Slartibartfast

He's played 21 games in a team that has lost 2 for the season (when it didn't matter) and has kept out players like Hudghton and McGuire after being picked up in the rookie draft. He's played in a defense that has one of the best records ever. Yeh, he's a liability. Great call Redleg, from a quick re-read you were the only one to see the possibility and defend it. Ironic isn't it that Hawthorn are now crying out for a defender.

DD thanks for your response, I'd forgotton what it was like to discuss things with you. I'm different to many here; I'm not interested in winning arguments and chest beating but rather finding the right answer. OX failed to discuss things when I tried and I'll just not bother discussing things with him again; shame really, we have lots to learn from the views of others. Ash34 (as he now is) sadly doesn't post because of the shyte he got but he was more insightful about Melbourne than about 95% of posters here. For those that don't know he supports Essendon. I thought OX might have been the same, but no, he's here to chest beat and he'll find many a person willing to provide him with many hours of fun, and that's fine if it's within the house rules. But back to your response. I'll not answer all your points but I will two. You asked how you measure "going to the trough". Well, count the number of PP over the last 8 years would be a start. And what can we learn from Collingwood? Well given that they have outperformed us so dramatically over the last 10 years or so I would have thought "plenty". How do they develop their players so quickly? What parameters do they use when recruiting? What medical practices do they use to keep players on the field? What leadership practices have they based their club on? How have they structured their football department? What personal mentoring have they put in place for players? What are the conditioning programs they have for their players? What do their players do outside football? and on and on... Now please don't list the "misdemeanors" of their players, that would be insulting to all. And I know they have monetary and draw advantages. But if you're so blinkered that you think we can't learn something from the more successful clubs then I'd be surprised. Adelaide is the other club I'd be looking at. GF aside Collingwood have been hugely successful over the last decade without the assistance of draft concessions (beyond Thomas who I don't rate). If you want to play tribal "mines bigger than yours" fine, I'm just not interested. I actually want the answers.

You seem to have missed the point. Thanks

If Watts is a mistake against Hurley what do you make of Reid/Brown v Frawley, Thomas against Ellis and Higgins and Roughead v Frankin. Brown was clearly ahead of Frawley in year one but not many would argue he's ahead of him now. Thomas was ahead of Ellis and Higgins but isn't now, he's a distant 3rd. At the end of year one Roughhead was ahead of Franklin and Kossi ahead of Reiwoldt. Jonathon Brown in his first 3 games did significantly less than Watts but had a body far more prepared for AFL footy and played in a much better team. I really rate Hurley but I'm not upset with Watts. I know enough people in the game who rate him very highly.

Who says he's being "forced to go"?

Watts is a tall, he's also very young. Comparing a young tall to a couple of nuggety mids it silly IMO. Deledio did more than Franklin in 2005. Blease had a broken leg in 2009 and Strauss shoulder and ankle problems. You're probably just responding to type but your arguments don't really carry water IMO.

Nor have most of the posts in response. FHS DD, do you find one Collingwood supporter argueing a case for his club to be so threatening? In case you haven't noticed Collngwood have had one year where they have "gone to the trough"(2005). Since we were in our last GF they have been in two GF's and two Preliminary finals (with one still live) and a semi final. They've done it on the back of terrible recruiting in the early 2000's and they are getting fantastic results from some excellent mature players and a group of promising young kids. If you think we've nothing to learn from them then your very blinkered. OX is not here to support our view and I think it's healthy to have someone from outside challenge us. If you don't like it don't read it and just go along with the group think that is the very essence of club footy forums.

I wonder if they have seen him play live! <_<

There is much in what you say but the point I think you're missing is the success of teams depends on their experienced elite and Melbourne don't have any at the moment. Davis, Didak, Pendlebury and Swan make up a fantastic midfield and are all dangerous with three of the four able to kick goals as well. Maxwell is very very good and I a huge fan of O'Brien and Shaw. Your recruiting last year was exceptional and Sidebottom and Beams will be very good for you but seem to lack the explosive abilities of your elite. Our top end players are plain vanilla. Our hope rests with our youth where we have a number of players who may become very good. Only time will tell. Jurrah, Watts, Blease, Scully, Garland and Morton all show significant potential. If none of these players become elite our rebuild will fail to produce a flag, it's just as simple as that. Until Bailey and Connolly came we had terrible player development. Daniher had a mature squad and development was seen as a low priority. Bailey and Connolly have a completely different approach which I hope can emulate the Collingwood success because without doubt your team is one that gets the maximium out of itself. I was at the game Saturday and it was a fantastic effort by Collingwood against a very good team. Interestingly Collingwood and Adelaide are IMO the two benchmarks of the competition for the way they are drilled and prepared. My concern for Collingwood is where you get your elite players. Historically elite players come from early picks and as of this draft we will have 14 top 20 players on our list. Who do you see as your potential elite? Reid has been disappointing, Brown looks solid rather than elite, Pendlebury will be elite for a long time but Thomas a little disappointing. Your exceptional overall performance has denied you access to elite talent and it will again this year. With compromised drafts for the next three years no club is going to be able to stockpile low picks (other than GC and GWS obviously) which will make it really hard for you. It's going to be interesting to see how it unfolds.

