nutbean

I am a big one for stats if used in conjunction with your eyes - and your eyes ain't telling you lies. (its a bit like - give me 25 Pendlebury disposals over 40 Swan disposals any day of the week)

That's Captain Nutbean to you...I'm going down with this ship...

Giving 110% doesn't necessarily make you a leader.

I live in eternal hope and can be blamed for not folding early enough - it took me until the final year of Col Sylvia to finally wake up ( if only he had a full preseason). I love the Ro Bails and the Rileys of the world - not huge amounts of talent but a willingness to go hard every week. I do despair a little over Watts as has some sublime skills. I just want him to develop some urgency.I haven't jumped ship yet though.

The only one I will give you is Scott and Thomas as there are similar parallels. To be criticised by your coach because you dumb things physically is not a new thing - so Johnson and Robinson would be chastised and think meh. But Scott giving it to Thomas for acting would have been embarrassing for Thomas. It a part of Thomas's game that he wouldn't have wanted his coach to criticise. The other one was when Richo was dropped for poor body language and hissy fits many moons ago. If Roos was to criticise Watts it would be embarrassing because Watts can only be criticised for his application.

I don't think he will be traded but the criticisms of him are no less valid - without necessarily naming ( you can work it out) but if you put Watts talent into all but probably three of the above players you would have an outstanding footballer. I don't think anyone here will deny that he has an abundance of talent - most are just so frustrated in that he will not go nearly hard enough at a contest/chase/tackle. I am necessarily talking about him crashing packs - but even his one on one battles is not up to scratch and there is a guarantee that the slightest physical pressure he will go to ground.

oohhh. talk to the Stkilda supporters about his early years - very Wattesque

Why would you be comparing him to three ruckman ?

I have been going there for over 20 years - seriously overrated back then as it is now (the service is exceptional - the food is very good without being exceptional)

When the place went to the dogs - how was Nathan Jones going ? Pride in performance irrespective of the coach. As a paid professional you do what are paid to do. The board will take care of a coach who they see is not getting cut through. I saw quite a few players who were confused and had little idea of what they were meant to be doing. I saw some players who dropped their heads and that is understandable. However to see a player who looked to me to be actively defiant in the way he was playing sets an appalling example for the balance of the playing list. The Neeld era was a disaster - and he could not motivate the players nor teach them but if you had a few more Nathan Jones running around it would not have been quite the debacle it turned out to be.

I don't care how bad a coach is ( and Neeld's tenure certainly rates right "down" there), there is never a reason for a player to revolt against a coach. Exactly what example does that set for the rest of the playing group. As far as I am concerned - unforgivable. However since I have very little idea on what actually went on during those dark days I wish him all the best in retirement and thank him for pulling on the Demons jumper over 100 times.

I love you Beamer **** (*** played over 100 games for us - means his son (?) will qualify for father/son - I will not bite the hand that one day may feed us) On another note hasn't Warren Dean gone "backwards" since he hung his boots and became General Manager at the Lions.

Funniest thing is even Leppitsch can't believe. ( he is in the press on this)

You just mentioned leftovers. Had you said we don't need to recruit other clubs idiots or NQR's then you don't get an argument from me.

I am not suggesting a win but only once this year have we played two absolute shockers in a row. I think we will respond to last weeks performance.

Cross was a leftover. We just need to be smart in the recruiting. It now comes out that not only did he get into a punch up - he lied to the club and told them injury occurred in a sparring contest.. yeah..right..... The NDH policy does not apply to Robinson as he is so much more than just a DH - I think we might need to install a NFW policy to capture the likes of Robinson.

I have no problem in "St Paul" trying to get the best footballing talent out of a player - I have a problem with bringing in players that are problematic like Robinson. Roos extracted talent out of players like Ted Richards for example - he wasn't a cultural problem. The only risky player I can think of that Roos took on was Barry Hall ? We had many here that wanted to try and get Fevola to our club - I just don't get it. We have enough problems with finding talented footballers that we have to go and find players with attitude problems also ?

