Garry Lyon: "Melbourne Supporters are Gutted"

[old dee 23,492]

5 hours ago, 58er said:

Funny about that ODee the AFL are not sharing your get rid of the Dees quick quit scheme.

Your  negativity is no doubt based upon years of disappointment but your life is full of events that don't Go The way you like.

We are at rock bottom the way we are playing and our players and Coach and game plan are not in symmetry  but It can get better or we make big changes to ensure that things change.

Forecasting  the finish is foolish inaccurate and a waste of time.

Our task from this week is to Improve and get together and solve the form and skills disaster. There are some good footballers on our list and it's up to them to start playing up to their ability and fir the game plan and selection to be more realistic.

2020 is nowhere near lost yet and anything can happen in this strange world we are in at the present.

Show that you have learned from life and look positively not dismissively on our situation please. 

Us oldies look silly not learning life's lessons and having a half empty approach as it is not going to happen in the AFL much and all as you keep wishing it to eventuate.

You miss my point I am nearing the end physically my suffering re the MFC has an end in sight.

[Lucifers Hero 38,982]

12 minutes ago, Action Jackson said:

So from my understanding we have the following assistant coaches:

- Ben Matthews (midfield) - how much skills based training is he doing because it isn't working?

- Chaplin (defense) - Can't knock the defence at the moment, however I feel Smith should be back up for Lever and we need to play a second key tall to allow Lever to focus on intercept marking, you know that thing we recruited him for??

- Stafford (Ruck and goalkicking) - tbh our goalkicking is improving, however we do not get enough value out of Gawn's hitouts at the moment.

So I don't believe we have a forward coach, is this correct?

If that is the case then why is anyone suprised we can hardly score?

Ben Matthews is 'Stoppage and Contest' coach, Plapp is 'Midfield' coach.  Not sure if Stafford has been cut.  Ditto Lewis who was to be a part-time development/skills coach.

No Fwd coach.  What is worse no coach has forward player or coaching experience.  Some say fwd coach is part of Plapp's responsibility.

Our coaching structure makes it very obvious where the game emphasis lies:  contest, stoppages, defence. 

Forward play is an afterthought and has been for years.  The coaching structure suggests the only investment worthy of the fwd line is 'goal kicking'.  And Goodwin laments our fwd efficiency and mid/fwd connection.  Blind Freddy can see the paradox.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[old dee 23,492]

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Ben Matthews is 'Stoppage and Contest' coach, Plapp is 'Midfield' coach.  Not sure if Stafford has been cut.  Ditto Lewis who was to be a part-time development/skills coach.

No Fwd coach.  What is worse no coach has forward player or coaching experience.  Some say fwd coach is part of Plapp's responsibility.

Our coaching structure makes it very obvious where the game emphasis lies:  contest, stoppages, defence. 

Forward play is an afterthought and has been for years.  The coaching structure suggests the only investment worthy of the fwd line is 'goal kicking'.  And Goodwin laments our fwd efficiency and mid/fwd connection.  Blind Freddy can see the paradox.

Yes LH and yet it still hasn’t dawned on him why we can’t kick goals.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,283]

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Ben Matthews is 'Stoppage and Contest' coach, Plapp is 'Midfield' coach.  Not sure if Stafford has been cut.  Ditto Lewis who was to be a part-time development/skills coach.

No Fwd coach.  What is worse no coach has forward player or coaching experience.  Some say fwd coach is part of Plapp's responsibility.

Our coaching structure makes it very obvious where the game emphasis lies:  contest, stoppages, defence. 

Forward play is an afterthought and has been for years.  The coaching structure suggests the only investment in fwd line is 'goal kicking'.  And Goodwin laments our fwd efficiency and mid/fwd connection.  Blind Freddy can see the paradox.

Surely one of the most important aspects is to get our forwards running patterns that open up the forward line and make it easier to score.

Yes our midfield is currently deplorable with their skill level, but also how often do we have 3 guys or standing together blocking up the area and making it almost impossible to score?

[dazzledavey36 52,758]

34 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

I’ve always thought a lack of ‘Melbourne people’ within our club has lead to a culture of mediocrity. We have very few past players come back and be involved with the club. Robbo is about the only one. Bartlett claims to have supported melbourne, but seems to have been a West Coast man who turned to the Dees when he saw a business opportunity. Pert is not a Melbourne person. He is an AFL puppet with connections to other clubs. I reckon Goodwin in the same boat.

i am not saying that we need a club full of ex-players, but I don’t know tht those we bring into our club build a culture and understand our club. They never seems to connect with the fans and it all seems plastic. I reckon that rubs off on the players and it is why you see a lack of pride in the jumper, as outlined by several outsiders.

there has been a disconnect since Danners left. 

