nutbean

ahhh..alright then.. The debate has descended into the realms of mind reading. http://www.melbournefc.com.au/video/2014-07-30/roos-on-afl360 - "I think he hasn't made up his mind.. you can generally tell when a player has made up his mind....he is invested in the club ..invested in team meetings and the leadership group" ( Bomber chimed in that he looked invested in the Port game).... so behind closed doors he thinks exactly the opposite ....ok then.. Roos could have said one of many things - he could have gone with " I don't think James has made up his mind - we want him to stay but we respect his decision to delay his discussions" - Roos has said those words almost identically on numerous occasions but he decided to go down the track of how he is invested in meetings and the leadership group - which goes directly to his attitude. Yet you think Roos thinks the exact opposite of what he said ? Again for the record - I think he will go. I can live with the opinion that Roos thinks he will go. But your suggestion that Roos is thinking that we will better off without him due to his attitude and actually wants him to go is based on...hmmm.. what is that based on ?

Again - quoted by the club "Roos said the club was playing out both scenarios for the club’s planning for next year, but he was prepared to wait a little longer for Frawley’s answer". Not quite sure what else you want me to say ? Would you suggest that because there is minimal chance of him staying that all your plans revolve around him going. I hope my club is professional and has contingency plans either way. I think GNF stated that the clubs expectation on Frawley staying was low but you would expect them to be planning for life with and without him. Here's the thing - whilst there may be some truth in players agreeing to move prior to the trade period/contract expiry date - IMO - those would be minimal. Clubs would be planning lots of different scenario's for different players depending on who was available and who may be shaken loose at trade time.

Agreed but you have no interest to ascertain why it is so low ? We are a long way last in the inside 50 statistic. Interestingly our conversion once inside 50 is right up there - we just don't get it in enough.

It may have something to do with lowest inside 50's in the league ? Fairly hard to kick goals from the wing.

Steve - I will retire from this discussion now because in my opinion - we will never agree. I see a footballer with some talent and obvious flaws - you see these flaws and major attitude problems that will affect others in the club - I dont see it. However where you are 100% wrong is "I reckon Roos would be noticing such things and thinking that we'll be better off as a club without Frawley." Roos has been asked incessantly about Frawley. He has constantly "it's James decision and we are comfortable with him taking his time" ( or words to that end). He could have stopped there but he hasn't - he has continually said ( as recently as two days ago) when asked if he is going and i am paraphrasing, " you can tell when a player has disengaged from the club and James was not like that at all." . Read what Roos has consistently said about Frawley - he does NOT want Frawley to go - "While Roos said this was still up to five years away, he said the Demons were very keen for James Frawley to commit to the club in the coming months." You are again putting your spin on things and making up stuff to suit your argument.

This is the only thing I am certain of. Our list managers will absolutely be planning forward for life with or without Frawley.

Not that I disagree with the choice but we would be naive to think that there was no agenda in his appointment and even more naive to not realise what his major theme would be when they appointed him.

I also had a thing for Pauline Hanson ( right up until the time she spoke)

At best , if he does have ability, he has limited ability to display it.

I would love a PP but I just can't see it happening. It is so subjective and for all the arguments you can (rightly) give for us requiring a pick, you can give subjective reasons for not giving a pick. Whilst they were correct in assuming that Roos would make some difference , for the AFL to suggest that there was significant upside in the young talent on the list is nothing more than a guess. The improvement IMO has come mainly from our the introduction of our imports - Tyson, Cross and Vince. Some players have improved but we actually haven't seen significant upside from our young talent. It is flawed to base the giving of a priority on what the AFL think "might" happen.

I can only go on the Statistics posted on here ( always dangerous) but he appears to not get enough of the ball.

