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But yes we have injuries and next to no depth so......

I think when he was first traded to the club there was a void in leadership around the place which he helped to fill. But now we have others who have stepped up TMac being an example. On field he has been dissapointing, we can't keep just rolling out the "big body" "ties up a key defender" line each week. Teams no 1 defender will go to Hogan. I don't think he is providing a headache for opposition teams when doing their analysis of us. Would love to know how much is left on his contract for next year.

Frost.

If that scenario were to happen that would be bloody sensational. I think a couple of players could do with a fresh start and both player and club would benefit.

Could we afford that with the current dead wood on the list?

Again, which clubs need a "Dawes" and what is his worth?

mitch thorp/ Joel selwood

I'd add to that we had the luxury of clubs thinking that player x was actually a good player but we couldn't develop him ie Sylvia. But with our current coaching panel we no longer have that meaning trade values are at rock bottom.

This should in part be merged with the 2015 contracts thread. I keep reading throw big $$$$ at player x. We currently have about 6-7 players tied up until the end of 2016 who aren't AFL standard, and some of them our biggest earners. From memory only 1 maybe 2 was Roos doing. Problem is you can only move on 11 per year, and sadly I thought those days we're behind us. But reality is our list is a mess. Again, I hope their contracts were front loaded, if that's the case we might be able to pull a rabbit out of the hat. A handful of injuries and our list is exposed. Thankfully Hogan is signed up until 2017, otherwise we'd be screwed. A question I asked the other day, (this was based on hearing about Roos/Longmire looking at potential draftees) how many on our list fill these two criteria 1- natural competitor 2- can use the footy? I'd say less than half the list. But how many fall under promising junior(possibly developed wrong)/great clubman/great speaker/nice bloke...... It's time to cut the crap. If they can't kick the ball under Roos/Goodwin/McCartney they never will be able to. Just a thought, who'd take Dawes if offered up? The lions? Would anyone? The whole "premiership player/leadership tag" has worn thin. These are the kind of things I hope the club looks into come years end. I wish Frost didn't get injured. The possible Trengove trade showed the realisation that we need to become ruthless. There are a couple of similar decisions pending at years end. I can only hope that these ones go through.

In today's game where players play their role, their worth to the team isn't always reflected in dream team points. Jetta being a great example.

I thinks it's now fair to say kids excluded we don't even have a best 22. I would guess we are spending 2-3 million dollars on players that had potential and have delivered nothing. Our only hope is we front loaded their contracts because there's at least 5-6 who are signed until the end of next year who need to be traded or paid out.

What relevance does dream team points have?

How many on the list including those who didn't play yesterday fill both the following criteria 1- a natural competitor 2- above ave or elite disposal?

I hope you're right and that this becomes a permanent move.

He would be lucky to see the ball today. Next two games very winnable.

Say goodnight. Sleeper hold.

Whilst I think we need to go into every game with a winning mindset, I think today is more about wining small battles across the ground. Tmac on the Rough, .....

Its more than games played for me, most of their players have elite/above average disposal.

Youve missed the point WJ, it's not about today's game it's about the long term future of this club. I won't be commenting anymore on Watts/Grimes until after rd 22 when we're discussing trades. I think everyone is aware of my thoughts on these two.

Absolute drivel. I could just as easily argue that those that want Watts and Grimes in the team want the team to fail simply by their inclusion. Watts form today has nothing to do with his debut as does Grimes form to do with being made the captain. They both excelled at junior levels and haven't made the transition, this is when most would argue they haven't been developed properly. This is when I would say they've had two pre seasons under Roos and one under McCartney and lots of other players are taking the step. Watts isn't being bullied or victimised he is simply under scrutiny like 800 other players are. If he doesn't like it don't play the game. Most of us have an emotional/financial investment in this club and have done for years, we're entitled to our opinion. Does this make us pathetic, no I'd say pathetic is reserved for those who go around labelling other posters on this forum.

To suggest people enjoy seeing him fail is off the mark.

The team that played Richmond was better.

Hold on a minute I distinctly remember him being involved in a verbal altercation with Rhyce Shaw after being subbed in.

Exactly, Watts has had 28 games under Roos, it's not like he hasn't tried. Problem is before Roos took over there was still that mindset of "under the right coach Watts will excel", that theory has now been put to bed. Time to cut our losses at seasons end, start looking for the next VB to bring in.

The way I look at it is as follows, Watts/Grimes/M.Jones/Bail are all but finished. JKH and Newton I believe will become good consistent players for the club long term but after Watts stuffing the "needs time rule" for everybody Roos has acted. Let's be honest even with our best 22 playing we'd still fall short. Whilst Grimes and co will be thinking they actually have something to offer the club onfield , truth be known they're just keeping the bench warm whilst players return from injury or spend a couple of games working on areas of their games in the VFL. Watts and Grimes to be traded at years end. Then they go to a new club and prove all of the doubters wrong. Problem is finding a club dumb enough to take them.