Blease & Strauss are CRITICAL to the Club's improvement

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

In both 94 & 98 we went close. By 2011 I think we would all be happy if we have had a year close to either of these.

"All good MFC players in their time but not elite and barely troubled the MFC team of the century." - This was my point. When fit they were able as a group to not only match it with the best but beat a lot of them i.e., close to elite level. Indivially none of them were elite, but as a group were on the verge. Right now 1st step get a midfield to compete thats it. then hopefully a couple develop into the star status. IMO brock mclean has whats required if he can stay fit. Watts in a hird type role could well start to fill the hole. Add a couple of B+ or A middies to this (morton, jones, grimes, struass, blease) and we may yet get there.

The truth is that no matter how much you gloss it we were well short in 1994 and 1998 and the reason was........we did not have the players (read stars) that step up in the heat of battle and excel in the toughest form of the game finals football. We have had no one thats elite. We have players that have been great on their day and seduce you to thinking that they are elite but inevitably they fall at the biggest hurdle. Maybe if injury/attitude had not cruelled them then one or two might have got there.

McLean could be an honest hard working midfielder that hopefully play more than 200 games for MFC but will never be elite.

Its his sixth year of AFL football coming up and he has not deliver anything from a performance level to suggest otherwise. Maybe with an injury free run... But his injury/fitness levels are a concern.

Here's hoping with Watts and others.

[Roost It 1,434]

The last real "star" or elite of the game MFC produced was Robert Flower and he retired in 1987.

Gary Lyon was elite

Jack Watts will be elite, hopefully so will Grimes and Morton

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Gary Lyon was elite

Gary Lyon was a wonderful player for the Club but not elite. Injuries may have robbed him of many games in 1995 onwards but despite his talent in other areas was not good overhead. He is close but not there IMO.

Post 1987 only the Ox (pre ACL problems), Jako (attitude and fitness) and Wiz (attitude, consistency, maturity and other issues) had the potential to be so but never took the steps.

[45HG 1,539]

New Demonland rule is definitely to never mention ST as a past Melbourne player, born and bred Adelaide player.

Crazy to say Watts will be a star, same with Grimes. They've played a total of 1 game between them.

[old55 22,853]

McLean could be an honest hard working midfielder that hopefully play more than 200 games for MFC but will never be elite.

Its his sixth year of AFL football coming up and he has not deliver anything from a performance level to suggest otherwise. Maybe with an injury free run... But his injury/fitness levels are a concern.

I'm still hopeful on McLean. I think he's possible elite. As you say - it depends on if he can get his body right . I think he has delivered elite quality e.g St.Kilda final, just not on a consistent basis yet because of injury. If he plays 20 games this year he'll win the Bluey and if we start to win games in the next few years he'll give the Brownlow a big shake. IMO he's still most likely on our list to be elite simply on exposed AFL form.

I reckon your McLean description fits Jonesy and I expect nothing less from him.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

The last real "star" or elite of the game MFC produced was Robert Flower and he retired in 1987.

Scotty Thompson would come close.

Even if we got lucky and one of these guys scaled the heights of the Buckleys and Voss', they'd just get stolen by VISY.

[Guest Schtacker]

The last real "star" or elite of the game MFC produced was Robert Flower and he retired in 1987.

MFC have had stacks of midfielders since then and we have not produced a star. Quantity does not guarantee quality.

Half of the 20 you list are NQR, mediocre or pedestrian. Some are not even midfielders. Some will not make it past two years of borderline footbal. There is a 2 or 3 that have potential with no certainty of making the big steps required. Not all of them will make the star level.

And its a stretch at best to have Watts in the midfield. MFC would want Watts to become a star but it is more than likely it will be up forward.

If we are to serious challenge in the coming years we need a quality midfielder that it includes the development of 2 or 3 top players within those ranks.

So that's how you make a critical post and say nothing at all

The MFC have said Watts may well become a midfielder and he has been widely likened to Hird. But i'm sure you know better when you say its a 'stretch at best'. Who else is not potentially a midfielder, in the broader sense of the word? Why don't you state which of them are NQR and not going to last 2 years as if you could possibly have any clue!

Basically what you are saying is that we cannot produce stars even with top5 draft picks and hence we are doomed. OK thanks for that. BTW we may not have had the top shelf but we've had very good players - all of Neitz, White, Yze, Bruce and Johnstone were awesome at the peak of their careers. They were also part of some very competitive sides

"If we are to serious challenge in the coming years we need a quality midfielder that it includes the development of 2 or 3 top players within those ranks."

