21 minutes ago, monoccular said:

Drafting has been great: trading has been pretty awful TBH (since May Lever)

Langdon says hi. But agree. 

On 15/07/2024 at 20:19, DubDee said:

he hasn’t earned a spot yet due to his VFL form

He was recruited I think mostly as a Fwd that can ruck. he is not a Number 1 ruck

The club think it’s better to utilise existing talks that offer other things at the moment 

These abstract decisions from the Club are getting more than annoying - Fullarton should be played in the forward line to release Fritta to the game he plays best and then pick up a few scores himself, in the process. The Melk can help him with this, if SG cannot.

How can Fullarton be anything when he is often selected as an emergency. Lets make him a CHF and Jefferson FF for Casey next two weeks. Then promote one or both if successful. B.Brown can play upfield. Schache remains in defence.

Why didn't we pick a young mid in the mid season draft ? Is Taylor's magic gone.  Chandler or Fritsch should get dropped someone has to pay the penalty for poor performance. Mac should go forward. Petty to be dropped and replaced by Hore. 

On 22/07/2024 at 16:20, layzie said:

Ouch. Backed the wrong horse there.

Haha yep. Kinda glad tho I didn’t really look at his hit put stats. They’ve been terrible 

On 22/07/2024 at 21:35, COOLX said:

How can Fullarton be anything when he is often selected as an emergency. Lets make him a CHF and Jefferson FF for Casey next two weeks. Then promote one or both if successful. B.Brown can play upfield. Schache remains in defence.

Why didn't we pick a young mid in the mid season draft ? Is Taylor's magic gone.  Chandler or Fritsch should get dropped someone has to pay the penalty for poor performance. Mac should go forward. Petty to be dropped and replaced by Hore. 

We did we picked Windsor.

taylor didn’t expect brayshaw to be gone.

 

fullarton starts forward every game for Casey and rotates with Verrall. He’s no good

Fullarton was not recruited as a ruckman, but as a forward who could pinch hit in the ruck.  He hasn’t established himself this year, but lets see what another off season could offer.

I'm reminded of a regular lament of Carlton-supporting family members. Their perspective on why the club continued to stall for perhaps five years after it should have been solidly competitive was that the club at every level was 'hoping' for the right result. 'We hope McKay will kick straight today, because then we win', 'We hope all our stars will get a clean preseason together, because then we'll dominate, and of particular relevance here; 'We hope that the mass of second-hand players we've recruited will give us quality depth'.

In our recent trade recruiting I'm seeing a lot of 'We hope this player will suddenly turn their career around'.

We hope Schache can provide a physical presence for the first time in his career.

We hope Billings will return to the form he briefly showed for two seasons five years ago.

We hope Grundy and/or Gawn will be able to transform their game style to accommodate a second top-end ruck.

We hope McAdam will go injury free, regain fitness and hopefully provide an undersized marking target which will hopefully mitigate our shortage of key forwards.

We Hope Fullarton will discover a delayed-onset maturity and instinct to compete and use his 200cm effectively.

It is very different from the known quantity expectations of May, Lever, Hibberd, Langdon, Melksham, Brown and even the less dramatic cases of Hunter, Tomlinson and Garlett. All of these players were traded for with the expectations of 'they will be who they are, and we will fit them into our system and that will get the result we want.' It doesn't mean they all worked, but every trade was a realistic fit for a need.

3 hours ago, Tracca said:

We did we picked Windsor.

taylor didn’t expect brayshaw to be gone.

 

fullarton starts forward every game for Casey and rotates with Verrall. He’s no good

This has not been the case recently. Fullarton has been starting in ruck for 20+ minutes then Verrall gets 5min at the end of the quarter. They’re obviously trying to see if Fullarton can do the role with more exposure, but all it’s doing is stuffing up Verrall’s development and the clearances.

7 hours ago, DiscoStu17 said:

This has not been the case recently. Fullarton has been starting in ruck for 20+ minutes then Verrall gets 5min at the end of the quarter. They’re obviously trying to see if Fullarton can do the role with more exposure, but all it’s doing is stuffing up Verrall’s development and the clearances.

I agree, not sure Verrall will come on as an around the ground ruckman at all but his tap outs have been relatively good. Hopefully he can develop his work around the ground. 

 

IMO I think they have tried with Fullarton but it simply hasnt worked. as you mentioned

16 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

I'm reminded of a regular lament of Carlton-supporting family members. Their perspective on why the club continued to stall for perhaps five years after it should have been solidly competitive was that the club at every level was 'hoping' for the right result. 'We hope McKay will kick straight today, because then we win', 'We hope all our stars will get a clean preseason together, because then we'll dominate, and of particular relevance here; 'We hope that the mass of second-hand players we've recruited will give us quality depth'.

In our recent trade recruiting I'm seeing a lot of 'We hope this player will suddenly turn their career around'.