Steve - it's not just you I will bite back at. Again - you can debate his worth all you like and whether you want him to stay or not - but I will ask two questions. Continue to underperform ?? no 2 on our goalkicking, no 1 marks for the club overall, no 1 on average marks per game, no 3 on contested marks, no 2 on marks inside 50, no 3 on inside 50's ( means he is working hard as a lead up forward), ranked 7th in dreamteam and 4th in supercoach ( i don't really rate these systems as reflective of a players true worth). Would you possibly like to revise your post ? Is he in AA form ? No. Could he play better ? Yes, Calling him an underperformer ? Poor leadership - please elaborate. Do I think he is great leader ? probably not. Do I think he should be in the LG - probably not. But again we don't really have full insight. Just because a player is not a great leader - doesn't follow that he is a poor leader. I would like to know why you think he is "poor" leader. Please tell me what you think opposition clubs will see in his attitude ? What opposition clubs will see is a player that is a "cleanskin" - doesn't come with baggage like your Heath Shaws, like your Fevola's. He trains, he plays, he doesn't miss too many games through injury. tick. What opposition clubs will see is a player who can is quick and can play against bigs and has had some success against smalls. tick. What opposition clubs will see is a player who can swing both ends of the ground. tick. What opposition clubs will see is a player who is still off his best AA form from years back. Cross. What opposition clubs will see is a player who can turn the ball over, can make dumb decisions and doesn't really hurt oppositions with his foot and hand skills. Cross. And again, won't argue with posters that feel he won't be missed and easily replaced. Maybe yes maybe no. Won't argue with posters that feel we will do better by receiving an early draft pick for him. Maybe yes, maybe no. Won't argue with posters who think he is gone - probably yes, maybe no. But I will take exception with opinions that are coloured because of his stance of not revealing his preferred position until seasons end. Edit - You will also note that Frawley is 3rd in the league for marks. Not too bad when you consider where we are ranked for inside 50's. IMO opinion it also shows that for a player who has taken the 3rd most marks in the league he hasn't had enough impact - means he doesn't do enough with the ball when he marks it.

Irrespective of whether he was up to it Didak did not want to be retired Ben Johnson - retired, Tarrant - retired, Heath Shaw moved on. Only one left is Swan. There is conflicting information as to whether Daisy Thomas was part of the clique. You will notice that I used the words - "Buckley considered problematic" and "perceived influence on others". I chose these words carefully as I have no insight into Collingwood other than what I read in the papers. I am not sure whether it is a beat up or not but all you need to do is google Collingwood ratpack - there is a plethora of articles about them.

Please send me an application form to join this club.

you know exactly where I heard it - Judd's grandmother

I didn't know that happened. Just googled it. I shouldn't find it amusing but the first paragraph reads - A MELBOURNE Football Club player has been ordered not to assault his teenage girlfriend after an early-morning incident last weekend. You have to ordered by a court not to assault your girlfriend ???? really ??????

I have good mail that we will only be receiving mail twice a week . So I think that will make it the pretty average mail.

Says more about us a club than about Sylvia. I always saw talent in him and I ( like many ) were always waiting for the breakout season - if only he had a full preseason. A lot of smarter posters than me jumped off his bandwagon earlier than I did knowing that we could wait another 10 years and he wouldn't do a full preseason or have a breakout year. But he sure was a tease - and I think that is what kept him on our list for 10 years.

I know it ...I know it... I don't mind good intellectual discussion and even if I disagree with opinions that are well reasoned - I can see their point of view - disagree and leave them alone. I just go a bit troppo when I see stuff written that a single player like Frawley will "stifle the development of younger players" and " our list can improve 10 fold without him ". I have no problem with any poster not valuing him as a footballer and thinking he is easily replaceable - But stifling youth development and our list would improve 10 fold without him is just blatant nonsense. We basically improved our list one fold with Sylvia going and Vince coming - one puts in the hard yards week in and out and the other didn't. Further onn Sylvia - I have been thinking about culture killers and I guess for me the ones that I see as problematic are footballers with discipline problems - coming back overweight for PS training or those that skip sessions, drink/(drug ?) problems, late night night clubbing, fighting and that's both on and off the field. Collingwood cleaned out a lot of players that Buckley considered problematic - the ratpack - not for their onfield performances - but their off field behaviours and apparently perceived influence on others. Sylvia's performances for me were made more disappointing because apart from the fact that he would only shine in one out of 8 games, his attitude outside the club made it worse. He had some noted indiscretions and other rumoured indiscretions. In his years with us he never had a full preseason. This in itself cannot be blamed on him but it adds to the total package. ( I tend to be forgiving of players like Nicholson - I unfortunately don't think he has disposal skills to be a regular AFL footballer but he gives his all both on and off the field. I love the Daniel Crosses of the world because he has average talent and has gotten 100% out of himself to be a more than useful footballer. In between you have McKenzie who is limited and works very hard but hasnt reached the heights of a Cross. I would love to have a hybrid Sylvia/McKenzie.)