That's just brilliantly insightful, that is

Care to clarify what exactly the point of your post was? Mine was that it would be an amazingly bad fark-up, and surely rather unlikely, if we were to not produce a few guns from a list like that. You seem to be disagreeing with me? <_<

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The MFC have said Watts may well become a midfielder and he has been widely likened to Hird.

Watts is 17 and 195cm and still growing. If he lives up to his potential then he should be good enough to play anywhere. However at 195+cm and athletic I think he is more than likely to make it KPP forward or even back. And hyperbolic comparisons to the game greats like Hird are designed to excite the linear minded. Oh and if he is "Hird like", then he certainly wont be corralled to the midfield

But i'm sure you know better when you say its a 'stretch at best'. Who else is not potentially a midfielder, in the broader sense of the word? Why don't you state which of them are NQR and not going to last 2 years as if you could possibly have any clue!

I would not dare Shhtack and is it likely to upset your quantity list!

Basically what you are saying is that we cannot produce stars even with top5 draft picks and hence we are doomed.

Wrong again Shtack. Go and re-read.....slowly

OK thanks for that. BTW we may not have had the top shelf but we've had very good players - all of Neitz, White, Yze, Bruce and Johnstone were awesome at the peak of their careers. They were also part of some very competitive sides

All those players were possibly in the top bracket of players we have produced in the past 15 years but all have their limitations and none despite the fondness of MFC supporters to overstate their careers are or were A grade stars. At best they were B graders. And even at their best, MFC continually feel short in in the finals. And your inclusion of TJ in that bracket only highlights my point. The guy had loads of talent but did not deliver on it consistently. IMO for a No1 pick he has woefully underperformed expectations at two clubs now.

Every Club has had very good players and had competitive sides. I think MFC would be the only club that in the past 20 years has not produced at least bona fide star and our mediocre results as a Club only re inforces that point. Or from another perspective, name a premiership side over the past 15 years that has not had at least one real star player to cap off a solid list of capable players.

"If we are to serious challenge in the coming years we need a quality midfielder that it includes the development of 2 or 3 top players within those ranks."

That's just brilliantly insightful, that is

I would re read the quoted section again and then considered that against what you thought I was saying.

That's what I am saying, that is!

Care to clarify what exactly the point of your post was?

Well done Shhhtack. You gone front and centre to attack my view without having the courtesy or common sense to actually understand what it is. A surprise.

Mine was that it would be an amazingly bad fark-up, and surely rather unlikely, if we were to not produce a few guns from a list like that. You seem to be disagreeing with me? <_<

Just re-read posts#70 and 72 on this thread....slowly.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Scotty Thompson would come close.

Circa 2004....not even close. He played 12 very good games in 2004 and was emerging but his best football has been at the Crows.

[old55 22,853]

Circa 2004....not even close. He played 12 very good games in 2004 and was emerging but his best football has been at the Crows.

We're harsh on our own because we know them too well. Todd Viney was at least as good as Scott Thompson and I'd wouldn't call Todd a star. We've had briefly burning stars since Flower but they haven't peformed on a consistent basis for one reason or another - Brian Wilson in his Brownlow year, Schwarz in 94, even Stynes in 91 if you like that kind of play. Consistent elite performance is probably part of the definition of star.

Don't get me wrong tho, Scott Thompson or Brad Sewell would be very nice to have at our club right now.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

We're harsh on our own because we know them too well. Todd Viney was at least as good as Scott Thompson and I'd wouldn't call Todd a star. We've had briefly burning stars since Flower but they haven't peformed on a consistent basis for one reason or another - Brian Wilson in his Brownlow year, Schwarz in 94, even Stynes in 91 if you like that kind of play. Consistent elite performance is probably part of the definition of star.

Don't get me wrong tho, Scott Thompson or Brad Sewell would be very nice to have at our club right now.

Exactly right about Todd and Scott Thompson. Loved Viney as a hardworking strong and solid footballer but he was not a star.

Consistency at a high level is very important to be a star. MFC have seen players who have flashes or stanzas of top football but they do not maintain that standard over a sustained period of their career (eg like a Buckley, Hird or Voss)

I am with you about wanting to have Thompson and Sewell at MFC.

[old55 22,853]

Consistency at a high level is very important to be a star. MFC have seen players who have flashes or stanzas of top football but they do not maintain that standard over a sustained period of their career (eg like a Buckley, Hird or Voss)

Clearly Allen Jakovich heads the list.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Clearly Allen Jakovich heads the list.