We hope Schache can provide a physical presence for the first time in his career.

We hope Billings will return to the form he briefly showed for two seasons five years ago.

We hope Grundy and/or Gawn will be able to transform their game style to accommodate a second top-end ruck.

We hope McAdam will go injury free, regain fitness and hopefully provide an undersized marking target which will hopefully mitigate our shortage of key forwards.

We Hope Fullarton will discover a delayed-onset maturity and instinct to compete and use his 200cm effectively.

It is very different from the known quantity expectations of May, Lever, Hibberd, Langdon, Melksham, Brown and even the less dramatic cases of Hunter, Tomlinson and Garlett. All of these players were traded for with the expectations of 'they will be who they are, and we will fit them into our system and that will get the result we want.' It doesn't mean they all worked, but every trade was a realistic fit for a need.

Feel like theres a bit of hindsight analysis going on here.

Brown we were hopeful his knee would come good.

Melksham was a high draft pick who hadn't really established a position on essendons line up.

Garlett was one of lesser effective small forwards in carltons line up that we hoped would shine as a sole small forward. He also came with question marks about his attitude. 

All trades usually come with some sort of question unless you pay top dollar for them e.g. may and lever. 

The other players you listed clearly fill a needs based approach although haven't really worked out. 

We are over analysing cheap moneyball trades that gave us some depth and allowed us to free up cash to retain our stars ... its more we failed to attract any players on out list that we we could class as being in our top 10 or 12 players which hurts ... but we didn't completely miss out as we kept picks that got Windsor and Kolt but they will unfortunately take time ... losing Jackson has left a hole

On 22/07/2024 at 14:35, COOLX said:

How can Fullarton be anything when he is often selected as an emergency. Lets make him a CHF and Jefferson FF for Casey next two weeks. Then promote one or both if successful. B.Brown can play upfield. Schache remains in defence.

Why didn't we pick a young mid in the mid season draft ? Is Taylor's magic gone.  Chandler or Fritsch should get dropped someone has to pay the penalty for poor performance. Mac should go forward. Petty to be dropped and replaced by Hore. 

I agree with most of what you have to say. Fullerton ruck, resting forward but not crowding MJ.

NI where BBB or Schach play. They're gorn season's end so it matters not.  We know Tmac is very good back. So is Petty. Tmac goes well forward Petty doesn't. Do we have to spell it out for the FD?

BTW James Cooke was shafted when Casey recruited Fevola. The latter telling any player who came inside the 50m to FO. MJ could use another tall, but one only. And he needs to play FF.

End of sermon.

4 hours ago, Demons1858 said:

We are over analysing cheap moneyball trades that gave us some depth and allowed us to free up cash to retain our stars ... its more we failed to attract any players on out list that we we could class as being in our top 10 or 12 players which hurts ... but we didn't completely miss out as we kept picks that got Windsor and Kolt but they will unfortunately take time ... losing Jackson has left a hole

Interesting context..

In my view , in that analogy, is we traded to keep the business solvent but in doing so in that manner have contributed nothing to developing it. At best we tread water....whilst others improve.  Imho...exactly what has occurred.

Edited July 24, 2024Jul 24 by beelzebub

7 hours ago, Deefiant said:

Feel like theres a bit of hindsight analysis going on here.

Brown we were hopeful his knee would come good.

Melksham was a high draft pick who hadn't really established a position on essendons line up.

Garlett was one of lesser effective small forwards in carltons line up that we hoped would shine as a sole small forward. He also came with question marks about his attitude. 

All trades usually come with some sort of question unless you pay top dollar for them e.g. may and lever. 

The other players you listed clearly fill a needs based approach although haven't really worked out. 

Fair points but I think the argument still holds.

Brown was expected to be the player he was, injury and all. He only played half the season in his first (and premiership) year with us and when he did play with us his role was managed. I guess I'd describe it as the club being willing to take on some risk, rather than thinking 'We hope this will all change for the better'.

Garlett at Melbourne delivered exactly what he delivered at Carlton. We got him ridonkulusly cheap because he was on the outer in his final season at Carlton for a variety of reasons.

Melksham has always been underrated. I was still friends with Essendon supporters back when he was a Bomber and it really was amusing the way he became the whipping boy for everything that was actually wrong with the whole team. I'd say he and Hibberd were both recruited for what they already were, so that our team actually had something resembling an AFL-level best 22, without any fantasies.

In contrast, I feel like we were imagining that Fullarton (and Shache) would be able to provide a contested target / ruck back up for no more reason than they were tall, that Billings would find form that he simply hadn't for about four seasons and only ever did find in occasional bursts at the best of times, and that McAdam would not only overcome his injury struggles (fair enough - see Brown) but also fill a new role as a marking target just because he has been able to take some good contested marks when the circumstances fit - he wasn't lining up on Weitering or Andrews each week, that's for sure.

