Demon Dynasty

Why do some have a list as long as an arm and the Cats and ourselves only have one listed Dazzle?

Even the champs make occasional stupid errors AF. Might be a late bloomer being so tall and a bit unco early. Not saying he''s a champ or must keep player but certainly better than some further down the list that i would move on before him.

Changes to the coaching FD have nothing to do with the state of the list EO. Not.sure why you would bring that up. We can't bring that many in if we aren't delisting many. After this year's disaster i have no doubt Mahoney and Co. are going to struggle somewhat at the trade table and i don't envy them. We are hardly a destination club at the mo. Even the lowly Saints & Blues appear to have surpassed us on that front. If we get Langdon, Tomlinson and one other B- (or thereabouts) in, had we delisted O-Mac, Jwags and ANB then, if needed and we can't find replacements via trade, we could have topped up with speed / skill via the draft. Also, according to many scribes, we just lost pick 2 as well. We are effectively lower than the lowly GC sons. Beggars can't be choosers EO. Only my opp but as long as we have the likes of the three above on our list, this club will struggle to get beyond the odd random finals appearance (at best). P.S. totally in agreement re my pessimism vs yours! I admire your positive outlook and anyone else's on D'land. All power to you guys if you see things differently. Just calling it as i see things and my trade / draft knowledge is very ordinary indeed.

Yet the complete reverse happened this year R&B, with very little cohesion / understanding as a team as there was clearly not enough time spent on the track by enough players at the same time due to injury etc, nailing whatever it was Goody intended. This trade period was an ideal opportunity to make significant change and clean out a very ordinary list devoid of genuine forward talent, outside speed & finish and over stacked with too many see ball get ball plodding mids. Very few of who can hit the barn side of a door, one of whom is now on the verge of retirement. It doesn"t take seasons of playing together to become a very good team imv. A premiership team yes but we are a mile off that atm. But to make finals you do need the right mix of quality seniors, mature age players with decent experience in the middle, a few quality rookies, very good depth and one very good pre-season with minimal injuries throughout the year (always helps!). Ideal opp to bring in a few more fresh faces with a bit more quality, especially speed and foot skills. The likes of ANB, O-Mac and Jwag aren't the sort of depth that will make a difference on most game days when the injuries hit us at some point. Then there's the huge question mark over AVB. MFC has again missed the boat of opportunity. This was the time to be bold and aggressive and we seem to have sat back on our laurels once more, with the exception of a bit of tinkering between the arcs on the outside assuming Langdon & Tomlinson are in. Neither appear to offer any great change on the speed and finish front so i'm not sure we acheive much at all with those ins, other than a bit of extra depth and hopefully making it harder for some of those we shouldn't have re-signed to break in to the 22.

There is no way of truly knowing either way whether he has or hasn't peaked AF. Whether he's at the MFC or elsewhere, only time will tell. He isn't a turnover king at all AF. He had 21 players ahead of him this season. Does he leave his man behind and the opp score either directly through his opponent or by having a spare up forward when he does turn it over up the field with a few caught out in offensive positions? Seems likely eh. Unfortunately few others down back capable of escaping their opponents much of the time, which probably means they also aren't capable of running in support once he gets on one of his Frostball runs. Is that lack of run / support more to do with a coaching game style (team rules) issue / or more a confidence / belief thing i wonder? Or maybe personnel related...just don't have the leg speed in general? That would mean an adjustment to ensure he finds a target by hand or foot much earlier into his manic runs or a few others need to run in support maybe (or if we don't have them we need to recruit a few in)? Can't be that hard to fix surely.

You have my vote Werridee. Looks much more at home inside the Arc. Haven't seen anything exceptional from him down back (so far) that makes me think he is more suited there.

That ultimately comes back to good coaching and training methods / systems across all lines and excellent coaching at line level also AF surely, with coaches who know their business well and are great at communicating what's required etc. Along with most putting in a full pre-season training as a unit together and ultimately finding some cohesion as a regular 22 (give or take a few changes but nothing like we've seen this season obviously). If he can't carry out what's required and improve accordingly (vs set roles / requirements KPIs) within a reasonable time frame then like any other player he goes back downstairs until the coach / FD consider he is ready for another attempt / trial run. It might take a month or more of adjustments/fine tuning/coaching at Casey. Maybe more. Isn't Frosty's development in this regard as much a test of our FD's skills and abilities as it is of Frosty himself? If we let him go and wipe our hands i think this says more about the entire club than it does about the individual himself. And let's assume Frosty moves on for whatever reasons (and i personally hope he doesn't), what's to say the same issue won't come up once again with another player who shows similar potential but also needs a few minor or more significant alterations?

