If we think Miller's not good enough, why not give Johnson an extended run at CHF. He's got all the attributes, can kick beautifully, and could do as Schwarz did and take the ruckwork on the forward line.Adds greatly to flexibility. I KNOW he's been played there from time to time--for about 5 minutes each time!

The man can't take a contested mark to save himself, and is hardly a beautiful kick.

I lost you at the Schwarz comparison

West Coast knew he couldn't mark the ball when they let him go.

Not true - he was quite a high draft pick when he was picked up. What West Coast didn't account for, and were massively surprised, was the development of Dean Cox. When he arrived at the club, he couldn't even bounce the ball. Then, Johnno did his shoulder and the rest is history.

No.

You are wrong there. His high draft pick is proof that they got it wrong as well. He was let go because of key weakness in his marking and work rate above the shoulders.

We punted on him after Jolly went and we made a bad call.

No.

You are wrong there. His high draft pick is proof that they got it wrong as well. He was let go because of key weakness in his marking and work rate above the shoulders.

We punted on him after Jolly went and we made a bad call.

We made a bad call? What else is new? Is that the same bad call that brought Ellis? Moorcroft? Pickett? Reid? to the Club - don't get me started there! My fixation with scapegoats doesn't finish with these two. The issue is that the selection panel see them as a 'soft' option at the bequest of others. There were several players whose form deserves a stint with the dew kickers.

They are a soft option to drop - drop McLean, Rivers, Jetta or Bruce. Their form doesn't warrant a game week in, week out.

McLean has been great in the month leading up to th Lions game. And he plays a different position to Miller and Johnson.

Rivers is returning from injury and has been patchy. He also plays a different position than Miller and Johnson.

Jetta has already been dropped for 6 weeks, has been getting assists lately (3 against the Lions). He also plays a different position to Miller and Johnson.

Bruce would be right behind Davey in the Bluey at the moment, his shoddy delivery aside, he runs a marathon every week and is a great player for the MFC. He also plays a different position to Miller and Johnson.

Miller and Johnson, up until this week have missed a combined total of one week. And they have been very poor of late.

This 'soft option' argument is not winning me over.

For fark's sake, it's their turn to be dropped, their form is woeful. As for Johnson, never is too early for him to play seniors again.

Whatever the case, dropping these two, will not turn the Demons around this week.

McLean has been great in the month leading up to th Lions game. And he plays a different position to Miller and Johnson.

Rivers is returning from injury and has been patchy. He also plays a different position than Miller and Johnson.

Jetta has already been dropped for 6 weeks, has been getting assists lately (3 against the Lions). He also plays a different position to Miller and Johnson.

Bruce would be right behind Davey in the Bluey at the moment, his shoddy delivery aside, he runs a marathon every week and is a great player for the MFC. He also plays a different position to Miller and Johnson.

Miller and Johnson, up until this week have missed a combined total of one week. And they have been very poor of late.

This 'soft option' argument is not winning me over.

McLean in great form?, what games have you been watching, Bambi should have been dropped weeks ago.

He is the ultimate fool's gold that too many posters buy.

A dominant ruck against Collingwood??? I dont think so. Spencer was alright early in the first quarter on Fraser then Fraser was BOG for 3 quarters and flogged Johnson particularly around the ground. In both games Fraser has pushed forward inside 50 and that fine mobile tall in PJ just did not stay with him.

Miller also has a fair old iron sulfide taint. He produces at a rate of one significant game every four, enough to keep his place in the team and for some to remain optimistic.

They are a soft option to drop - drop McLean, Rivers, Jetta or Bruce. Their form doesn't warrant a game week in, week out.

Jetta doesn't get a game every week. Rivers is doing OK in a backline that is under siege all game, every game. Bruce was our best player last week and has been consistently in our best all year. The only one you may consider dropping is McLean, but I'd get rid of Petterd, Wheatley, McDonald and Whelan before McLean.

Johnson and Miller are not the Future of MFC and should be DELISTED when their contract expires

Not interested in having these types in future MFC teams

There is NOTHING positive about playing these players in front of the kids that need game time

McLean in great form?, what games have you been watching, Bambi should have been dropped weeks ago.

In the 5 games from Rd 8 (against WB, Haw, St K, Coll, and Ess - some good midfields there!) Mclean has averaged 13 kicks, 12 handballs, 8 contested poss., 5 tackles, and 7 clearances.

That last stat is Judd-like...

His kicking hasn't been great but you don't put up numbers like that in poor form.

And you certainly shouldn't be dropped for it.