Lyon, Connelly, Stynes, Healey, Schwab, Viney.

All at one stage were working within the club. We won't need to be reminded what that lead too.

None of our former greats have never tasted success. Why bring in former players that have been part of the problem all these years.

Never did I see Hawthorn or Brisbane in their golden era made up of people from within their club. They went out and recruited the best people they thought could influence the standards and culture of their club.

Just go out and recruit the best person that fits the bill. Paul Roos and Peter Jackson were exactly that.

Edited July 6, 2020 by dazzledavey36

[old dee 23,492]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Watching the game yesterday I felt it was all on the players. Against the Cats that was on Goodwin, but yesterday we had enough of the ball, our intensity and attack on the footy was good. We just keep shooting ourselves in the foot with our turnovers and poor decision making. Late in the first quarter we had dominated, Richmond had barely had it forward except for the first minute or two. But we had only kicked 2 goals. Richmond kicked their first goal off an idiotic Viney turnover, and from memory they then kicked two goals to finish the quarter off our errors as well. We kicked one back on the siren to basically level it up at quarter time when we should've been 3 or 4 goals ahead.

So we are getting enough of the footy. The players came into the game with the right mindset. But the turnovers are crucifying us. Is it because the players just aren't up to it? Are they being coached out of taking the best/right options? Can they turn things around with a fraction more composure?

Having said that Goodwin and the coaches do not get off the hook. It is up to them to make gameday moves to try and get the fire started, try and fix these things during the game so that we can actually give ourselves a chance of winning instead of accepting defeat and going back to the drawing board during the week. Goodwin absolutely has ultimate responsibility for failing to make any moves on match day or rectifying things at half time to try and get the players focused on how to turn it around. But I can also see why he would want to persist when if it weren't for some pretty basic errors resulting in turnovers and goals we would be on top. It's a bit of a catch 22 - you can see that what you are doing is working to an extent so do you persist and try and reinforce the gameplan you want played and trust the players to start executing better? Or do you move things around to try and get the short term win on match day but sacrificing your long term gameplan/structures etc

This is what I would do this week to try and address some of these issues;

1 An extra key forward into the side - whether that is Weid or Brown or even Jackson we need another big body down there to at least compete if not take the mark. I would go with Weid bur we have the option of playing both Weid and Brown, moving TMac to defense and dropping Smith

2 following on from 1, Joel Smith should be dropped. Simply not good enough especially in a key defensive post. Maybe as a 3rd tall but we already have Lever in that role. Smith should be injury insurance for Lever and nothing more. We can either move TMac into defense if we bring in 2 key forwards or drop Smith for OMac if we bring in only 1 key forward.

3 Bring in Bennell. I don't care if he's underdone or if he needs to work on his defensive efforts. Other small forwards get games with continual poor defensive efforts without offering anywhere near the upside Bennell brings. Whether he comes in for Hunt, VDB or Melksham, take your pick. I'd bring him in for Hunt at this stage, he did nothing the last 2 games

4 bring in Jones - for all his faults Jones does have some composure and is a relatively decent kick. He can come in for one of VDB or Melksham. Melksham has been rubbish so far but he offers more upside than VDB as he has the capacity to kick 3 or 4 goals. Therefore I'd being in Jones for VDB

5 start Harmes in the middle. He was unsighted on Sunday until moving into the middle in the last where he was one of the reasons we got going. Viney can make way for him at the moment. Petracca is currently our best player and Oliver for all his faults can actually win the ball. Oliver is on thin ice too but he is preferred over Viney at this stage who has hit a wall

6 bring Jetta in - Harmes to the middle makes way for Jetta in defence. Similar to Jones he offers composure and a relatively decent kick coming out of defense. He doesn't have a laser kick by any means but he often makes the sensible choice which is why he has such a high DE%

7 - Brayshaw more time in the middle - i haven't noticed Brayshaw much this year which could be a good or bad thing depending on your perspective. I think he deserves an opportunity to at least show what he has, I think he's the type of player who thrives on the responsibility

Another consideration is ANB in for Lockhart. I'm not wedded to this one though but if we are going to play Lockhart it needs to be forward of centre.