I would suggest that coaches are able to see what is lacking in performance and it is further illuminated by statistics. You may think that there is an oversaturation of statistic but if correct interpretation is given to them all it does is highlight what we are seeing. An example is inside 50's. We can all see we don't get the ball into the forward half enough. Stats will tell you that 30 inside 50's won't get the job done.Or if you have 80 inside 50's and kick 6 goals for the match your eyes will tell you that the forwards have been wasteful or you are bombing the ball into opposition backs. Stats may show the Watts got 20 disposals and nicholson got 30 disposals - but coaches would know what to place more value on and they would be looking at that in conjunction with disposal efficiency. If Nicholson got an 80% disposal efficiency you can bet that the stat for metres gained would be minimal as he would be chipping the ball backwards to very safe options. I have no problem with statistics at all - coaches and educated watchers look at a stats and use them as a measuring tool against what they are seeing. Where I have problem is where stats are used without reference to what we are seeing. I have stated the Frawley has taken the most marks for us and is 3rd in the league - what a fantastic achievement...but.. is he having a huge impact on either the scoreboard or the game itself ? I would say he has been handy. What our eyes are telling us is that he is not getting value for the marks he is taking. I will be critical in that he gets a load of marks outside 50 but either he is slow to react or players further forward dont give options - all he does is bomb forward to a pack. So the same goes for recruiting - all stats do is give meat and measuring tools to what the recruiters are seeing.

That was the shank of all shanks. Do you have any idea how hard it is to kick the ball like he did ??? In the aftermath of the game we tried to replicate the Eishold shank and it is near on impossible to kick a ball like that.

What an interesting thread that would make - clone the hands of Howe, the decision making and disposal of Watts, and the desire and heart to impact of Viney/Dawes. Conversely the hands of Dawes, the desire and heart of Watts and the decision making and disposal of Nicholson - ewww.

I won't address each player individually but these sorts of players can be in flag winning side - but you want them to be the 16 17 or 18th player picked. Assuming Bail has reached his ceiling - I have no problem with him on our list - but at the moment he would be in the first 10 players picked each week. What we require is him to be the one of the last 2 or 3 picked. Have a look at Hawthorns GF team last year. I will name 3 players and before I get howled down at how much better these players are than ours - factor in them playing in a far superior team who completely understand and execute a game plan and have confidence in each others abilities to run and deliver exactly as prescribed. Think of how these players would go in our current environment - Puopolo, Sheils, Simpkins. Would a Pderson at Hawthorn be any better or worse than a Stratton ? Our problem is not the players you mentioned - our problem is that we dont have a collection of Hodge, Roughhead, Rioli or Mitchell.

We are actually atrocious when it really counts. We can chip the ball from side to side with precision ( especially in the backline) - that's why our disposal efficiency % looks so good. ( that's another issue - I have no problem with the chipping the ball and switching play but the key with the switch is to do it quickly enough that you open up the other side of the ground. We tend to switch the ball but then hold and allow the opposition to man up over the side we have just switched to. - net gain = zero) But when we bring the ball through the centre we are poor by foot and we are poor by foot going into the forward 50 and we miss far too many easy shots at goal. That is why Jack Watts frustrates me - he will deliver the ball with precision and his decisions on many occasions leads to play opening for us. I love the ball in his hands - Unfortunately with him, you also get Sundays luke warm efforts at getting to contests and applying any sort of pressure. (trying to be semi polite !)

The trouble is we all talk about but there is myriad of footballers (not just at our club) who just can't kick. This is what make Hawthorn stand apart from other clubs. They have quite a few footballer who I consider average but these footballers can all kick which means they get full value for money every time the ball in their hands. Priddis of WCE - although he has slightly improved, I still say the best way to win against the Eagles is give the ball to Priddis 40 times and you can throw Masten in there as well.

I was always confident that Neita would kick the goals from 50-55m out. But from 30m out ? Not so much.

This is where the OP and other posters have merit in regards to stats. I would love to see the disposal efficiency broken down to forward half and back half. What I am seeing is that we rarely cough the ball in defense these days and we are patient in chipping the ball around until we get the right option - this will make our disposal efficiency percentage look very high. If you then pick three more stats - inside 50's , scores for and scoring efficiency and take on board what we are seeing it does paint quite a picture. We are coughing the ball up continually around the centre of ground and just forward of the centre. We don't get the ball into our forward line nearly enough but remarkably, when we do our conversion rate is quite good. Stats in isolation mean little - you need to take them into account with what we are seeing on the ground. We do not have the talent by foot that can slice up teams through the centre of the ground going forward. We have seen very little quick entries into the forward 50 that are really easy and end up with a leading forward being hit lace out. That's because we are lacking in highly skilled midfielders and importantly highly skilled half backs that can deliver the ball precisely and quickly.