Some on here need to 'change their minds when the facts change.'

Johnson is a poor ruckman? I disagree entirely. Watch how often he gets the ball down to a team-mate. His 'taps to advantage' ratio [or whatever it's called] is quite high.

That is if he gets his hand on the ball. I will be interested to see the percentage his opponent beats him to the ball, and his opponent 'tap to advantage' ratio.

The matter of fact is he can't jump and not competitive enough in the ruck.

I fail to see what Johnson is actually good at football wise

I fail to see what Johnson is actually good at football wise

Johnson's ability to get alot of ball around the ground and his effort is probably whats keeping him going, to bad he cant use it, though you'll find a lot of ruckman are in the same boat.

In the 5 games from Rd 8 (against WB, Haw, St K, Coll, and Ess - some good midfields there!) Mclean has averaged 13 kicks, 12 handballs, 8 contested poss., 5 tackles, and 7 clearances.

That last stat is Judd-like...

His kicking hasn't been great but you don't put up numbers like that in poor form.

And you certainly shouldn't be dropped for it.

Some on here need to 'change their minds when the facts change.'

If you go by stats to back your point then you are not watching the game if you are then comparing them to Judd then you are being blinded by them, he has been poor, now whether it is through injury and if he is then he should be rested, if not dropped to Casey, some here need to 'change their minds when it comes to McLean'

PS stats today are not worth reading it is what you do with the pill and he ain't done much with it.

I'll agree with you there Jumbo, though not so much with Miller. He's the only mature KP forward we have ever relied on in the team and he's dropped off in the last month or two. I've carried on and on to the negative nancies on here like RR who love to stick the boot into players like PJ, who has at least played some really good footy this year, so if you don't change their minds, don't lose any sleep over it. They say little and know even less...

I think you'll find though that the dropping of both could be a bit more strategic. Miller, if he gets going, is worth a few wins to us a season. Or is at least worth 4 goals (in terms of what he creates, not kicks) a game... which is tantamount to saying he could have made a difference in a handful of games this year. Dropping him for a loss of form... or rather not "sticking with him" through a loss of form is kind of ok with me. Others do need to play SOME games, so why not take the opportunity now?

As for PJ, he played a shocker last week, and needed to be dropped this week. Pure and simple. There's really not a lot more to it than that. Though it says a lot about our so called "football supporters" that they throw all their support behind Jamar, and jump on PJ's back at the first sign of a loss of form, while ignoring the good footy he plays...

Says it all really.

Who would want to be a forward in our side?? Talk about a tough gig!!!!

I have no problem him going back to Casey to get some leather and confidence. Miller has just turned 26 and if we can fast track our recent and coming draft picks i think he will be vauable.

Get some ball wnners and goos delivery, Watts, LJ, Bates and say a Wonna playing good footy up forward Miller would add to that nicely.

There is no way he will be traded .

PJ, its a matter of finding where he fits in. He is capable of good footy. Maybe he is just a year or so away from it. He is very athletic, moves well, agile for his size, strong. Listening to Akka on the radio last season he said Jamar and PJ were huge.

PJ will not be traded either.

..................

Says it all really.

I think you did

Am not a real Miller enthusiast but was prepared to ackowledge his effort and seeming change of style but its disappeared. Perhaps there is a concern he could help us closer to a win and so is "managed" . I suspect itd more simply he's gone off the boil but either works for me.

Ol' PJ, I really thought he might amount to something but the holes in his repetiore are gaping now. Might be for the DCM list come end of season as some space needs to be found

As for PJ, he played a shocker last week, and needed to be dropped this week. Pure and simple. There's really not a lot more to it than that. Though it says a lot about our so called "football supporters" that they throw all their support behind Jamar, and jump on PJ's back at the first sign of a loss of form, while ignoring the good footy he plays...

You love PJ, fair enough, and nobody is saying that Jamar is some sort of superstar, but Jamar has shown more in his two games this year as a ruckman (note: that is the primary role of both), than PJ has over his career.

I will be surprised, if he is around next year (if uncontracted).

Bailey is not a fan of poor users and thinkers. PJ is both, so his survival seems improbable.

Both needed to stand up after having a reasonable year last year both have gone backwards. The 2 of them have been around long enough now so there are no excuses. It's about time we got rid of players who don't perform to our expectations.

