our backline

[since57 0]

what are we going to do about our backline?another thread has already alluded to it - we cannot win a premiership with our current crop of backline players.

is there anyone on the horizon? there seems to be more talent up forward, maybe we should move neitz to full back, we know he can be effective there .

forwards and midfield, no worries really, the talent is there, they just have to gel.

but the backline, geez, i just cant see it

[Adzman 2,085]

I think you will find Frawley was recruited to help balance out that back 6. Word is he is already up to standard and he would be playing if it were not for his fractured foot.

Warnock looks ok also.

Our back six will hit some form.

Let us not forget that rivo was missing last week. He makes that back 6 look much better.

I am more concerned with our general approach to the game, not the back 6.

[occo 2]

I really like the look of warnock and frawley. Wheels as the smaller running player in back pocket. Rivers looks to take CHB for next 10 years. My issue is HF pockets, as Bell and C.Johnson makes our backline look ordinary. Perhaps Bartram to take some pressure off, although i wanna see him play midfield.

I think our ruck is the more important area of our game as games are won and lost here. White is obviously getting old and Jamar is taking very very very long time. P.Johnson lacks around the ground. This draft / trade we must attack for a KPP defender and a ruckman. We need a key possy player as these players like Bell and C.Johnson are good but for us to win a premiership we need someone who plays back pockett or HB pocket week in week out. None of this rotating stuff. Dont want to talk about tradeable players but i have some in mind that would cause an argument on here and release them when we are out for the year to attack some KPP.

[Rogue 585]

what are we going to do about our backline?another thread has already alluded to it - we cannot win a premiership with our current crop of backline players.

is there anyone on the horizon? there seems to be more talent up forward, maybe we should move neitz to full back, we know he can be effective there .

forwards and midfield, no worries really, the talent is there, they just have to gel.

but the backline, geez, i just cant see it

We probably can't win a premiership with our ruck division either, and we need someone to step up at CHF. If you're thinking we're going to win one this year you're probably dreaming. Neitz at FB would be robbing Peter to pay Paul, and I can't see it working that well anyhow.

Looking ahead a few years we can hope that Carrol has turned into a bona fide FB, Frawley develops, and Rivers is the general. A more pressing need is the ruck division, as although White is probably past his best he's still miles ahead of Jamar (and PJ if you want to call him a ruck potential).

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

My issue is HF pockets, as Bell and C.Johnson makes our backline look ordinary.

players like Bell and C.Johnson are good but for us to win a premiership we need someone who plays back pockett or HB pocket week in week out. None of this rotating stuff.

Opinion may be slightly divided about CJ at this stage, but you under-rate Bell IMO. It also doesn't help that CJ has been groomed as one of these mid-height utilities.

Since 2000 every fan's best 22 has started with "B: Whelan." As sad a day as it will be for MFC and football on the whole when wrecker finally leaves us, Bell will slip in beautifully into this role. That's assuming he doesn't get traded.

He's extremely fast, fit, hardworking, has a sensational kick even under pressure, and IMO knows how to play a shutdown game while getting his fair share of the ball. Before everyone gets on and starts bemoaning his lack of decision-making ability, it's worth noting that, on the surface, that is his only fault as a player. He can play, and has played stopping games on the league's elite. How anyone can advocate dropping him this early in the season is beyond me. Rivers will be the 10 year CHB we all want, Carroll could possibly have another 5-8 years at FB, and Bell will crack 200 in the demons' defence, just like Whelan.

As far as the recruiting in the near future is concerned, we went from Stynes to White, and have had a league-leading ruckman for the better part of 20 years, year in, year out. Now has come the time to pull another BIG deal for a Leuenberger type. Whether we deal for an established young guy or recruit someone good in the draft, it has to be considered TOP priority. In the near future we have Carroll, Rivers and one of Ferguson, Frawley and Warnock in defence. Yes we need one more, but I'd say CHF is the next most crucial problem. We've got 2 established key forwards who are over 28, then we have Dunn, Garland and Newton who have proved only very little, and Miller who is having some fairly concerning problems. After that it's only HUGE maybes with Bate (too good elsewhere) PJ (shown little) and Jamar (shown little, and is a ruckman). What we need, if not that ruckman I spoke about, is a dyed-in-the-wool resilient CHF who can stay there for 4 quarters. Or even better, a player like Gumby who apparently can play ruck and CHF just as effectively.

