Stop this discussion.

[Redleg 40,910]

Since the Port win on sunday we have many posters going feral and attacking the club. Hopefully we are not going to have seven more weeks of this.

We can assume that the footy department knows what our position is. No amount of attacks on here or on other sites will change what is going to happen. It is not helpful to the players or the club.

Can I suggest a moratorium on the ( list management/tanking ) issue until the end of the season. I am not suggesting we don't discuss possible recruits only the unnecessary attacks on the club.

It is abundantly clear that the whole football world including most on here know the value of PP's and getting the better players in the draft for the future of a club. Everyone agrees that Tom Scully will be a wonderful footballer and is the standout at the moment. Lets sit back and see if he becomes a Demon or goes elsewhere. Attacking the club will not change that one bit.

My last comment on the issue until season end is this " I will personally be devastated if we don't secure pick 1 in the draft and another inside the first 4".

[rpfc 28,410]

Since the Port win on sunday we have many posters going feral and attacking the club. Hopefully we are not going to have seven more weeks of this.

We can assume that the footy department knows what our position is. No amount of attacks on here or on other sites will change what is going to happen. It is not helpful to the players or the club.

Can I suggest a moratorium on the ( list management/tanking ) issue until the end of the season. I am not suggesting we don't discuss possible recruits only the unnecessary attacks on the club.

It is abundantly clear that the whole football world including most on here know the value of PP's and getting the better players in the draft for the future of a club. Everyone agrees that Tom Scully will be a wonderful footballer and is the standout at the moment. Lets sit back and see if he becomes a Demon or goes elsewhere. Attacking the club will not change that one bit.

My last comment on the issue until season end is this " I will personally be devastated if we don't secure pick 1 in the draft and another inside the first 4".

I usually love your work Redleg but the importance of your last line means what I said in another thread rings true: this is the dominant story of my footy club for the next 7 weeks and will define the next 10 years.

I have to discuss it somewhere and D'Land is fantastic at allowing me to vent, discuss, argue, and disseminate.

I have never, and will never attack, the club for winning 5 games this season (It is obviously the PA 'leadership' group that is at fault). Bailey has stayed true to his youth, and has pumped games into perrenially injured - doing the best for the future of the club.

[Jarka 767]

I don't understand why we wouldn't want to discuss a topic that is very important for our future, regardless of your stance.

Simple solution, if you don't want to read these threads then don't open them and create a post (or yet another thread on the topic).

Everyone wins and everyone is happy

[grazman 7,432]

Tanking is a non-issue!

After watching Dean Bailey's performance on the couch last night and then reading Cameron Schwab's comments in the Hun this morning I was left a little perplexed. Are the club really trying to tank? Do we suck at losing as much as we do at winning?

I take on-board Dean's comments that you can't really send players out onto the field and tell them not to try, but I think the whole issue is a very confused one.

Consider the AFL's position, namely that there is no such beast as tanking... that clubs do not try and seek an advantage at the draft by manipulating their performances on the field. Perish the thought. The draft after all is an artificial construct and priority picks aren't inherently evil; whether clubs deserve them I guess depends on where the respective supporter stands on the argument. I doubt that anyone other than Vlad spends less time worrying about tanking than the current coaches fighting it out for the top 8. So for at least half the competition the concept has no immediate relevance. For those with no realistic chance of making the finals though, there seems to be some sort of parallel universe happening - no one it seems wants to finish in the middle of the ladder.

Michael Malthouse believes this to be a blight on the game - that the prize for finishing last is so great that supporters are actually barracking for their club to lose. Priority picks aside this would still happen under any form of the current draft, someone will have pick one afterall.... unless of course we were to dismantle the draft and introduce free agency. Now which sort of club could benefit from that arrangement? Mick you sly dog - not satisfied that the current fixturing policy gives you enough of a headstart?

Certainly the reactions of some supporters would support his claims and leave me befuddled at times. It almost seems that they want the team to show signs of development - enough to underpin the expectations of future success, but obviously not so developed as to actually win. One minute we're terrible, the next we're not terrible enough. A case of having your cake and eating it too I'm tempted to suggest.

At the heart of the issue is how many gold plated top ten picks will guarantee for fans and sponsors the holy grail of a premiership? I'll be cruel and suggest going by some club's previous recruiting that 38 should just about do it.

Jack Scully (yes I know his name is Tom, but I'm calling him Jack!) is the name on the lips of every amateur recruiter and player manager. I'll go out on a limb and suggest there's probably 16 clubs that would love to have young Scully. The dilemma of course is that only one club will probably have that chance, and that his selection alone is unlikely to drag the sixteenth team to the finals let alone a premiership. 21 other players will be needed (granted the kid's good, but not quite that good). Gaining first selection in the draft is not a prize in itself, simply a means to an end (now there's an interesting philisophical argument) OK Melbourne have the likes of Watts and Grimes and eventually Jack Viney (yes I've already pencilled in SOT as a F/S selection) so Scully could well feel right at home with other developing talent, but is this just the vision of a delusional supporter trying to put a positive spin on a rotten season or is the club actually working towards a set of strategic priorities under a stable administation with a long term view of developing players?