I fail to see what Johnson is actually good at football wise

With his height & mobility he should be far more effective, trouble is too often looks like Tarzan but plays like Jane

They are a soft option to drop - drop McLean, Rivers, Jetta or Bruce. Their form doesn't warrant a game week in, week out.

jetta played well tried his guts out last week aginst lions was the only forward moving and running hard first year player cannot see anyone else deserving at casey espec maric needs to do alot more

Bruce runs all day long both ends kicking may lack him down but will finish second in the bluey to davey and would be a star in any other top 4 team yet ppl here hate him, and as for him being overpaid name anyone other than davey worthy of the salary we pay him

If you go by stats to back your point then you are not watching the game if you are then comparing them to Judd then you are being blinded by them, he has been poor, now whether it is through injury and if he is then he should be rested, if not dropped to Casey, some here need to 'change their minds when it comes to McLean'

PS stats today are not worth reading it is what you do with the pill and he ain't done much with it.

I was comparing the 28 clearances he managed to get against Haw, St K, Coll, and Ess to Judd. So you need to calm down.

He had a patchy start to the year, punctuated by some poor games, but his recent form has been much better than you, and others, give credit for.

Stats in-and-of themselves mean little, but don't tell me McLean had a poor month of footy leading into the Lions game and deserves to be dropped - because you're wrong.

You love PJ, fair enough, and nobody is saying that Jamar is some sort of superstar, but Jamar has shown more in his two games this year as a ruckman (note: that is the primary role of both), than PJ has over his career.

Nobody is questioning who is the better "ruckman". Jamar is a solid if unspectacular tap ruckman. 30 hit-outs against a teenager and an aging has-been would be par for the course. I'm not trying to diminish Jamar's ability in this area. All I've ever asserted was that hit-outs are a HUGELY over-rated statistic. Not only that, but PJ has gotten his fair share this season. More than his fair share actually, and given an opportunity against the rabble we played today, he would have gone to town. What frustrates me is how much people will today have a go at Nicnat for having 8 touches... somehow missing the fact that Jamar had, according to AFL.com, EVEN LESS! The other difference? Nicnat had all handballs, Jamar had one kick.

As for the comment about "over his career." What difference does that make? In any two games in his career (except maybe last week) PJ has shown more as a FOOTBALL PLAYER than Jamar has at any time, in any team, in any league. Seriously, if any one of the PJ bashers here can acknowledge the fact Jamar rarely gets 10+ touches, I'll eat my hat!

What we're talking about here... and I'll say it over and over til I'm blue in the face, then say it some more... is that Jamar IS the better tap ruckman. MFC fans simply have to make a choice between:

20 taps and 15-25 touches, and...

30 taps and a complete vacuum around the ground.

Those that say his delivery has been suspect this year are correct, however he has shown over his career that he delivers it well, and like the rest of the side, I think his kicking can be and has been better. I believe this enough to think that 2009 will be the exception.

I will be surprised, if he is around next year (if uncontracted).

Bailey is not a fan of poor users and thinkers. PJ is both, so his survival seems improbable.

You have rarely drifted from reality in your regular posts. Like me you're a glass-is-half-full poster most of the time, but outside a bit of unconditional love, you don't stray far from the truth.

This part is, I think, probably the first time I've seen you write something that is wholly separate from reality. PJ, according to some isn't having a great season. According to others, he's doing very well considering he has little support, and when called on, he's done a number of very good jobs, sometimes all on his own. The fact nevertheless remains he will average MANY more touches than Jamar this year, and probably when their careers are done. But the biggest fact is... He's played all but one game this year. He was dropped because he had a shocker last week, but apart from that has played plenty of good footy. And saying PJ isn't a good "thinker" is garbage. He thinks fine, it's his skills that let him down.

People saying he's going to be delisted when he's been played as much as he has have NO idea about the state of our list. Were there a Cox, Seaby and Nicnat on the list, he'd be in trouble. But as it is, he's been our premier ruckman this season for good reason.

I'll say it again. PJ ain't going nowhere, and nor should he. There is a whole HOST of players that need to go before him anyway.

What we're talking about here... and I'll say it over and over til I'm blue in the face, then say it some more... is that Jamar IS the better tap ruckman. MFC fans simply have to make a choice between:

20 taps and 15-25 touches, and...

30 taps and a complete vacuum around the ground.

I think you should acknowledge that Paul Johnson, since the Collingwood game (and probably before that), actually costs us 1-2 goals a game through direct turnovers near goal. Jamar does not touch the ball much and this is a bonus compared to PJ's adverse disposal.

Johnson tends to call for the ball a lot out of kick-ins, I'd prefer Grimes and Benell etc to have it in this dangerous area instead of the earnest, incompetent plodder that is PJ.