So for me, our backline is actually third in line, in terms of importance. At least recruitment-wise it's Ruck - CHF - KP defender. Even IF we do a 2005 and recruit 3 talls, and allow them to slowly come through the system, we will have second or third round picks and all 3 will take at least 3 years to develop.

No. We have this year and MAYBE next year (that's a big maybe considering Daniher's future). After that it's no finals for a little while, as we go about finding the next David Neitz, Jeff White, Al Nicholson...

[since57 0]

I really like the look of warnock and frawley. Wheels as the smaller running player in back pocket. Rivers looks to take CHB for next 10 years. My issue is HF pockets, as Bell and C.Johnson makes our backline look ordinary. Perhaps Bartram to take some pressure off, although i wanna see him play midfield.

I think our ruck is the more important area of our game as games are won and lost here. White is obviously getting old and Jamar is taking very very very long time. P.Johnson lacks around the ground. This draft / trade we must attack for a KPP defender and a ruckman. We need a key possy player as these players like Bell and C.Johnson are good but for us to win a premiership we need someone who plays back pockett or HB pocket week in week out. None of this rotating stuff. Dont want to talk about tradeable players but i have some in mind that would cause an argument on here and release them when we are out for the year to attack some KPP.

100% with you occo.

the ruck division was my 2nd area of concern

[occo 2]

Opinion may be slightly divided about CJ at this stage, but you under-rate Bell IMO. It also doesn't help that CJ has been groomed as one of these mid-height utilities.

Since 2000 every fan's best 22 has started with "B: Whelan." As sad a day as it will be for MFC and football on the whole when wrecker finally leaves us, Bell will slip in beautifully into this role. That's assuming he doesn't get traded.

Alrighty wanna start by i accept what ur saying and read all ur post. However i do feel that Bell is an issue. I just dont see him as being a good footy player. Personally i feel that his decision making is a major concirn and something that cant be learned overnight or in a season i wouldnt think. Its more instinctive...you either have it or you dont.

Our CHF i believe isnt a major issue. I really like the look of Dunn and believe he can read the play, has good decision making, take a contested mark and kick a goal. I feel that he has potentual to be our X factor in the future, someone who can win the game for us. As you said, 1-2 years max so looking for a CHF is useless as it would take 2-3 years to develop him. By then i feel that Dunn will have put on body strength and in our 22. Why would we recruit a CHF so in 2-3 years he can be ready to play when Dunn will most likely be availible then...unless you really dont see dunn as a CHF.

There is no doubt that our FF possition is also an issue but i havnt seen much of Newton to be honest so ill leave that area for thoes who have seen him.

Frawley in my opinion will play FB and become a 22 player in 2009, taking Carrolls spot. I cant say much about him but he looks to be the right height for a FB and will have speed which many of our FB's havnt had for a number of years. Thats carrolls real worry and although he is good...he does struggle.

Personally i would have attacked for Guardner but that thought will be very devided.

Ruck - HF pocket - FF in my opinion

[Jarka 767]

We have a serious lack of talented tall players, in fact we probably have the worst list in regards to that area.

[Gouga 512]

I think our defence is actually shaping up quite nicely. Our three main hopes Carroll, Rivers and Warnock will all improve and Whelan is the best small defender in the game.

If Frawley is as good as we all think he will be I think our defence will be up there with the best in the competition.

I know Holland is getting the job done but he is a temporary solution and is probably holding back our development.

The jury is out on Ferguson but I'm not writing him off yet.

[maximum bob 462]

what are we going to do about our backline?another thread has already alluded to it - we cannot win a premiership with our current crop of backline players.

is there anyone on the horizon? there seems to be more talent up forward, maybe we should move neitz to full back, we know he can be effective there .

forwards and midfield, no worries really, the talent is there, they just have to gel.

but the backline, geez, i just cant see it

This post is simply naive and dumb. A troll maybe? 'We know Neitz can be effective at full back'. Since when? Try CHB . And ever heard of Chip Frawley? Recruited specifically for the backline. Not to mention Rivers, Bell, Clint and CJ.

Idiot.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Its more instinctive...you either have it or you dont.

unless you really dont see dunn as a CHF.

There is no doubt that our FF possition is also an issue

Frawley in my opinion will play FB and become a 22 player in 2009

Personally i would have attacked for Guardner but that thought will be very devided.

Interesting. Good post.