Not all stats D11. Some are actually utilised by clubs / coaches as performance measures. Mostly ones that we rarely get to see. Intercept marks would be one they would be looking at that is publicly available along with contested, pressure acts, tackles and some form of 1%ers (probably something more advanced than the public option). Coaches / clubs would most likely also have their own player KPIs that they're expecting or hoping a player will achieve which probably alters from game to game depending on match ups / role being asked (both offensively and defensively) i would assume. Some coaches can't stand stats and others might be a little more open. In the end it comes down to the eyes of course. Most clubs have a game day analyst looking at all this anyways and who probably have a bit more of this stuff going to a fro between line coaches and their relative players (defenders / mids / forwards etc) rather than the head coach. But yes i agree KE% is pretty useless in isolation. Champion has a kick rating that we never (or rarely) get to see that measures how well players do under various circumstances such as kicking to a target under pressure (both short kicks/ medium to long kicks etc), kicking to a target on a lead etc. Unfortunately DE% and KE% is all we get publicly. It's just a very rough guide as to how a player's trending IMO and needs to be looked at in terms of only comparing like with like (ie., defenders vs defenders etc. if there is such a thing nowadays given players tend to push into different areas of the ground at times, dragging their opponent up the field or looking for kicks on the wing etc). Just to make your day, here's the kicking efficiency % of all MFC players for 2019 (excluding KK who i missed for some reason) who played two or more games for the year at round 9 vs where they finished at the end of season. Obviously backmen are going to get plenty of cheapies out the back plus relatively easy kick out results etc which makes their numbers look better. Mids under more pressure generally and expected to be lower etc etc...

I would have hoped so D11. We lost the prelim (ie; not a GF which is the ultimate play off obviously) by 10 goals and a number of scribes had our list as primed and ready for a shot at the title pre-season. Champion data had our list ranked No.1 also as you probably know. Did i think we actually would? No. Pre-season i had us placed somewhere between 10th to 14th (or thereabouts). Probably sub-consciously due to all the pre-season interruptis chatter. 2018 was a high level and there were always going to be a few who weren't going to match their 2018 levels for whatever reason but i don't think anyone expected such a mass drop as we've seen from so many this seaaon. And especially not with such extreme variances. 5% to 10% sounds reasonable from some vs 2018 but for so many to drop as much as we see here? Very few would have foreseen that sort of calamity.

Don't get too caught up in the Stretch improvement % EH. Very flakey comparison as i only had two games of data to go on with his 2018 average (ie, barely an average). However, he is ranked no.7 overall in 2019 (9 games a healthy sample), which on the surface you would argue probably worth keeping for run & carry depth on the outside. The problem here is, and it's only my view, he doesn't run & break lines much from what i've witnessed. Quite accurate with disposal though and we don't have too many of those. Does he pull the trigger enough with his kicking beyond short safe kicks and take his opponent on often enough, at least to keep the FD & coach pleased to have him as depth etc? Tackling pressure is up there ranked 10th on the list this season on averages so no issues there, especially given his size. Ranked higher than Salem, Tracc, Jones. Score involvements off a little ranked 17th. Maybe not working hard enough both ways given he is effectively playing a winger type role between the arcs? i50s ranked 17th and r50s 16th. Frost on the other hand...at least worth trying to hang on to if possible. Just as an aside Frosty gets criticised alot for turnovers and even i have concerns. I know on another stat thread here champion data had him ranked poorly due to scores from his turnovers. Ok so he's leaving his man, taking him on and breaking lines. Turns ball over. His man is often free and goals or goals through him. But is this also a reflection of our mids inability to run defensively and help out? Or alternatively an inability of say a Lever or May to cover off due to interrupted seasons? Surprisingly Frosty is ranked a lowly 22nd in the team for average turnovers. Lower is better here so he can't be as bad as we are making out surely. Of all genuine defenders only Jetta (81.7%) and Lewis (77.6%) had a better DE% than Frosty (74.0), equal with O-Mac. Keep in mind that Frosty was also our 3rd best intercept defender (7.4) this season just behind Lever (7.9) & Hore (7.5).