Anyway, I feel like I should finish up by saying that my opinion here isn't as harsh as it might sound. There's a lot of screaming and hyperbole and 'anti-fan' energy around here lately which I don't want to be a part of.

Crucially, back in the 'pre-premiership' time, our list had so many flaws that just about any competent AFL-level player could find a role in the team. Now it is much more difficult and any player we bring in has to fit into the precise gaps, otherwise they'll get jammed up Grundy style. Finding a capable forward-who-can-ruck, or a ruck who is ready to cover at AFL level but also doesn't mind churning at VFL level, is probably the hardest task in football recruiting, especially when we don't have vast buckets of cash to throw around.

I had a relative who played  defence in the reserves for a EPL club many year's ago. His background was soccer. Many times the footy would go thru his legs and often resulted in a goal for the opposition. Another player who never played footy also got a match , this person was out of his league. Other players kicked to their mates avoiding the above mentioned players. Often these so called mates who mis kick the ball. Smashings were a regular occurrence. In the second year second last game the boy who played soccer kick 9 goal 6 behinds. Then is promoted to the senior and kicks 3 goals 4 behinds . Ended up getting 2 votes for the umpire. One of the goals was from 70 metres out. The reason why the boy (22 years) was that his father knew he could do better and suggested to him that he asks the coach if he could play ruck at 188cms that was o.k for reserves. What I am saying the EPL club really didn't care about the reserves and I wonder if that is the case with Casey ? Do player after trying give up because there is no light at the end of the table ?. We have delisted many players in the past will any development. The believe that we are not a destination club for obvious reasons.That is why we have only one flag in 57 years. Jefferson needs to work harder and smarter, ruck work would probably help his development.

2 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

Fair points but I think the argument still holds.

Brown was expected to be the player he was, injury and all. He only played half the season in his first (and premiership) year with us and when he did play with us his role was managed. I guess I'd describe it as the club being willing to take on some risk, rather than thinking 'We hope this will all change for the better'.

Garlett at Melbourne delivered exactly what he delivered at Carlton. We got him ridonkulusly cheap because he was on the outer in his final season at Carlton for a variety of reasons.

Melksham has always been underrated. I was still friends with Essendon supporters back when he was a Bomber and it really was amusing the way he became the whipping boy for everything that was actually wrong with the whole team. I'd say he and Hibberd were both recruited for what they already were, so that our team actually had something resembling an AFL-level best 22, without any fantasies.

In contrast, I feel like we were imagining that Fullarton (and Shache) would be able to provide a contested target / ruck back up for no more reason than they were tall, that Billings would find form that he simply hadn't for about four seasons and only ever did find in occasional bursts at the best of times, and that McAdam would not only overcome his injury struggles (fair enough - see Brown) but also fill a new role as a marking target just because he has been able to take some good contested marks when the circumstances fit - he wasn't lining up on Weitering or Andrews each week, that's for sure.

Anyway, I feel like I should finish up by saying that my opinion here isn't as harsh as it might sound. There's a lot of screaming and hyperbole and 'anti-fan' energy around here lately which I don't want to be a part of.

Crucially, back in the 'pre-premiership' time, our list had so many flaws that just about any competent AFL-level player could find a role in the team. Now it is much more difficult and any player we bring in has to fit into the precise gaps, otherwise they'll get jammed up Grundy style. Finding a capable forward-who-can-ruck, or a ruck who is ready to cover at AFL level but also doesn't mind churning at VFL level, is probably the hardest task in football recruiting, especially when we don't have vast buckets of cash to throw around.

Footy for mine is a lot about being in the right spot, getting to the right spot, denying others the right spot and a thorough understanding of where a ball is going and where it is. ( kinda like the old game in the Sun.... for those that remember ) Some are gifted...just know and understand.  Some have the building blocks but need practice and mentoring.

Some should take up macrame....

15 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Interesting context..

In my view , in that analogy, is we traded to keep the business solvent but in doing so in that manner have contributed nothing to developing it. At best we tread water....whilst others improve.  Imho...exactly what has occurred.

Short term l agree, medium term we have windsor and kolt

On 24/07/2024 at 11:03, DiscoStu17 said:

This has not been the case recently. Fullarton has been starting in ruck for 20+ minutes then Verrall gets 5min at the end of the quarter. They’re obviously trying to see if Fullarton can do the role with more exposure, but all it’s doing is stuffing up Verrall’s development and the clearances.

Fullarton is a back up for Verrall. That’s how it is, and should be. Verrall be ready next year to replace Max should it happen. Hopefully it doesn’t for a couple years more. Fullarton is a VFL back up ruck. It’s why he hasn’t played whilst Max was injured. Fullarton isn’t much chop, and sometimes that happens. Lesson learnt by the list management - do your homework next time. They’d have got their serve.