I guess that means my squad would look like this

FB Jetta May Lever

CHB Salem TMac/OMac Hibberd

C Tomlinson Petracca Langdon

CHF Jones Brown/TMac Hannan

FF Pickett Weideman Fritsch

Foll Gawn Harmes Oliver

I/C Melksham Bennell Brayshaw Rivers

In: Jetta Jones Weideman Bennell OMac/Brown

Out: Viney Smith Lockhart Vandenberg Hunt

Dr it never ceases to annoy me that every good forward has to be A terrific defender. If you are a good forward and you constantly have the ball in hand you don’t have to defend a lot. The second thing is play people where they play best. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by old dee

[Lucifers Hero 38,982]

1 minute ago, Action Jackson said:

Surely one of the most important aspects is to get our forwards running patterns that open up the forward line and make it easier to score.

Yes our midfield is currently deplorable with their skill level, but also how often do we have 3 guys or standing together blocking up the area and making it almost impossible to score?

Clearly our GM Football and the Coach don't think so.  They had the chance to fix it in last year's EOS review and did not.

 

On a related note I understand why the club didn't boost the tall fwd stocks at end of 2018.  They rolled the dice on Weideman and TMac but it did not work.  No crime for trying.  But knowing it didn't work they had the chance to fix the 'tall forward' problem (Jackson won't be a fix for several years) at end of 2019 and did not. 

Goodwin again laments the problem of kicking a winnable score.  He had a golden opportunity at end of 2019 to boost personnel; players and coaches and did not.

imv that sits totally on him and Mahoney.

[old dee 23,492]

3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Clearly our GM Football and the Coach don't think so.  They had the chance to fix it in last year's EOS review and did not.

 

On a related note I understand why the club didn't boost the tall fwd stocks at end of 2018.  They rolled the dice on Weideman and TMac but it did not work.  No crime for trying.  But knowing it didn't work they had the chance to fix the 'tall forward' problem (Jackson won't be a fix for several years) at end of 2019 and did not. 

Goodwin again laments the problem of kicking a winnable score.  He had a golden opportunity at end of 2019 to boost personnel; players and coaches and did not.

imv that sits totally on him and Mahoney.

Correct LH we need a full clean out these people have been a round quite some time and it ain’t worked we are not far off being back when Roos took over. 

[Half forward flank 1,022]

1 hour ago, Pates said:

I’m utterly deflated as a fan by how we’ve played since the restart, I really hoped that what happened last year was largely to do with injury, but I think the club made that same ASSUMPTION and haven’t adjusted accordingly. But with a fit list to choose from our efficiency inside 50 is still diabolical. 

But as a fan and member for 20+ I just don’t think I can cop it anymore, I’ve decided I’m not going to watch next week and I’m going to try to actively avoid it because it breaks me every week. I even had a dream last night that I got fired from my work because I got so angry at Melbourne doing stupid things and losing. I think I dreamed we did 30+ forward entries for nothing and the other team goes up the other end once and kicks a goal. I might as well have just watch previous games. 

Classic, your rusted on...

[jnrmac 19,893]

22 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Ben Matthews is 'Stoppage and Contest' coach, Plapp is 'Midfield' coach.  Not sure if Stafford has been cut.  Ditto Lewis who was to be a part-time development/skills coach.

No Fwd coach.  What is worse no coach has forward player or coaching experience.  Some say fwd coach is part of Plapp's responsibility.

Our coaching structure makes it very obvious where the game emphasis lies:  contest, stoppages, defence. 

Forward play is an afterthought and has been for years.  The coaching structure suggests the only investment worthy of the fwd line is 'goal kicking'.  And Goodwin laments our fwd efficiency and mid/fwd connection.  Blind Freddy can see the paradox.

Didn't we have a full internal review last year? Because our game plan was so appalling?

And didn't we change all our assistant coaching roles? To refresh and inject new ideas? We got rid of a bunch of coaches /assistants /strategists

It has clearly failed. I defy anyone to provide evidence to the contrary.

That all points to the Senior Coach who has admitted he doesn't know how to change things.

Lets not procrastinate any longer. he's a dud.