I hope you've seen him live otherwise your opinion doesn't count. And I hope it's more than once because a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Wrong. Opposition supporters are welcome to post here so long as they don't troll. IMO comparing drafting performances is quite relevant and is not trolling. If you don't like the input then don't read it. I've deleted your post and consider it a first and final warning. If you are upset about something an opposition supporter says PM a mod, don't take the law into your own hands or you'll be denied access to the site. That applies to everyone. Thanks Fan

Well I was there and I thought it one of the great pieces of theatre I'd attended. Football is a great spectacle and last nights game just about had it all. A fantastic mixture of pressure and skill, the comeback, the counter comeback and then the drama. For genuine footy lovers it was a game for the ages. What did surprise me was the crowd. Firstly it was only 62,000 and at least one third were Crows supporters, and they were vocal. The crowd did lift Collingwood in the last but the Crows had a fair bit of support. As for Collingwood supporters. They are no different from any other club. The worst behaved and ugliest supporters I've ever seen was a number of years ago in Adelaide sitting in front of the Melbourne Cheers Squad. They were an absolute disgrace.

Great read Jack, thanks.

Joeboy thanks for your efforts during the year, your comments create a lot of discussion and you're on a hiding to nothing. I think we found out when you were away that the three word analysis is not easy to do. Well done and I hope you're up for it again next year. BTW I reckon you finished on a high!

Nice one. B)

More to the point is that this thread is to "farewell" these players, not to debate their contribution to the club. There have been countless opportunities to comment on these players and there is the opportunity to discuss it in future. So rather than turn this thread into a debate about merits lets just recognize the contributions of these players here and keep other discussion for elsewhere. Hope that helps clarify things. In light of this post Enforcer you may wish to edit some of your posts on this thread. Thanks

Let me make this pretty clear. If there is a thread in recognition of a players retirement then those that want to should post thanks and good wishes. If you don't share those feelings DONT POST. Abusive and tasteless posts will not be tolerated. Any poster who ignores this warning faces a one year ban. Pretty simple really. Thanks Fan

I agree with what you've said but be cautious. I remember one morning before the game teeing off on TJ for his total lack of application and good footy. That afternoon he played a blinder against the Saints and we won a game that was not on the radar for us. TJ went on to win a Bluey (a year or so later I think) but ultimately the original assessment was right. We were blessed to get out of that one!! Sylvia reminds me of TJ in his football journey. Enormous talent largely unrealized, fantastic to watch when he's "up" and after a long time in football he suddenly has a epiphany. Let's hope Colin really does make something of his career. I think he's got a chance because the infrastructure around him at the club is much better than TJ ever had. All power to YM for his support (although I suspect much of it was just to annoy other posters) but if Col decides to walk out on MFC because he was forced to play for Casey yesterday then he's the flakey character of TJ and not a person strong enough to be a consistent AFL footballer.

See what I mean??

Don't get so defensive, I've not "turned" anything. I was merely interested in your opinion and wanted to know if you thought the club was being run the way YOU wanted it, whether you thought we were doing everything we could to win a flag and if not, what. And I'm not talking "minutiae" here but strategies, principles etc. Having not read the thread fully you may have already addressed that. If so just let me know and I'll go hunting through the 200+ replies for the answer. If you haven't got the time or inclination to answer that fine. I think it's an interesting thread and has clearly got many thinking about the club and the reasons they support it. That is a good thing. But I've been down this road often and I'm totally accepting that the club is made up of a diverse membership and supporter base who's reasons for supporting us vary. And I reckon that we are the same as all other AFL supporter groups with the same diversity, just with lesser numbers which perhaps camouflage our likeness. BTW the reason I've not read the whole thread is that much is just semantics and I've no doubt we all want to see the MFC win a flag and we've all got a very high "want" factor.

Hannibal do you think the current MFC Board and management has a sole objective of winning a flag? If not, what do you think it is? I'm asking in a practical sense, not a theoretical sense.

I disagree. Geelong have had many father son's which have been a huge free kick. Ablett and Scarlett are two. Crows, Power, Swans and Lions have had assistance outside the normal draft. Bombers and Kanga's have done well on this point.

I've not read the whole thread but it seems to me that a lot of this is semantics. Question 1. Does anyone here desperately want MFC to win a flag and believe that every decision made should enhance that (on the proviso that all things we do are legal)? Answer. yes And I think that is the essence of Hannabals question. Question 2. Do people think that the club provides other benefits outside winning a flag? Answer: Yes And here is the rub. Question 3: If you knew MFC had no chance of winning a flag would you still support us and what would your football involvement/interest be? Answer: the debate we are having. My answer is that I would still follow footy as I love the sport but the proposition would be quite different and not nearly as important to me. It would be an interest rather than a passion.

I hate to get pedantic here but it was five and a half wins. Five wins qualified you for a PP until 2006 when it was reduced to 4 wins and you had to qualify two years in a row to get a first round PP.

Bob probably felt like that when you used a quote of his for your "sole priority" thread. You reap what you sow.