettard, Sylvia and Martin are going to have to do most of the work if we are to start winning games. The forward line's improvement will need to come mainly from an improved midfield and that's still a while away.

RPFC, your argument is boring, beacuse you are seriously not listening to what WE are saying. No doubt you have been pi$$ed off with me over the last few days, therefore will not listen to what I am saying, but surely you can see what timD is saying???

You and I both believe that Martin can provide a target in the forward line to ease the pressure on Jurrah.

We are butting heads on this because I don't think Martin is anything other than a decoy forward whose ability to release pressure of Jurrah, and to a lesser extent Watts, will be minimal.

I agree that a forward line with Martin would function better, but I don't see him having the effect that you envision.

I have no problem with you Billy, if I did I wouldn't engage with you; I would be indifferent. And I don't ignore points, I may have misinterpreted the points that you think I ignored.

I'll put my two bob in.

I think you're somewhat both right.

As it stands right now, I think LJ is our number one forward who would attract the best possible defender /match-up if the opposition were fairdinkum. That's not to say though that things couldn't change in the following weeks, season or even during the actual match.

If LJ has the better of say a Scarlett, what is to say that Bomber won't throw Mackie to Jurrah in a game of chess ? He has played a little on Jurrah. The same could be said for vice versa.

Rp, When I say things could change during the season, Watts could potentially put his hand up as No.1 forward sooner rather than later, even though "gut feel" tells us that it won't happen until 2011-12. Honestly, we don't really know until things take place. But it would be naive to think otherwise. "Gut feel" also tells us that Liam Jurrah is the number one forward at present, despite Watts' progress or any other decoy such as Martin.

billy, I wouldn't say rpfc's argument is boring at all, firstly it's about nutting out how we think the Dees will function as a forward line and to any Dees supporter that is worth discussing on this forum. Secondly, rpfc quite rightly wouldn't engage discussion with you if he thought it wasn't worth discussing. You're asking rp if he has listened to your argument, on the flipside, have you done the same ?

I get what you're saying regarding Martin, a-la Mooney at Geelong in the go-to role. Are we certain the grooming will take place ? Unlike Mooney, Martin can be serviceable at other parts of the ground if things don't work out. What to then ? Do we try Garland in the same role ?

We haven't yet got the quality midfield of Geelong's to service our forward line. Ours is very much a work in progress. Are you sure the Mfc are modelling the same structure to that of Geelong's ?

The way I see it early on in 2010, we may see TimD's second assessment of a "rotating feast" whilst things develop and see how the cards fall. In today's game there are many match up possibilities depending upon the opposition at any one time.

One thing's for sure from my point of view, Liam Jurrah makes things happen. The side will be better for Liam playing in the forward line and will play a focal point. Wouldn't look out of place at Full Forward either.

I will post the nickname "Beaker" from The Muppets;

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1052/118325..._3390fcc71d.jpg

Would love someone who knows how to to upload a pic of this great character!

That's so good!

And I meant 2010 - 2012, Watts will be little more than a decoy in these years.

If Watts takes until 2013 to become more than a decoy, I'll eat my hat. Or our development coaches will have something to answer for.

There are some very conservative figures about the future being bandied about on these boards. What are we all afraid of?

Rp, When I say things could change during the season, Watts could potentially put his hand up as No.1 forward sooner rather than later, even though "gut feel" tells us that it won't happen until 2011-12. Honestly, we don't really know until things take place. But it would be naive to think otherwise. "Gut feel" also tells us that Liam Jurrah is the number one forward at present, despite Watts' progress or any other decoy such as Martin.

If Watts takes until 2013 to become more than a decoy, I'll eat my hat. Or our development coaches will have something to answer for.

There are some very conservative figures about the future being bandied about on these boards. What are we all afraid of?

Watts is 18. Some could say this will be his first season (2010) coming, having just finished Year 12. Remember, he is not a midfielder, he is a KP player. Is it conservative to suggest that we shouldn't expect too much from Watts in 2010 ? What do you expect from Watts in 2010 ?

Fact of the matter is, Watts still has alot of work to do in building himself up for AFL on a consistent basis. Strengthening and conditioning will take place. This will be his first real pre-season.

I would be happy with a return of 15 plus games including further development, conservatively speaking, before embarking on a hopefully fabulous footy career 2011 and onwards.

What do you expect from Watts in 2010 ?

I expect him to be a lot better developed than he was in 2009.

I was actually referring to the idea that Watts will be little more than a 'decoy' for 3 more years. I hardly think we needed to waste our No.1 draft pick on a role like that (even Newton could do that).

Supporters have some very conservative time frames when it comes to player development and team achievement. I keep seeing 3-4 years for players to 'show something' and have even seen 5-8 years mentioned for our 'premiership opportunity'.

Why so long and so reticent to aim high? If the club, team and players were actually aiming that low I'd be disappointed. We'd be beaten before we started. I'd be aiming for a year of good consolidation in 2010, finals in 2011 or 2012 and a good crack in 2013, maybe even earlier. Hawthorn did it in four years.

I expect him to be a lot better developed than he was in 2009.

..............

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Why so long and so reticent to aim high? If the club, team and players were actually aiming that low I'd be disappointed. We'd be beaten before we started. I'd be aiming for a year of good consolidation in 2010, finals in 2011 or 2012 and a good crack in 2013, maybe even earlier. Hawthorn did it in four years.

I expect him to be quite handy if not trailblazing in oh-10 He will be stronger and more capable for that. he probably wont hit his straps for a few years true, but I agree with ML..he will be a player..and next year.

I think many are erring on the side of caution having been bitten and burnt too often with expectations of this or that player having been showcased and then falling to medicocrity. I think the FD are far more in tune and capable now than even a few years back. The conditioning and development staff are better placed now to bring these guys on. Yes..it all takes time but not the small eternities some suggest..if this was the case youd hardly bother.

Supporters have some very conservative time frames when it comes to player development and team achievement. I keep seeing 3-4 years for players to 'show something' and have even seen 5-8 years mentioned for our 'premiership opportunity'.

Why so long and so reticent to aim high? If the club, team and players were actually aiming that low I'd be disappointed. We'd be beaten before we started. I'd be aiming for a year of good consolidation in 2010, finals in 2011 or 2012 and a good crack in 2013, maybe even earlier. Hawthorn did it in four years.

I suppose when the club airs off to the supporters that they're going to take their time in development and conditioning to the requirements of AFL, some of it rubs off on supporters. In particular Watts and his structured program 2009.

edit: -

Note that, James McDonald and the leadership group have urged the new recruits/2nd year players to go for it. Adding that when he started in '97 the next year they reached the Preliminary Final.

"When I first started in '97 we finished 16th and the next year we made a preliminary final. Footy changes really quickly and we're teaching the young boys not to wait just because they're a young group. Take the opportunities now."