ArtificialWisdom

Yeah ik the feeling but while some stats lie (DE for one) I think ones like i50 efficency doesnt. If we are scoring nearly 70% of the time he kicks it in he is either hitting targets or putting it in dangerous spots. Both of which i am happy with. I know! id love to have full access to everything champion data has, i could waste hours looking at the stuff. It bothers me they only give us the less important stats... i couldnt care less if a player had 30 touches if they didnt have any score involvements or effective i50s. We just dont get to see all that aside from these little articles. Basketball has +/- score for when a player is on the court, i would like to see that sort of thing for clearances, how do we do when Viney is in the centre vs when he is resting, as with Gawn, Jones, Bernie. Love to know scoring efficency to opponent after a 1 on 1 contest. so if Jetta is in a 1 on 1 how likely is it they will score directly after it (pretty low i would think), same with the likes of TMac, OMac, Frosy etc. Could either support or kill some of those McMyths that people have going.

He is widely considered in the top 2 of the comp... how can you be any higher rated?? he hasnt done it long enough to be considered a legend... Wait another 40 years and imagine having that beard imortalised outside the MCG! Ahead of myself? how do you mean? FWIW the new article on the "Numbers that matter" article on the AFL site has 3 player ratings averages from each club for this year alone (among other stats). Gawn is 9th AFL wide with 16.8/game, Viney is 24th with 14.8/game and TMac is 59th with 13.4 who is also 5th in the comp with 7.8 spoils per game. Some very interesting stats in that artticle. Tommy bugg has our highest inside 50 efficency at 67%, need it in his hand going forward more often! CP5 is up there with 6.6/game scoring involvements and assists 1.4/game for a young kid thats super impressive, when he gets it things happen.

I tend to think in grades, A+ being the elite. I think a premiership side needs roughly the following 5 A+: Preferably 1 defender, 1 foward and 3 mids 10 A graders: all over the ground Mix of B+ and B players filling the rest of the 22-28 Right now I would say we have a few A graders and a mountain of B/B+. The guys bold I believe can step up a grade or more in time. (each section is in no real order and I have skipped the guys we dont see in the seniors) A+ Gawn - He stands within a step of Goldy as the Comps number 1 ruckman. Fear the beard!! A Viney - Very, very close on numbers he will prob be A+ this time next year Bernie - Not going to get better but is the type we need Jones - Always a worrior but is no superstar Jetta - Freakish turn around, wont get any better but we dont need him to, just needs to stay consistant B+ Tyson - Closest to A he has the talent. A grade and if he keeps his first half 2016 form TMac - Just the mistakes stop him from being a star defender, has the ability needs to lift Garlett - Poor form recently but we have already gotten our moneys worth (which was next to free) Watts - Made the improvement we desperatly needed, just 1 more step to be an A grader Oliver - Has so much and so young, could be a star, but alot of strings to be added for him to become A+, A grade will be enough, similar to tyson for me. Brayshaw - Hard at it. skilled and a gun on both sides Im a sucker for ambidextrous player could one day be A, maybe A+ Hogan - Young and inconsistant, we all know he has what it takes to be the Nr 1 man. Any less than A+ would be a dissapointment, so much pressure, poor kid. CP5 - Has everything, will be A grader, question is will he be A+? Lumumba - Past his best but servicable for the next couple of years while kids develop B Vanders - Improve his finishing and he will be B+ easy knocking on the door for A Kent - Teases talent and speed. should be an A grader but needs consistancy Hunt - Lightning quick and very raw, but i love what he brings, A grader? possible, but a solid B+ would probably be enough. Wagner - B+ no more i think, but we need them. B+ with skill and determination is exactly the players you want. Harmes - Has class (something we dont have much of), hardness and skill, could be an A grader with time, but i think B+ is more likely watch this space. Stretch - Shown glimpses of A grade talent, now we wait to see what comes over the next 3 years. We are desperate for runners Salem - Needs to find the ball more and to get the body right. Has the A grade skill but idk if its A grade numbers, give him time Kennedy - Hard at it, Does the Job, good player but never going to be a super star Bugg - same as Kennedy, does job and thats enough. Dawes, Pederson - Role players M Jones - Stepped up into a solid role we needed before injury. I think deserves another shot but just a B grader Trengrove - tough case, all the odds against him but has tallent to be B+ C Frost - little more than an Athlete, but tries hard, could be a B grade defender but no more OMac - Skinny little ball of skill. few years off but i see huge upside B+ or higher ANB - Needs to be more than just an accumulator then he will step up. Unlikely to be an A grader though Michie, Newton - Good VFL players, depth So I could see 2 elite by this time next year. We should have Hogan that will be pushing soon after and Oliver, CP5 and Brayshaw are all maybes. Too early to be sure. We still need more of the next level to be the elite side we want to be, but we have all the side pieces of the proverbial puzzle, now we need to fill the rest in. Now I need to run for cover because some will clearly have very different views on some of these haha

That will happen when the premiership window opens. I would say we are looking at the end of 2018 when that truely becomes a posibility. For the time being we have to lock in our kids with top tier potential and pick up some middle/middle and a half type tier players. Not quite top tier but good enough to improve the team. Then just get that 1 superstar (or have a kid develop into them) and it will all be in place to finaly make that last push to the top. As for the question 'where are we heading?' We are heading on a long road to a Grand Final, be we have a long way and a few gut wrenching speed bumps to go through before we get there. One day!