- I'd like to see WHY you think it can't be taught. Players like McLeod and Chris Johnson (BL), who are among the better decision makers, are not now the same players they were when they were within their first 50 games. They were always good, even in their AFL infancy, but they are now great. Belly has made a few glaring errors, but he hasn't had a bad one in a while now, and I reckon a lot of people are waiting for him to do it because it's been a characteristic of his game so far. Almost the ONLY characteristic. If he had a regular amount of mistakes from here on in people would rate him unfairly. For me, I'll take a kid who has every attribute you need to succeed as a footballer any time. I'm confident he'll improve in this regard, and while he'll never have the brains of a Rivers/Whelan, he'll still be a sensational player for MFC. I hope you leave yourself open to this, as I reckon he deserves a chance. Perhaps it's just enough for you to keep an eye on him for me. I've been watching him extremely closely since his recruitment and debut, and I reckon he's one of the most important players we have in development. I respect the position of most posters on his potential, as he has made some mistakes, but I for one think he's got to be considered a vital selection if we're to go forward. I'll ask you again later in the year. I hope you and others come around.

- You're onto me there. It's not so much that I don't think he CAN be a CHF, it's just I've not really seen him play there that much (he's played off a flank quite a bit), and he's not proven all that much to me yet. Also, I have doubts about his abilities in the long run as a 22 game stay at home CHF. He'll be good, and that's fine, but I want the next Brown/Neitz. In terms of exciting youth I've got him after McLean/Bate/Jones etc etc. In fact, almost all our exciting youth are smaller players. I want at least one of these "future stars" to be a CHF/FF. Also, of the younger guys there exactly 2 tall forwards we are developing. One has played 14 games, the other 0. It's VERY early days. Many have criticised Dunn's hardness. I reckon that's premature too, but it's something I;m not prepared to comment on YET. In terms of tall forwards I reckon we just need heaps more cattle, and we don't have a future star up there in the way we do in defence (Rivers) or the midfield (Jones, McLean).

- Yeah, Newton looks ok. You may be pleasantly surprised even. Both he and Dunn could turn into a devastating forward line, but they're only 2 players (not counting Miller here). I reckon we need 4 tall forwards in the mould of Brisbane with Bradshaw, Brown, Lynch and one of White/Leppitch etc etc. What if one of those guys gets injured? We just need more cattle there, so why not recruit a star tall forward?

- Interesting. Yeah Frawley will come along, but I don't reckon they'll limit him in the way they have with Carroll. He'll probably play a variety of roles. Anything but forward and ruck.

- Gardiner from WC/Saints? Naah. Not for me. Too old. I'm talking long term here. 5 years +.

We have a serious lack of talented tall players, in fact we probably have the worst list in regards to that area.

It's not so much that we have THE WORST talls. We have SHORT talls I reckon.

[occo 2]

Interesting. Good post.

Good comeback. Ill start with Bell. I guess i like many other people are questionable of him due to the fact that he was recruited at pick 14 (I think im right there but let me know if im not) in 2002. I have watched him too, possibly not as much as you have as i didnt become a melbourne supporter till 2002 (before hand hated watching any sport and please dont judge me on that...i feel i know quite a bit about melbourne and have been a member every year + donating $ by wins). I wont speak on behalf of me on other supporters too. I guess i feel that with someone like bartram being picked at 60 and playing every game for first year, that someone 46 picks below him should be able to be a 22 player now. Similar to Rivers at pick 26 that Bell should be better than him 12 picks below him. I accept that this is an unfair judgement because each player takes time to develop and they do this in their own time. I just really wonder about Bells decision making, both when he has the ball and he doesent. I cant comment on Chris Johnson (bris) because i never saw him over a period of time. Its hard to explain about bell, i just dont have great confidence watching him with the ball. In my opinion i cant see him being that good but i am very happy to stand corrected. You have most likely watched him more closely to me so i value your opinion of him greatly and like you said, we will reevaluate at the end of the year.

