Slartibartfast

Bartram has played a practice game but never a representative game.

One of the myths about Daniher is he didn't play the kids. To suggest it was common practice to leave them in the VFL for 3 years is just rot. These players played in their first year under Daniher: Lamb, Simmonds,Green, Wheatley, Whelan, Bruce, Thompson, Armstrong, Miller, Smith, Rivers, Hunter, Ferguson, Sylvia, McLean, Davey, Jones, Bartram, Frawley, Petterd and Garland. I've left out drafted players who had prior AFL experience. Players to miss: Speers (0), Taylor (0), Clarke (1), O'Brien (0), Breese (0), Craig (0), Gill (7), Molan (0), Rogers (2), Bell (45), C Johnson (21), Bate (33), Dunn (23), Newton (10), Buckley (5), Neville (0), Weetra (2). Games in brackets and correct at beginning 2008 other than Weetra. Now the only players drafted not to get a go in their first year of any note are Bell, Bate, Dunn and arguably Newton and Buckley. Bell was injured for much of his first year, Bate, Dunn and Newton were very underage picks so the fact they didn't get a go was not surprising. They are all talls too. All the rest are failures at AFL level. Not one has crafted a career elsewhere. For the record I agree with YM, we have failed to develop our youth and that is a large reason why we don't have a "star" and Daniher may well have been part of that. But to say he left 18 yo to rot in the VFL for 3 years is just utter rot.

Agreed.

Yes, and others mentioned have looked good from time to time. Does that defeat the argument? I think not. And Leuenberger was never availabe to us. The point I'm making is that few if any of the talls taken last year have established themselves and Frawley is no different.

Frawley played mainly back. When Meesen was injured Martin moved from full back to ruck and Frawley played a KPP instead of flank/back pocket. I thought he was a bit disappointing early buy his second half was really excellent. Many forget that he missed the start of last season with a stress fracture in his foot, played a half for Sandy and was then promoted to the seniors. He's effectively played half a season of footy since leaving TAC cup level. Also of the talls taken in last years draft Gumbleton, Hansen, Leuenberger, Thorp, Reid, Frawley, Riewoldt and Sellar have yet to make any real impact. Nathan Brown has played two good games this year and his brother Mitch played some reasonable footy for WC last year. Frawley, like the others listed, is on a steep learning curve and those that are disappointed with his progress should keep this in mind.

Sandy comfortably in the end, not sure of the final scores. Valenti played a good Valenti game. He's not fast Bub. Whelan Sandy's best for mine. Rivers solid. Promising performances from Martin and Maric. Maric a chance for next week. CJ very good. Newton, Meesen, Aussi all very ordinary games. Frawley just went.

Many here argued that players like Ward, Godders, Ferg, Brown and Bizzell had to be delisted. I agreed and still do. It's a pity those that argued this didn't realise that it meant we effectively delisted our depth and that players who are not ready for AFL footy would play if we had even a few injuries. Garland may not be up to it YET. I think he will turn into a fine player but I maybe wrong. It's a big ask for him to be doing his apprenticeship in the seniors in a non competitive team and even worse that supporters don't support.

Many here argued that players like Ward, Godders, Ferg, Brown and Bizzell had to be delisted. I agreed and still do. It's a pity those that argued this didn't realise that it meant we effectively delisted our depth and that players who are not ready for AFL footy would play if we had even a few injuries. Garland may not be up to it YET. I think he will turn into a fine player but I maybe wrong. It's a big ask for him to be doing his apprenticeship in the seniors in a non competitive team and even worse that supporters don't support.

Then you should see if you can find an alternative.....

Spot on Tim. BD if you can't distinguish between the cowardly acts of thuggery (which I hate) and the acts of courage and bravery that occasionally leave a player hurt you're watching the wrong game. Neitz on McCabe was a wonderful example of the latter.

Don't forget Dean Chiron and Jamie Duursma. We had an incredibly tough team who played committed football. As for Neita's hit on McCabe I reckon it is right up there with the best because not only did he fairly take McCabe out of the game he gathered the ball and kicked the goal. It was an inspirational piece of play where the bump was part of the contest for the ball and not like many other bumps where the object is to merely take the opposition out.

I'd like to thank whoever did this. Fantastic stuff. Cheers Fan

I also left at three quarter time. Lets not over rate Martin. He's big, athletic and was towelled by Ben McEvoy. It's why McEvoy was a top 10 pick and Martin was a PSD pick. I like Martin and think he's worth a punt. But he's got a long long way to go.