Should I be more concerned by our performances against Collingwood, Essendon and Brisbane, or about a win over an insipid Port Adelaide at the G? If we don't win against Geelong, Sydney, Richmond and North, sides all above us on the ladder, can we really be accused of tanking? For every point of view, there's a contrary perspective with very little to hang a hat on in terms of fact or detail..I'm actually coming around to Vlad's reasoning - for all intents and purposes the issue of tanking is in fact a non-issue.

Maybe I'm being a little premature, but I'm firm in my belief that if you want something badly enough you have to make sacrifices... so I say to the sceptics out there ... welcome to the Melbourne Football Club Jack Scully.

Edited July 14, 2009 by grazman

[Dr Jekyl & Mr Hyde 0]

No club needs Tom Scully more than Melbourne FC.

Will be able to be used as a marketing tool in addition to what he brings to the side on game day.

It would be a tragedy if he ended up elsewhere.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Dr Jekyl & Mr Hyde

[donny williams no 25 0]

I usually love your work Redleg but the importance of your last line means what I said in another thread rings true: this is the dominant story of my footy club for the next 7 weeks and will define the next 10 years.

I have to discuss it somewhere and D'Land is fantastic at allowing me to vent, discuss, argue, and disseminate.

I have never, and will never attack, the club for winning 5 games this season (It is obviously the PA 'leadership' group that is at fault). Bailey has stayed true to his youth, and has pumped games into perrenially injured - doing the best for the future of the club.

This debate is absolutely debilitating! It must stop.Every time the team runs out onto the field, it must be trying to win. For anyone associated wsith the club to think otherwise is horrible--especially for the players.

Quite simply, the value of an additional draft pick DOES NOT equal the damage done to a team if everyone is not trying to win. Some time next year or the year after, the value of closely fought matches which the team has won, rather than lost, will be felt. A losing culture is bad--very bad.

Particularly when the team plays a side with ambitions for the 8 a win is incredibly important. And as I watched the last quarter my heart sank, knowing that half the posters on this site, would be gloomy rather than happy. It's terrible!

To demonstrate how silly it's become, sitting in front of me in the W.C match was a chap who kept shouting out words to the effect that both teams were keen to lose, after a player from either side buggered up a particular bit of play. When Jones went back into the oncoming pack and got himself more or less temporarily killed, a number of supporters nearby gave this 'supporter 'a piece of their mind. Was Jones not trying?

. Is there all that much difference between the first 5 in the draft? Look at Daniel Rich--did Freo do better selecting Hill instead of Rich?Would MFC have done a lot worse getting Rich instead of Watts? I suspect that over time we will think we did very well gaining Watts but the difference will be marginal. In the meantime allow our kids, both on and off the field to feel great when the team wins--wins have been few enough the last 3 years.

One last point. A friend who supports Carllton gets cvery heated about the fuss over Carlton's loss to Melbourne R22 2007. Carlton tanking? He won't have a bar of it pointing out that Whitnall--former captain and big star for the Blues, took about 12 marks after leading strongly. He kicked about 3 goals 6 from memory, and Blues lost. And Whitnall was delisted! Whitnall not tring? Rubbish!

[H_T 3,044]

This debate is absolutely debilitating! It must stop. Every time the team runs out onto the field, it must be trying to win. For anyone associated wsith the club to think otherwise is horrible--especially for the players.

You are right. Until the AFL eliminates the current predicament for the clubs that face this situation year to year, there will always be this scenario for die hard supporters.

[jacey 333]

Is there all that much difference between the first 5 in the draft? Look at Daniel Rich--did Freo do better selecting Hill instead of Rich?Would MFC have done a lot worse getting Rich instead of Watts?

First of all, Hill will be better then Rich.

MFC could do alot worse then get Rich then Watts. WE could've had both.

imagine Watts and Hill or Watts and Rich or Watts and Nicknat. That is what is at stake here. An opportunity to grab two highly talented players at the pointy end.

If you don't think that makes a difference, you are just plain wrong.

Winning culture pffft. MFC reputation. pffft. Our reputation has been smashed by losing 53 games over 3 seasons. We've lost Nicknat and to lose Tom Scully would be sad day for our club.

3 years of rubbish. 5 top two picks available and we get 1.

[H_T 3,044]

First of all, Hill will be better then Rich.

MFC could do alot worse then get Rich then Watts. WE could've had both.

imagine Watts and Hill or Watts and Rich or Watts and Nicknat. That is what is at stake here. An opportunity to grab two highly talented players at the pointy end.