mmm Jacqui... sweet sweet Jacqui

Just ask Brian Lake and Drew Petrie

I keep replying to you because you keep posting the same stuff that most I talk to don't agree with. So in answer to your question - has he lacked urgency ? half hearted efforts ? Nope - don't agree - I see an improvement in his efforts compared to the previous two years but also see him a fair way off his AA year. He doesn't go at it like a Jones or Dawes but then not many do. Do I see bombs to no-one, poor disposal at times and indecisive/poor decision making ? Sure. You keep banging on about him being in the leadership group - I can see that you definitely wouldn't have in the leadership group - I probably wouldn't either - but you and I don't vote in the leadership group - the players and coaching staff do. There is a good reason for this - there are many components to being a leader and we get to see just a slither - what we perceive on the field. We don't know what he does in the change rooms, on the training track and we really don't know how much direction and voice he is giving on the field because he is not animated on the field like a Hodge is. Interestingly - I talked to a couple of players separately about Cameron Bruce and whilst he was part of poor period of leaders I thought he was a very poor choice to be in our LG. I was forthright in my opinions on his helicopters and some less than full on efforts. I was promptly pulled up and told that he was fantastic with the kids, quiet instruction to the kids on the field, a leader in training and the players really respected him.I still think he was a poor leader in a group of other poor leaders but players thought differently. Again we only see a small part of the leaders in action. Do I compare him favourably to Dawes as leader ? From what I see - no. Would I see getting a pick within the first 4 picksas a win for Frawley - if it is used well - probably. You say that Frawley is not the footballer to take the club forward. We have a whole list that needs to collectively take the club forward. Some will be prominent through force of personality and some will do it through exceptional talent on the field. Some will play just play a role week in and week out. I don't see Frawley having a dominant personality. He had a couple of very good years - one being AA and he is playing his role this year - that's according to our coach. Not sure if he can rise again to be a "talent" or just be another role player. But to compare him to Sylvia is in my opinion insulting. You find the flaws in Frawley and boldly suggest he can't change - I find that arrogance ( or ignorance ) of the highest order - Many on here believed that Pederson - who's efforts last year were very suspect was an absolute delist and the same goes for Dunn a few years back - interestingly that they have changed. Watts is further developing and slowly changing - sorry Chip - you can't change. The club is fresh out of the change gene for you. And to suggest "Frawley will continue to waft which will ultimately have an impact on the development of our younger players" - where do you get this stuff from ??? Now you are insulting Roos and Co and their ability to coach and set standards - to suggest that Frawleys impact is that strong and toxic !!! (Roos end of year address at AGM - JKH, Jimmy T and Salem didn't came on as expected - Damn you Chip Frawley") I repeat - the way he has played the last two seasons is a way off his AA year. I see his flaws - I see his decision making and disposal at times. I think we may do alright if we get a band 1 pick for him. No player is indispensable and there are many players I consider more important to our structure and future than Frawley. I just keep replying to your posts because I find your view of him holding back our club back as amusing as you find my constant replying to you. edit - just re-read the post and obviously your last line didn't register - Let him go, and the chance for further rejuvenation to our list and club is ten-fold. take this comment and the comment about him having an impact on development of the younger players to Roos and PJ and see what sort of reaction you get. Bottom line is - he is just another player on the list with strengths and weaknesses. He will probably leave and we will probably get a high pick for him. If he goes then so be it - if he stays I will watch with interest to see our list devalue 10 fold and our kids fall into a giant hole.

Never miss an opportunity. Seriously.

I hate that place so much. A few wins there would probably change my outlook.

Can you keep us abreast of her progress please ?