No doubt about that one.

I would have added Farmer as well during his time at MFC. Could be devastating at times in playing one of the most difficult positions on the field. However post MFC, other issues in his life deteriorated his brilliance and and he finished a nasty, angry player who tarnished what should could have been a really impressive career.

[donny williams no 25 0]

No doubt about that one.

I would have added Farmer as well during his time at MFC. Could be devastating at times in playing one of the most difficult positions on the field. However post MFC, other issues in his life deteriorated his brilliance and and he finished a nasty, angry player who tarnished what should could have been a really impressive career.

Well, on a different note--what about Meesen? How on earth did we trade for him? I read that he was to be an answer to the problems caused by huge ruckman and at 201cm that seemed right. Imagine my surprise when I saw him with White, Jamar and Paul Johnson at the dreadful TAC Cup match at Geelong last year--he's no taller than Jamar and quite a lot smaller than P.Johnson.And is there any reason to believe he can play? Andy Lovell was a bit cool on him in his post-season Sandy wrap-up. Adelaide originally picked him up as a high first-round draft I beleve--what's happened to him?Any chance?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Well, on a different note--what about Meesen? How on earth did we trade for him? I read that he was to be an answer to the problems caused by huge ruckman and at 201cm that seemed right. Imagine my surprise when I saw him with White, Jamar and Paul Johnson at the dreadful TAC Cup match at Geelong last year--he's no taller than Jamar and quite a lot smaller than P.Johnson.And is there any reason to believe he can play? Andy Lovell was a bit cool on him in his post-season Sandy wrap-up. Adelaide originally picked him up as a high first-round draft I beleve--what's happened to him?Any chance?

His height is not the problem. He is listed on the MFC website as 200cm. PJ is listed as 199cm. Jamar is 198cm.

His performance last year in the VFL was disappointing to say the least. He has two years to turn it around. Lets see what he can do.

[Guest Schtacker]

Watts is 17 and 195cm and still growing. If he lives up to his potential then he should be good enough to play anywhere. However at 195+cm and athletic I think he is more than likely to make it KPP forward or even back. And hyperbolic comparisons to the game greats like Hird are designed to excite the linear minded. Oh and if he is "Hird like", then he certainly wont be corralled to the midfield

I would not dare Shhtack and is it likely to upset your quantity list!

Wrong again Shtack. Go and re-read.....slowly

All those players were possibly in the top bracket of players we have produced in the past 15 years but all have their limitations and none despite the fondness of MFC supporters to overstate their careers are or were A grade stars. At best they were B graders. And even at their best, MFC continually feel short in in the finals. And your inclusion of TJ in that bracket only highlights my point. The guy had loads of talent but did not deliver on it consistently. IMO for a No1 pick he has woefully underperformed expectations at two clubs now.

Every Club has had very good players and had competitive sides. I think MFC would be the only club that in the past 20 years has not produced at least bona fide star and our mediocre results as a Club only re inforces that point. Or from another perspective, name a premiership side over the past 15 years that has not had at least one real star player to cap off a solid list of capable players.

I would re read the quoted section again and then considered that against what you thought I was saying.

That's what I am saying, that is!

Well done Shhhtack. You gone front and centre to attack my view without having the courtesy or common sense to actually understand what it is. A surprise.

Just re-read posts#70 and 72 on this thread....slowly.

Hmmm appreciate your thoughts but I'll still go with Prendergast:

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/News/NewsArt...px?newsId=70460

Player comments

Selection No.1: Jack Watts

Sandringham Dragons/Brighton Grammar, VIC, Tall forward, March 26 1991, 194cm, 85kg

"He's got all the physical attributes, but he's also got an awareness for the game. He's a good kick, a good decision maker, and he's got some versatility about him. He can push up into the midfield and looks equally at home there. He's got a lot of scope to develop in a lot of areas across the ground."

Why bother saying blokes are NQR but refusing to name them?

"At best they were B graders"

Even with their All-Australian selections and high Brownlow finishes? How many players in the league are in this 'A grade' of yours? About 10 out of 700 I suppose

If you make your post unclear there is no use just telling someone to read it again

There is every reason to suggest we have a very strong midfield in the making. You have not been able to convince me otherwise thus far

[stueyspencer no12 73]

His height is not the problem. He is listed on the MFC website as 200cm. PJ is listed as 199cm. Jamar is 198cm.

His performance last year in the VFL was disappointing to say the least. He has two years to turn it around. Lets see what he can do.