[brendan 3,430]

Some very good points in this thread, 1 thing is for certain I couldn’t go through another rebuild the club might aswell fold if it happens, I think I would get more enjoyment from donating my membership money to the children’s hospital each year 

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,283]

3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Clearly our GM Football and the Coach don't think so.  They had the chance to fix it in last year's EOS review and did not.

 

On a related note I understand why the club didn't boost the tall fwd stocks at end of 2018.  They rolled the dice on Weideman and TMac but it did not work.  No crime for trying.  But knowing it didn't work they had the chance to fix the 'tall forward' problem (Jackson won't be a fix for several years) at end of 2019 and did not. 

Goodwin again laments the problem of kicking a winnable score.  He had a golden opportunity at end of 2019 to boost personnel; players and coaches and did not.

imv that sits totally on him and Mahoney.

Yeah I agree.

Hindsight is always a wonderful thing, but at the end of 2018 we thought we had the best attack, however our defence leaked like a sieve. That campaign wasn't helped by Lever hurting his knee right when he started to hit some form.

I understand why the club went and got May after 2018, but unfortunately it has been a fail so far.

I think we must make a call on one of Viney, Brayshaw or Oliver. I think we need to inject some more leg speed and skillful ball use into the mix, think a Jared Polec or Brad Hill. I would prefer we keep Brayshaw and Oliver, however I think it's unlikely we get rid of Viney unless he decides to leave.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,283]

1 minute ago, brendan said:

Some very good points in this thread, 1 thing is for certain I couldn’t go through another rebuild the club might aswell fold if it happens, I think I would get more enjoyment from donating my membership money to the children’s hospital each year 

I don't think a full rebuild is required, just a few tweaks. 

[jumbo returns 6,703]

21 hours ago, Rednblueriseing said:

Derms comments should be put on the wall and sting, if we don't respond this week were well and truly cooked 

The modern player hardly responds to the blood and guts and glory of the 20th century

[Dr. Gonzo 23,704]

44 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Didn't we have a full internal review last year? Because our game plan was so appalling?

And didn't we change all our assistant coaching roles? To refresh and inject new ideas? We got rid of a bunch of coaches /assistants /strategists

It has clearly failed. I defy anyone to provide evidence to the contrary.

That all points to the Senior Coach who has admitted he doesn't know how to change things.

Lets not procrastinate any longer. he's a dud.

What changes were actually made? I'm sure some were but it was more shuffling deck chair. Rooke was moved from forward coach to a development coach? Rawlings, Jennings and McCartney are gone. Rooke, Mathews, Plapp, Chaplin, Egan and Mahoney are all still there. Richardson has been brought in to replace Macca and I am not sold on him.

We were also meant to have Stafford and Lewis in development roles though they don't appear on the club's website so could be casualties of reduced expenses over the last few months.

It seems not much has changed at all - all of our assistant coaches were there before last year's review and most have been there since 2016.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Lyon, Connelly, Stynes, Healey, Schwab, Viney.

All at one stage were working within the club. We won't need to be reminded what that lead too.

None of our former greats have never tasted success. Why bring in former players that have been part of the problem all these years.

Never did I see Hawthorn or Brisbane in their golden era made up of people from within their club. They went out and recruited the best people they thought could influence the standards and culture of their club.

Just go out and recruit the best person that fits the bill. Paul Roos and Peter Jackson were exactly that.

Hawthorn had both Derm and Dunstall involved when Clarkson was appointed. I think you’ve missed my point completely. I never said we had to stack the place full of ex players. Kennett is also a massive Hawthorn man and  a big voice. 

[dazzledavey36 52,758]

1 minute ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Hawthorn had both Derm and Dunstall involved when Clarkson was appointed. I think you’ve missed my point completely. I never said we had to stack the place full of ex players. Kennett is also a massive Hawthorn man and  a big voice. 

There is only 2 past people id happily have at the back and that's Adam Yze and Brad Miller.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

2 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

There is only 2 past people id happily have at the back and that's Adam Yze and Brad Miller.

Brad Miller...why? 

[dazzledavey36 52,758]

3 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Brad Miller...why? 

Premiership winning coach for the Giants reserves in the NEAFL and is currently works with their forwards as well.

I know internally he was highly rated by Roos and was disappointed in losing him to the Giants. Very much respected within Giants circles and is doing a fine apprenticeship under Cameron so far.

He'll never come back to his family, but he's someone that's doing a decent job up there.

Edited July 7, 2020 by dazzledavey36