Ok so 2 things, Im assuming your first statement is more directed at all of the people in this thread in general not just me but as it ws quoting me id like to point out its a lazy argument to suggest I simply post that for attention. Jack's story is facinating and interesting to talk about, and im trying to do it with an objective look and not let emotion too much cloud my judgement. Secondly you're 100% right it is a testament to him and I have no doubt he will continue to work hard to improve. I have nothing against him but if you want to talk data you come back and tell me how many players have had 2 year long injuries especially ones in their feet and ended up having super successfull careers. There was a time when they were just rehabing him just to be able to walk properly for the rest of his life. People get cruelled by injury, its an unfortunate reality of sport. I want to be proven wrong so badly, I'd love nothing more to stand up and applaude as he walks to the podium collecting a premiership medal. But life doesnt always have such fairy tales. I have not written him off completely by any means but I have doubts, which I think deep down you would have some too.

The reality is TMac never takes the first or simple option. Someone needs to put their arm around him and say take the first option, no slow motion side steps, no risky switches just keep it simple. Has all the ability but needs to understand what he can do. He is so worried about turnovers that he holds the ball too long waiting for ideal option then trys to hit that option under pressure, He needs to trust his teammates to win the next contest and just give the first option every time. Its not a complicated problem. Some games he does it then others he just seems to forget. I think it is time to leave the "taking the game on" to Wagner, Hunt, Bernie and when he is back Salem. They have the skills/attributes to back it up. We need a team that takes the game on that doesnt mean that all 22 players need to close there eyes and run into trouble. Some need to be able to just play to their ability. He cops alot but OMac is doing that very well, first option, simple kicks. He is showing more footy smarts than his brother right now.

So? Tmac is easily the best aerobic athlete at the club and a fair chunk of DL wants to trade him at years end! (which is another delusional idea but thats for another time). The modern game is about burst speed something that Jack doesn't have. You dont need to run 100m in a sprint very often just 20/30m. Most slow players like Tyson, Jetta, Mitchell and Bartell can put the after burners on just enough to keep up to make a contest even if they get to the ball second. My problem is that Trenners just cant, its not from a lack of effort he just isnt physically capable. I'm thinking of an instance in the hawthorn game first qtr. He was side but side with his man they both sprinted 20m to get to the ball after a watts skyball out of congestion and in that short run trenners was already 8 or 9m behind and unable to impact. That kind of pace is what he has lacked even before his injury which now would have diminished even further. He will likely never get back to his fastest pace which was already very slow... His skills and Aerobic capacity are unquestioned, but if he cant find a way to get a little more burst speed he wont make it. Yes he deserves a full pre-season and yes there is a spot for him on our list next year, but I have really big doubts on if he will ever make it. He is a top bloke, a fantastic clubman, and could be one of footy's greatest stories but flags are not won on sentimentality. That all being said I also thought he wouldn't ever play again. He proved me wrong once, hopefully he can prove me wrong again.

I cant understand this thought. Many here seem to share it but i thought that Sydney's talls were all dangerous if we had matched up with smalls we would have been pushed aside even more than we were already.

He is improving every week and still he cops it. One day he will hold a big key forward goalless, and people will still say he isnt up to it.

He knows of football

I don't like the suggestion that I think domestic violence is ok. Because thats not what I mean. What they said is wrong and no doubt it shouldn't have be said. But it was not said suggesting domestic violence is ok. It was said as a critisism of her journalism. Thats why i feel like they are being hung out to dry a little unfairly. I dont support what they said, i dont like some of them in general but that doesnt mean they should cop all the heat for a social issue. That I can 100% agree with. He needs to appologise but people saying he should lose his job(s) thats a bit harsh i think

Yeah that was a blunt and uncalled for remark. But i just think Frawleys apology was right. It was insensitive but it was not meant to support violence. I say that sort of thing as banter among my friends too and they do to me, water off a ducks back for us because we dont mean anything by it. I dont think they meant anything by it either. Actions speak louder than words for me and all of them do anything to support non-violence causes, which i think should be what rings through when it comes to these kinds of things. But sure we can crucify public figures for their words, I challenge you to spend that long in the public view and not slip up once in a while. Sums it up for me

Same could have been said about Barrett and nobody would have blinked. I think it is much ado about nothing, but they should appologise if it makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy inside

Tyson is no speedster but he is fast enough to compete, he gets caught because he is just a little slow to move the ball on. I think that is because he doesnt want to turn it over. When I said slow in the head I meant he spends too long thinking about where to kick/hand it off to. I agree he is a smart footballer. So far this year he has been getting better and better. I dont think it is a witch hunt. He has not been bad. But i think we are seeing the conserns that many of us had even before he got back in the side. He has upside but needs to be more damaging with the ball in hand before he outweighs his negatives. If he is getting in space and having alot of scoring involvements, high meters gained and some inside 50s then he is in the side. Because thats the player we need. If he is in and under getting handballs out im sorry but we have that type player by the truckload and his weaknesses will push him out of the side.