Dunn will be a good player but i wouldnt be the first that has overrated him just because he can kick a goal. I guess we rate him so highly (perhaps too highly) cause unlike miller he can score, and thats exciting. I do believe he will be a very very good CHF. You speak of Brown (i pressume its Johno Brown). If we could land a player like that or Pavlich i like any other melbourne supporter would be stoked, however thoes players are one of a kind. Its just luck if they turn out like that and before recruiting you have no idea how they will turn out. Think of Judd, everyone said he was good before recruitment but i dont think anyone would have thought he would be that good. The likelyhood of a brown, pav, brad johnson (dogs) is minimal in my opinion, it all comes down to luck and chance at the end of the day...and finishing in bottom 2. I agree with you that we have smaller players but we need to look at who we recruited to see this. Im thinking since 2002 so Nick Smith, Ferguson, Hunter, Bell, Rivers, Bate, Jones, Bartram, Dunn, Sylvia, McLean, Newton, Neville, Buckley (apoligies if i missed some). It is well known that its harder to recruit KPP than midfielders and only a handfull of KPP's you pick will be 10 year players. That eliminates Bate, Jones, Bartram, Sylvia, McLean, Buckley. Ill start with smith, i guess we hoped he would take some pressure off neitz and ruck but that well and truely fell through. Ferguson, he has a chance to be OK but will never shine for us i dont feel. Hunter, the small defender fell through. Bell we have annalised. So the talls left are Newton (ideally melb would have liked him playing already, taking pressure of neitz but you obviously have seen him and i hope he is a 10 year player). Rivers, the medium defender looks to have CHB locked in. 8 of 14 are smaller type players. Melb have been ok since 02, bar 03 so we havnt had the draft on our side. As i said, to pick up KPP players (and tall height) we need to finish bottom 2 to grab a couple of midfielders and later in the draft a taller player, and play them like brisbane in AFL standard (that will only happen if ND realises short term pain means long term gain). I am prepared to sacrifise 3-4 years bottom 4 to get good potentual players, Get KPP (taller player) and play them at AFL standard.

I knew the Gardner issue would be devided and thats my stance but i appreciate why others wouldnt want him.

In my mind, i would really like to see us batteling for a premiership for 2 years, one of thoes years with a new coach. From there i would like to see 3-4 years of bottom 4 and playing every player, something ND has been fairly critised for.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Ok. That's pretty much summed up your politics regarding MFC in 2 paragraphs.

Fair enough on Bell. Though I will say that a pick 14 in one draft can't be measured by a pick 60 in another. Drafting is utterly hit and miss, I really don't envy the people who have to do it. Also, Bell's had his fair share of OP to contend with. Bartram has gone FAR further than he had any right to. Comapring ANYONE to him is pointless, let alone a similar sized player. I get your general gist however, that if a player is taken round 1, the expectations are different. My thinking on this has changed in recent years, mostly beacuse of the influence of players like Judd, Bruce and Bartram who can make fools out of recruiters. I reckon the ranking process in the draft should be forgotten about once the draft is completed. There are just SO many variables once a player has been picked up. For example -

Selection 13 - Bate. Selection 15 - Dunn. Selection 43 - Newton. This is fairly run of the mill. 2 talls taken within close proximity who play different roles. One played a couple more games than the other and is rated slightly higher in the grand scheme. Further down the list Newton hasn't played and as a consequence is rated lower. That's keeping the status quo, you'd suggest.

round 1 - Jones. Round 3 - Buckley. Round 4(?) - Bartram. Now if we thought like that those players would have played an amount of games to reflect their high ranking in the selections. Jones should have been the guy who played 22, Buckley should have gotten a couple and Bartram should be a complete unknown.

I think there's only one way to think about it. Once a player is drafted. He occupies as much space on your list as the next guy, and has as much opportunity as anyone. ND and the footy department clearly think this way, otherwise Barts wouldn't have done what he did. Long may this mindset continue.

As far as drafting stars goes, I don't think MFC can afford 3-4 years in the bottom 4. What if we struggle financially? Nah, I'm not certain bottoming out for years like the Hawks is the way to go. The only instance that shows long-term pain leads to premierships is Brisbane. No matter what happens, eventually we'll bottom out. But I'll be barracking for us to start making finals as soon as possible when the day comes.

[davey_magik 1]

Frawley looks the goods, Carroll is a very solid FB and is now rarely beaten, we all know how good Rivers is (ND needs to start playing him on whoever lines up on CHF, like the big forwards in Brown, Tredrea etc) and I believe Bell, Whelan, Bartram and Ward are good enough small defenders.

Like others in this thread, I think the ruck is an issue. Whitey will continue to be on the decline and can't really compete with the best rucks in the competition anymore and beat them.

[occo 2]

Ok. That's pretty much summed up your politics regarding MFC in 2 paragraphs.

Very Good arguments especially about the draft system. Like you i will always follow melb. Hope i didnt upset you with what i said.

My point of view on finishing bottom for 3-4 years is that in that space we can develop a sensational team and it gives some time for players to get some time under their belt without feeling the pressure that they must make the finals. I do understand the negitive aspects of it, and a finantual issue is a major problem. I leave it up to the melb footy dept this one as they can handle all aspects of it