If you don't think that makes a difference, you are just plain wrong.

Winning culture pffft. MFC reputation. pffft. Our reputation has been smashed by losing 53 games over 3 seasons. We've lost Nicknat and to lose Tom Scully would be sad day for our club.

3 years of rubbish. 5 top two picks available and we get 1.

We might just well be considered a bit of a laughing stock by AFL identities (opposing footy dep't), media and opposition supporters, if we don't finish with 4 or less wins.

As crazy as that might seem.

Edited July 14, 2009 by High Tower

[Hannabal 4]

Even a club icon in Garry Lyon believes that it's not in the best interests of his former club to lose the PP.

If a former club Captain acknowledges that winning is actually losing then you'd think every person at the club would hold the same view.

The club will be doing everything in its power, within reason to not win those two games, but ultimately it's not something that you can guarantee such are the vagaries of sport.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Hannabal

[TonyMelb 7]

One last point. A friend who supports Carllton gets cvery heated about the fuss over Carlton's loss to Melbourne R22 2007. Carlton tanking? He won't have a bar of it pointing out that Whitnall--former captain and big star for the Blues, took about 12 marks after leading strongly. He kicked about 3 goals 6 from memory, and Blues lost. And Whitnall was delisted! Whitnall not tring? Rubbish!

Donny, perhaps you are presuming a bit much about Witnall! He didnt try to hard during a lot of his career especially to get fit etc. so why was his attitude different in his last game?? Luckily he did not come to MFC!

Redleg. Not sure how by starting this post you hoped to end discussion on this issue???? Problem is that the media is all over this this week. Only distraction being the consecutive rising star nominations. We are all just going to have to tough it our over the next 5 weeks

[Jack7 528]

Us Demonlanders have no say on what happens re. PP.Sure it would be a great benefit to have an extra gun player on our list but that's not what the players want,they want to win every game they can and that's good enough for me as they train their guts out 12 months a year,play their guts out every week because winning is the only way to breed confidence and team success going forward.If that's what the players want,we have no voice on this matter,they play,we spectate,period.

Saints won 8 of the last 10 or 11 last year and that gave them huge confidence in the 6 month pre season and look what they've done this year.They had 6 months of belief and every training session would have been extremely positive.

Imagine pre season at the Dees this year if we had 3-4 more wins,confidence would be sky high for 6 months and round 1 couldn't come soon enough.I'd be happy to get Scully and miss PP if we had a few more wins.Freo and WC probably won't take Scully because of go home factor and WA won the carnival and have a lot of guns to pick from,Freo didn't even take Rich,i know Hill will be a very good player but Rich willl embarass them.The only way we will miss Scully is if the Tigers finish below us,which is possible with our players hunger for more wins.

Bottom line for me is if the players want to keep winning and miss the PP,that's good enough for me,they train and play 12 months a year,i watch!!!!

[Hannabal 4]

Saints won 8 of the last 10 or 11 last year and that gave them huge confidence in the 6 month pre season and look what they've done this year.They had 6 months of belief and every training session would have been extremely positive.

Bottom line for me is if the players want to keep winning and miss the PP,that's good enough for me,they train and play 12 months a year,i watch!!!!

Yeah, the 8 out of the last 11 the Tiges won last year was a huge fillip for them coming into 09.

And it's not about the players trying to win. We all expect that. It's about getting the best players possible before horrendous draft concessions come in, so that we give this club a chance at a flag.

That's if a flag actually appeals to supporters.

[Yze_Magic 3]

Silly me, I thought this was a discussion board.

[Hannabal 4]

Saints won 8 of the last 10 or 11 last year and that gave them huge confidence in the 6 month pre season and look what they've done this year.They had 6 months of belief and every training session would have been extremely positive.

Btw, any idea how many top 3 picks the Saints had in that team ? Four - Roo, Kosi, Goddard, Ball (2 stars plus 2 A graders). How many stars do we have ?

We have a chance at 4 too - Watts, Sylvia, Scully, Morabito/Trengove and throw in Morton at 4

It's too big an opprtunity to let slip.

That's if you actually want to see a flag.

[The Jack of Grimes 0]

Ridiculous post. Demonland is for demon issues, and there are no bigger issues than the issue of tanking (priority picks) vs winning matches. If we can't discuss it on here with other demon supporters, then whats the point?

[H_T 3,044]

Sure it would be a great benefit to have an extra gun player on our list but that's not what the players want,..........

Oh yeah?

They seem over the moon with the Warlpiri Wizard.

I'm sure they'd love to win more too. Pretty positive that they wouldn't mind the opportunity to play in a Grand Final or even a Premiership.