He can take 5m long smooth strides all he wants, doesnt change the fact that most AFL wingman can run 30m in the time he runs 15. He will be at the club next year i don't think thats in doubt, but i think he will have a grimes type year. Good games in the 2's without getting in the senior side.

I think we played the right number of talls, the only one that i thought really struggled was Maxy and he has to be picked for obvious reasons. We matched up ok with them across the ground height wise we needed the talls at each end to make a contest, they did that at times, would have liked them to play 1 on 1 in the forwardline though to make that easier. Thats a gameplan problem more than a selection one.

Different kind of slow. Tyson's slow is in the head and can be fixed. Trenners slow is in the legs.. that is near impossible to fix. A spot next year? 100% yes they wouldnt cut him now, but he has alot of work to do to earn a spot in the best 22. his actions and effort have been good without doubt! but the consern comes in what he simple cant improve and that is that he is slower than a turtle on sleeping pills. I said in another thread that if he can play for the cheap ones out the back like a Sam Mitchell he has a chance but right now he isnt playing like that.

I have that consern too, but right now i think Jones is the better option. Given what Wagner and Hunt have shown as rebounders maybe Salem could move up to a wing next year? Vince is doing a good job as the sweeper when he isnt getting himself supended. Maybe get a wingman in the draft 2nd/3rd rounder pick a kid who can run for days with reasonable disposal. I like JKH on the wing but he just cant get his body right at the moment. We just seem to be playing with 1 wingman and an extra man inside, which means we get killed on the outer if we dont win the clearance. I agree we shouldnt be gifting games but based on his last month i dont think they are gifts, he is improving week to week so dropping him would be harsh. I agree bringing him in to begin with was questionable but now he is in I dont think he should come out. If you wanna reward Grimes bring him in for Trenners maybe for the wing role discussed above?

Oscar has improved nearly every week, needs to stay in FWIW I disagree on wagners decision making, but that point aside, you want to bring Grimes in as a replacement for that? have you not watched Grimes play before? his decision making and diposal very frequently lets him down. Alot of people get off for what vince did but given his record already this year they might make a point to give him a week. Mind boggling I would give him an extended run at Casey similar to what they did with CP5 make him absolutely smash the door in. He is capable and I want him up and fiering when he comes in.

I watched viney chase Rohan and come within an inch of catching him, thats not easy, Rohan is pretty quick. Trengrove has looked very slow every week.. He will be fine when we are in control of the footy like last week but is a liability when we cant get a hand on it, too slow to chase and cant win a loose ball because he gets beaten to it. He need to play like Sam Mitchell with the cheap ones out the back and pinpoint passing but I just dont think he can. I dont think we can afford to carry him right now. Dont completely give up on him yet, but hope is fading of him being the best 22 player people wanted. Brayshaw, Harmes, Salem all have bigger futures, and thats just as a start... 100% Agree on M Jones, needs to come in was good before injury and is really pushing to earn more time on the list, in a midfield that hopefully will become very challenging to break into. I think Stretch will be good after the bye but agree he has stuggled last few weeks. I just like the idea of having Stretch and Jones on each wing though, they both are great runners who can spread well. Jones might be maligned by many but he provides better spread than anyone on the team he is just willing to run and run and run.

The late mark against Collingwood was big for his confidence stood up ready to take the hit and copped nothing and got rewarded with a mark and goal. Small wins like that can help him push to go harder in the future. He tried everything to keep us in the game, but was one of only a handfull I would say were good.

The slow realisation coming to everyone on DL that Trenners is too slow?? I mean seriously did nobody see this coming? He was god awfull slow before his major foot injury and now people expected him to be faster? the best of players lose pace after foot/leg injuries but people here expected him to gain pace! I love the bloke he has an amazing story but he was never a likely chance to make it... M Jones for Trenners all others will be fresh after the weeks rest. Stretch looked a bit out of it the last couple but the week off might help with that. Give him another run then maybe Grimes can get his chance on that wing. Harmes and Garlett might be nice to help slow Adelaide down because they kill the best teams on the rebound but I wouldnt change all that much.

People suggesting that Grimes and co. should have played... do any of you actually think that would have changed the result other than maybe giving up 1 less goal?? Sydney is a top 2 team and arguably the best side going round. I doubt Grimes, Michie, Newton, ANB or anyone else playing in the 2's would have made much of a difference.

Not bad, maybe add in the Melbourne membership form, we could end up with 50000+ members by round 5.

Im thinking about setting up a popup stall out the front,selling microwaves at the start of next year, make me a killing