And a very good one at that!! Much more eloquent than the rather rough around the edges Rhino!!

Don't forget Jack. I wonder if he could be the long termer for Valenti.....

The day Barry downs a few frothies will be a day to remember!

Sorry H, I tried...

I can make it a sticky, but I can't stop the ....

I deleted Redfin's post. Redfin we encourage opinions but they should be supported by solid arguments if they are as negative as yours. Please keep this in mind in future. Thanks Fan

This is an interesting development. http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl...8-19742,00.html

Morton, Grimes, Maric, McNamara, Cleney, Martin, Wonaeamerri, Zomer, Valenti, Meesen and Spencer would have all voted. That's 11 players on the list who have not played any football with him . That's 25% of the votes from people who, frankly, don't know. But they soon will. I'm a Brad Green fan. For all the crap he cops on the websites he is brave, he goes when it's his turn, he does a job every week whether it's his natural game or not, he prepares his body well for the season and during the season and he's a ripping bloke which anyone who has had the pleasure of speaking to him will know. Brad Green will be promoted to the leadership group in due course. I think he has a very good chance of being our next captain. That is further evidenced by the way he has responded to the situation. In short, through no fault of their own, the players got it wrong.

I wondered how long it would be until someone picked up on this point. In my post I said:- "We clearly don’t have the experienced depth this year that we’ve had other years. A similar run of injuries this year will be even more disastrous than last year." I'm not predicting injuries Rogue although I'd not be surprised to see them. We have a lot of injury prone players like Sylvia, Moloney, Mclean and Whelan with Bartram and Rivers still to join full training. I believe our greatest exposure this year is our lack of experienced depth. Gone are Brown, Ward, Godders, Bizzell, TJ, Ferguson and Pickett. Whilst I agree with the cull we had and the necessity to refresh our list these were the players who we would turn to (TJ aside) when injuries hit. They were, in the main, not first picked players but when brought into the team could hold their own. These guys have been replaced with unproven youth. MFC4Life's post on our best 22 shows our lack of depth. I reckon we have about 24 players or thereabouts that I feel confident can play competitive AFL footy today. The rest I reckon have yet to show that or just aren't up to it. We desperately need players like Dunn and Newton to fully establish themselves. We need Buckley, Bode and Johnson C to take the next step. We also need a first year player to be competitive at AFL level in the way Petterd was last year and Bartram was the year before. If we have a run of injuries like last year we'll be in real trouble. Even a few injuries could seriously derail us. But an injury free season that Geelong enjoyed last year and Sydney for a few years would see us comfortably in the 8. Injuries are a critical component of any teams success but for us this year they will have an even greater say.

That explains a lot! <_<

I don't think anyone disagrees we had an injury riddled season, I just think the vast majority completely underestimate the impact injuries have. I don't agree our season was "shot before it started". Our preseason involved a loss to the Hawks in the first NAB cup game where Franklin did his thing (against Warnock from memory) in the last quarter. We were only just beaten. Our team was seriously injury depleted in the warm up games. Of course we lost. Too much has been made of the failed "run and carry". We never had a settled team on the park so we'll never know if this was a success or failure but I do agree it looked terrible early. Bailey is not going to set high expectations. A first year coach has latitude and he's taking it. I would too. On the Parkin issue he endorsed Britten as the next great coach and said that Carlton had a great young list going forward. When the Hawks person described how to unravel Melbourne it's a pity he didn't write it down. They killed us in round one 17.17 to 10.10. In the return bout we won 15.17 to 9.9. They remembered it again in 2005 but forgot it in 2006 losing very badly. Plans are great but you've got to do it. It's a lot easier said than done. I don't know how good we'll be this year. I can't reconcile us finishing outside the eight when I look at the performance of the 2006 team but like many I'm not putting my house on finishing in the top half. I guess I reckon that if we have a good run with injury (like Geelong last year or the Swans for the last 3) we are top 4, but who knows!! I also think with a young team and "fragile" mature players it takes very little to unsettle us.

Couldn't agree more fatty, but the point I was really trying to make was "will the 2008 version be better or worse than the 2006 version". If you conclude that it is "about as good or better" then why the pessisism? Whatever your views this is a terrific discussion. I do however, like Demonophile, believe that injury is the most significant factor in a teams performance.