Sorry Mate--I also can read!

I promise you he's not 200cm. After I'd seen him at Kardinia Park I mentioned it to another Demonland member--his verdict? "he's no taller than Jamar' whereas we were told he would help against the Sandilands etc.

But the more serious question is how did Bailey--with his S.A experience, get it so wrong?He must have seen him play. He's holding down a valuable spot on the list and with great respect to the lad, I don't think he'll play a game. I really hope I'm wrong.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Hmmm appreciate your thoughts but I'll still go with Prendergast:

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/News/NewsArt...px?newsId=70460

Player comments

Selection No.1: Jack Watts

Sandringham Dragons/Brighton Grammar, VIC, Tall forward, March 26 1991, 194cm, 85kg

"He's got all the physical attributes, but he's also got an awareness for the game. He's a good kick, a good decision maker, and he's got some versatility about him. He can push up into the midfield and looks equally at home there. He's got a lot of scope to develop in a lot of areas across the ground."

Push up into the midfield from where????

Why bother saying blokes are NQR but refusing to name them?

Because I know Shhtack you're smart enough to work it out.

Try work to this formula....Take out McLean and those players who have had less than 3 years or more on the list. Got the thinking cap on.

"At best they were B graders"

Even with their All-Australian selections and high Brownlow finishes? How many players in the league are in this 'A grade' of yours? About 10 out of 700 I suppose

Brilliant deduction Shhtack. Its not many. Go and re-read where I have said that stars need to be consistently superior over a number of years.

If you make your post unclear there is no use just telling someone to read it again

Thanks for confirming a perception.

There is every reason to suggest we have a very strong midfield in the making. You have not been able to convince me otherwise thus far

We may indeed. But your premise that the quantity of midfielders will lead to quality players is not necessarily the case. BTW, I never tried to convince you of that

[e25 5]

Sorry Mate--I also can read!

I promise you he's not 200cm. After I'd seen him at Kardinia Park I mentioned it to another Demonland member--his verdict? "he's no taller than Jamar' whereas we were told he would help against the Sandilands etc.

But the more serious question is how did Bailey--with his S.A experience, get it so wrong?He must have seen him play. He's holding down a valuable spot on the list and with great respect to the lad, I don't think he'll play a game. I really hope I'm wrong.

Although Bailey would have a fair amount of input, didn't the recruitment responsibilities lie with CAC at the time??

And seriously, how much could Bailey really know, just because they were in the same city for a few years? I'm sure his focus was elsewhere during that time anyway.

But Meesen went to the same high school as me & played school footy with my brother for (i think) 4 years while I watched and we don't have a bloody clue what his problem is.

He always looked like he was gonna be great, but ... i dunno... maybe it was just cos he was taller & could cover more ground - beyond that he is lacking... To be honest it seems like its between the ears.

Ruckmen do stereotypically take a while, so maybe he'll still come good... but don't hold your breath.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Sorry Mate--I also can read!

I promise you he's not 200cm. After I'd seen him at Kardinia Park I mentioned it to another Demonland member--his verdict? "he's no taller than Jamar' whereas we were told he would help against the Sandilands etc.

But the more serious question is how did Bailey--with his S.A experience, get it so wrong?He must have seen him play. He's holding down a valuable spot on the list and with great respect to the lad, I don't think he'll play a game. I really hope I'm wrong.

I'll say it again. His height aint his major problem. Whether he is 198,200,201cm means diddlysquat against Sandilands if he is not up to it like he showed this year.

Or should we get Peter Street (211cm) for next year?

[Guest Schtacker]

Push up into the midfield from where????

Because I know Shhtack you're smart enough to work it out.

Try work to this formula....Take out McLean and those players who have had less than 3 years or more on the list. Got the thinking cap on.

Brilliant deduction Shhtack. Its not many. Go and re-read where I have said that stars need to be consistently superior over a number of years.

Thanks for confirming a perception.