Edited July 14, 2009 by High Tower

[Gorgoroth 12,950]

A friend who supports Carllton gets cvery heated about the fuss over Carlton's loss to Melbourne R22 2007. Carlton tanking? He won't have a bar of it pointing out that Whitnall--former captain and big star for the Blues, took about 12 marks after leading strongly. He kicked about 3 goals 6 from memory, and Blues lost. And Whitnall was delisted! Whitnall not tring? Rubbish!

Yeah but Whitnall was playing his last game of AFL ever!

He was probably trying to win to [censored] the club that was about to dump his fat arse.

and I'm sure a lot of the players for carlton did try, but the coaches let Trapper run around with no one near him all game (what other coach did that?) on his way to 42 possessions.

Would Ratten do that now?

Would he leave our best midfielder to run around all game with out an opponent????....of course not.

Tell your carltank mate he is delusional.

He follows a team that cheats, tanks and are down right scumbags.

[Grand New Flag 3,227]

No one has ever suggested that our players should not be trying as hard as they can to win every game. I for one would be disgusted in any player who did not give their all in any game.

This is more about the decisions that are made off the field than the players on the field. Play more youth, trial players in new positions, play all fring players that are at risk of being delisted (like Whitnal in 07), trial new game plans.

Players like: Newton, Valenti, Whelan, Mckenzie, Bartram, Johnson, Highes, who are all in the shot gun plus players like Watts, Bunnell, Cheney who need experience must all be played.

Whats wrong with resting players. West Coast has been resting Cox and Kerr for weeks without any heat, we don't even have any players of this calabre, so this should be easier for us.

At the end of the day if we follow this formula, play youth, experiment and trial players but we win, that is ok. At least our coaches have done everything possible and thats all I ask. We must not lose our priority pick without at least trying out all our youth.

Never should a player ever be asked not to do their best on the field. I am certain this will never happen, but this does not mean we can't do more to ensure our priority pick and thus help ensure our future.

[Rogue 585]

No one has ever suggested that our players should not be trying as hard as they can to win every game.

Exactly. I move that any posts that suggest/debate this point should be removed, thereby cutting tanking-related discussion by around 20%

Furthermore I'm desperate for the 'winning culture' side to explain how a fifth win against a terrible side who is managing their own list would create a 'winning culture' that would aid us in the future. Any decent response needs to reference Melbourne's Round 22 win over Carlton in 2007 and Ninthmond's succession of ninth finishes (plus their great run home in 2008).

[jacey 333]

This is more about the decisions that are made off the field than the players on the field. Play more youth, trial players in new positions, play all fring players that are at risk of being delisted (like Whitnal in 07), trial new game plans.

WE should be doing all that and we should [censored] the players in training. Even have a massive training session 10am on gameday.

You won't get an answer Rogue cause they can't answer it.

[H_T 3,044]

Furthermore I'm desperate for the 'winning culture' side to explain how a fifth win against a terrible side who is managing their own list would create a 'winning culture' that would aid us in the future. Any decent response needs to reference Melbourne's Round 22 win over Carlton in 2007 and Ninthmond's succession of ninth finishes (plus their great run home in 2008).

WELL SAID.

[Redleg 40,910]

Since the Port win on sunday we have many posters going feral and attacking the club. Hopefully we are not going to have seven more weeks of this.

For Jarka, Tony Melb and a couple of others, the opening paragraph of my post, quoted here, contains the real thrust of my thread.

PS. If I knew how to change the topic heading I would remove the word "discussion" and substitute the word " attack".

PPS. I referred to attacking the club over this issue three times in my post and never said proper discussion should be abolished.

Edited July 14, 2009 by Redleg

[Jarka 767]

For Jarka, Tony Melb and a couple of others, the opening paragraph of my post, quoted here, contains the real thrust of my thread.

PS. If I knew how to change the topic heading I would remove the word "discussion" and substitute the word " attack".

PPS. I referred to attacking the club over this issue three times in my post and never said proper discussion should be abolished.

Redleg, that's fair enough. The reason why we're all here is because we're passaionate about the sport and our club. From time to time the emotions do get the better of us.

Your op included this statment, which is why I interpreted the way I did:

Can I suggest a moratorium on the ( list management/tanking ) issue until the end of the season

[Real Demon 232]

Btw, any idea how many top 3 picks the Saints had in that team ? Four - Roo, Kosi, Goddard, Ball (2 stars plus 2 A graders). How many stars do we have ?

We have a chance at 4 too - Watts, Sylvia, Scully, Morabito/Trengove and throw in Morton at 4

It's too big an opprtunity to let slip.

That's if you actually want to see a flag.

Spot on Hannabal!

Losing now only increases the likelihood of winning, and being successful in the future.

A successful culture isn't built on the back of junk time wins!

We lack gun players................we need an injection of A grade talent, and this is our last genuine crack at it!

You're right................it is too big a chance to let slide.