That has to go down as one of the worst extensions ever imv given what we need right now. Keep JWags & O-Mac but lets not try too hard to keep Frosty ?

Agreed but also off it D3. If we stand for nothing at the top how do you think existing and prospective players are going to feel about the club in general and especially about joining it? Conversely if we stand up and fight for ourselves top down that attitude / feel will likely have a strong trickle down effect. That's why you need great people starting from the top down through all levels, including the FD and list. A week / meek / mild club is hardly likely to inspire vs one that stands up for itself and flys the flag when needed.

? That's the spirit! Nice work Beetle And if you believe Timmy & Garry they Sons only got pick 2 as the AFL linked the deal to a long term 4 years contract on both. So the optimists who were somehow hoping we might pick them up anyway in two years.... ummm maybe not. I doubt we would get either anyway given our parlous state atm unless there's a Lazarus like recovery into finals over the next two seasons.

Based on averages WB so the results are all relative regardless of the number of games played or not via injury etc. I also get some might be impacted after coming back from injury or not being able to complete a full pre-season and might take three to four matches to find their AFL fitness / conditioning but if they're on the park and they play the match out we have to assume the FD is pretty confident that they are capable of contributing at a reasonable level. Personally i would not like to lose our quickest player off HB without a direct replacement that can match or better him. We will get easily picked off by the likes of a Cameron, Lynch, Brown and Buddy (if still doing the rounds and fit). Imagine if a few key talls go down and we have to bring in O-Mac to match up on one of the above! Better yet....let's not, just hang on to Frosty!

Whatever i say is only one opinion from an amateur observer WB. Weighted average stats vs all defender peers, which include a significant negative factor for turnovers for all, show he was our best defender for the season. Also well inside our best 22 ranked 11th, up a massive 19 places on his finish last season. Statistically our biggest improver for the year by a country mile..up 26% on 2018. And that, in a year where most where absolutely shizen in comparison. Imagine IF he was playing in a team that was going just "Ok" this season, let alone 2018 levels. Whilst that result was in a year of horribilis performance by many, we would need to see a miraculous turnaround by a stack of players, and a number of ordinary ones, to see him pushed outside or on the cusp of 22 if he maintains this year's output into 2020. And what if he maintains this year's output and reduces the amount of turnovers significantly in 2020? He takes another leap yet again. Of course anythings possible, especially if his performance drops off next season (if he's still with us of course). Just needs to be one KF that is pretty quick on the lead WB. I can only refer back to one of the greatest lead up forwards of recent times in Rooey who stated that out of all defenders he had seen of late, Frosty was the last one he would want to play on due to his closing speed (ie., effective defense on a quick player such as Nick relies very much on athleticism and speed.

If this actually goes down the MFC needs to make a stand and front the AFL.

Him and about half the list Chook!

You don't think he did a good job on arguably the best KF going around in Buddy WB? One of our few wins for the year. Pretty sure he curtailed a few other decent ones also. I don't see anyone else with his closing speed and height down back for us knocking the door down. Hope you're not relying on O-Mac as back up for Frosty like a few others here?

Couldn't agree more SD. This game is completely corrupted and beyond saving.

And to think i only intended to post once!

There is little honour among thieves gents. Don't give a sucker and even break and keep your hand close to your chest. We are all adults and get that Goody is going to say we are interested and that we are making a big play for him. As an adult i also get that like any other FA situation he is fair game and he might stay or be picked up by someone else with a better offer. I don't need to be told that via an interview. I just (personally) dislike the fact Goody is speaking / speculating that "Many other clubs" are getting involved. Obviously yourselves and others don't. All good. Personally i see no upside (for us) in adding that part. The rest of what he said is fine.

1. There is no way of knowing that either way 39. We are all speculating. You may well be correct. 2. Agreed 3. No argument but i doubt we would know fullly every detail/truth as to every single club that is seriously in play for Elliot. Recall the Saints had no idea Ross was signed, sealed and delivered till it all went down and were none the wiser at any point during the season even though discussions must have been well under way at least a few weeks out.

As i said MD i totally get and respect the positive 'very good player / required player' talk and Goody is saying nothing more or less than any other coach, player official etc would say under similar circumstances. I just don't see any upside (for us) in bringing in the 'many other clubs are interested' aspect. I am happy to disagree on this one and fully respect your (and other's) alternate views here.