We may indeed. But your premise that the quantity of midfielders will lead to quality players is not necessarily the case. BTW, I never tried to convince you of that

So your response to the question is basically to call me stupid four times within five statements. All that does is prove your own inability to mount an argument. All you have done is be completely wrong about dismissing Watts' potential as a midfielder just to suit your argument we have no future midfield. So you whinge about the fact we have not produced a 1-in-70 type player, well you do the math smart guy by that logic there should be less than one of these type of players for every four clubs. If that's your criteria than it's not nearly such a sin is it? If there are ten of these players currently going around, what do you think of #11 who has just missed your cutoff? Don't you see how arbitrary it is to draw some imaginary line of quality and then say that all MFC players fall short of this line? You can't just say, yeah we've had some good players, but we haven't had that miracle player' - even if you are right, what is your point? We have new, highly-picked players and an entirely new coaching staff, admin and facilities. What has occurred in the last 20 years is not particularly relevant is it? And am I supposed to be an idiot for not innately guessing your 'formula', which is 'everyone over 21 except McLean is rubbish'? Which is saying Jones, Davey, Sylvia, Dunn, Buckley and Moloney are all rubbish? Well that's just plain crap! 2-4 of them will be key midfielders for us plus McLean and about 15 promising kids to make up the rest.

And for the 2nd time you are unable to tell me your point. Your response, again, is basically 'you are too dumb to know what my point is'. Right. Maybe you should actually try stating what it is then. BTW I will be bumping this thread when our midfield is cooking in 2-4 years.

[Guest Schtacker]

Sorry Mate--I also can read!

I promise you he's not 200cm. After I'd seen him at Kardinia Park I mentioned it to another Demonland member--his verdict? "he's no taller than Jamar' whereas we were told he would help against the Sandilands etc.

But the more serious question is how did Bailey--with his S.A experience, get it so wrong?He must have seen him play. He's holding down a valuable spot on the list and with great respect to the lad, I don't think he'll play a game. I really hope I'm wrong.

With the importance of ruckmen (at least at that stage) and the fact we had diddly squat coming down the pipe, they took a bit of a punt and used a midlle-ish pick on a prospect who was taken with pick 8. Not an unforgivable error. Besides, he is not necessarily a complete waste yet.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

So your response to the question is basically to call me stupid four times within five statements. All that does is prove your own inability to mount an argument. All you have done is be completely wrong about dismissing Watts' potential as a midfielder just to suit your argument we have no future midfield. So you whinge about the fact we have not produced a 1-in-70 type player, well you do the math smart guy by that logic there should be less than one of these type of players for every four clubs. If that's your criteria than it's not nearly such a sin is it? If there are ten of these players currently going around, what do you think of #11 who has just missed your cutoff? Don't you see how arbitrary it is to draw some imaginary line of quality and then say that all MFC players fall short of this line? You can't just say, yeah we've had some good players, but we haven't had that miracle player' - even if you are right, what is your point? We have new, highly-picked players and an entirely new coaching staff, admin and facilities. What has occurred in the last 20 years is not particularly relevant is it? And am I supposed to be an idiot for not innately guessing your 'formula', which is 'everyone over 21 except McLean is rubbish'? Which is saying Jones, Davey, Sylvia, Dunn, Buckley and Moloney are all rubbish? Well that's just plain crap! 2-4 of them will be key midfielders for us plus McLean and about 15 promising kids to make up the rest.

And for the 2nd time you are unable to tell me your point. Your response, again, is basically 'you are too dumb to know what my point is'. Right. Maybe you should actually try stating what it is then. BTW I will be bumping this thread when our midfield is cooking in 2-4 years.

Good work Shhtack. Cracking bit of melodrama without any content. Ripping stuff. Now dont give yourself a headache.

I'll remember not to try anything too sharp for you next time. Its a deal. And dont bump the thread in future years Shhtack you just might even realise the amount of floss you have written and how little you actually comprehended back then.

[stueyspencer no12 73]

I'll say it again. His height aint his major problem. Whether he is 198,200,201cm means diddlysquat against Sandilands if he is not up to it like he showed this year.

Or should we get Peter Street (211cm) for next year?

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

RE: Scotty Thompson

MFC have had stacks of midfielders since then and we have not produced a star.

Circa 2004....not even close. He played 12 very good games in 2004 and was emerging but his best football has been at the Crows.

His best football was at the crows... but you used the word "produced." I've believed that all along we produced this player. He was traded for a first rounder because he came of age while still at the demons. His best footy was played at the crows, yes, but he was "produced" at MFC. Would he be the same player if he was still in red and blue? The media would certainly say no... However I think had he stayed he'd be pretty much the same player.

Having said all that, your argument is that Flower is the only star we've produced for a long time. And as far as Scotty Thompson goes, I think it's fair to say ST is not going to scale RF's heights. But then, RR, have you considered that Robbie is pretty tough competition for ANY footballer to be compared to? You have to go back nearly a lifetime to find a better MFC player, but then is that the fault of the players themselves? Or is it because Robbie was just that good?

Your overall point is well made, and I agree.