TRADES, DELIST, PROMOTE

[58er 6,377]

17 minutes ago, Turner said:

its players like baker who is 23 next year and only a handful of games and we still treat him as young and up and coming but its 5 years in the system! like if youre not best 22 by then then u just clogging someone younger and with more upside but no doubt he'll start out of the side come in mid season for 6-8 games and earn another 1 year deal and on it goes a la ANB, Hunt, hannan to date

To be fair Turner Baker has had virtually 2 seasons out injured and no games until late this season when he I would say surprised is all with his ability.

To not give that an opportunity now a chance to blossom on the wing ( or HFF) would be a crime. 

You are sounding like our Coach who is far too stubborn to go by gut feeling and only by the text book rules and regs.

What you have indicated may well be common sense but as we all know there are exceptions to every rule in this caper and life indeed.

Happy if Bakes can prove the 23 yo "rule" wrong.

[DeeSpencer 25,412]

17 minutes ago, Turner said:

its players like baker who is 23 next year and only a handful of games and we still treat him as young and up and coming but its 5 years in the system! like if youre not best 22 by then then u just clogging someone younger and with more upside but no doubt he'll start out of the side come in mid season for 6-8 games and earn another 1 year deal and on it goes a la ANB, Hunt, hannan to date

Oskar Baker is 22 and has had 3 years in the system, don’t project forward to beef up your argument. He has a couple of elite traits which are line breaking run and penetrating kicking. He’s well worth a 4th year to make or break his career.

ANB was messy but he was also an effective AFL player in 2018. He is a story of failed skill development and lack of depth. Shouldn’t have got a 2 year deal last year but whatever. Develop players properly is the message with him. 
 

Im with you on Hannan and Hunt. 

But it’s also important to go through the finals teams and see that players come together at all sorts of ages and times. Ryan Lester and Trent McKenzie played full back for their respective winning sides. Lester’s been on one year deals for a decade and McKenzie was cut from a joke of a side. 
 

The other thing is you need to establish the culture of player development and good recruiting. Which comes from good coaching, good training standards, knowing who has the upside to hold on to. You cut 10 guys and replace them with 10 no names and you end up back where you started. The secret to success is a happy club, a mature club, good draft picks and good trades. 

[58er 6,377]

43 minutes ago, A F said:

The not reviewing the prelim has become a bit of an urban myth on these parts.

Goodwin said he never reviewed it with the players, but you can bet they reviewed it as a coaching group.

What's the point in a deep review of a game where you don't turn up? I was at the game and we weren't on from the very first bounce. What would sitting around saying you should have done better done to the players? They know they needed to be better that day. 

What we need to become is consistent. Some can call it ruthless, but consistency is the key. Particularly if we get our forward structure and craft right, and use the ball better from midfield in a more attacking way.

With consistency we turn up and give Port a shake. With consistency we beat Bulldogs, Sydney and Fremantle. 

We tidied up our ball use by the end of the year, but the ball use in the second half of the year matched with consistency and we probably beat Geelong (a kick after the siren remember), Brisbane (a simple Bennell shot at goal) and go much closer to Richmond (our ball use that day was horrendous).

We're not as far off as some think.

Brisbane was Hannan making an horrendous decision to pass to Fritta wide out 50 m on the boundary and overkicked (Fritta Should  also be councilled on leading patterns as part of his development) BTW I believe Viney was 30 m in front of goal on his own!!!

Tommo did not treat that shot serious enough and hurried it  Again  on field leadership may well have saved that and we win the game.

I agree that in some ways we are on the cusp and need to swap some Assistant and Line Coaches to pressure Goody to pay attention to detail ie the 1% ers they matter.
 

 

[58er 6,377]

8 hours ago, Turner said:

interesting no mention of Bradtke... guess he's locked in

+ u didnt edit out Smith, ik we all wish he was still on that list

Lucifer I don't think Rivers  has  taken Locky's possie one IMO is a BP and the other a HBF er  although the speed height and cleverness of an opponent could make them interchangeable st any given time.

I like to think Locky has replaced Nev but in the BP and Rivers  is a replacement For either Hibbo or Nev on HBF.

Both are great young players and have the attributes to play along with May  Lever Tommo and Hibbo still plus others we recruit.

Smith should be tried up forward next season fir his own sake and the teams. 

[Adam The God 30,104]

If you look at Port Adelaide, they've been nowhere for a long time. They may well win a flag this year.

They had a superb 2018 draft by nailing three of their top 20 picks, but the key to their success this year has been consistency (outside of the Geelong game).

Their team had some good players in the midfield and forwardline that they recruited and traded in over the years, but could never get it all to click consistently. They would often fall away in the second half of seasons.

I'd argue we've had a similar yet somewhat different trajectory as a list and as a club. We've struggled for consistency within games, but managed to play most seasons to the very end (the exception being the final round of 2016 and 2017).

But we've built an elite midfield core (the fundamental core of any aspiring premiership side), addressed our backline deficiencies by recruiting Lever, May, Hibberd, Tomlinson to go with Salem and now Rivers.

We nailed our 2019 draft, bringing in a key tall and ruck, a zippy mercurial small forward and a gun half back (someone who can probably roll through the midfield in time too). These three compliment three areas of the ground. Rivers adds to the backline; Jackson adds to the KPF stocks and forward structure as well as an extra mid or ruckman; and Pickett adds pressure and creativity to our forwardline.

I think one more off season of adding to this team, get the structures right and I think we'll see greater consistency next year. This will convert to more wins and should see a top 4-6 finish. We should be aiming for the flag next year and it's not as far off as people think.

[DeeSpencer 25,412]

9 minutes ago, A F said:

But we've built an elite midfield core (the fundamental core of any aspiring premiership side), addressed our backline deficiencies by recruiting Lever, May, Hibberd, Tomlinson to go with Salem and now Rivers.

 

The difference between Port and us is they kept adding all the way along with the likes of Burton, Amon, Clurey, Byrne-Jones, SPP, Houston, Ladhams. Little upgrades year on year even when some of their more experienced talent from their first great year under Kenny was either declining or getting traded out.

Their backline is a great illustration of that. Whilst they'd love a proper tall full back (and traded Howard out for unusual reasons) they have 7 very strong defenders. The backbone of any good side. 7 players who can kick, mark and defend. 

On the other hand we potentially have 4 in May, Lever, Salem and Rivers.

Maybe Hibbo turns back the clock. Maybe Tomlinson finds more mobility and contested ability. Maybe Smith clicks. Or Lockarth, Hore, or Petty or Nietschke. But if we can't put 7 trusty defenders out there we aren't going anywhere.

[Adam The God 30,104]

16 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

The difference between Port and us is they kept adding all the way along with the likes of Burton, Amon, Clurey, Byrne-Jones, SPP, Houston, Ladhams. Little upgrades year on year even when some of their more experienced talent from their first great year under Kenny was either declining or getting traded out.

Their backline is a great illustration of that. Whilst they'd love a proper tall full back (and traded Howard out for unusual reasons) they have 7 very strong defenders. The backbone of any good side. 7 players who can kick, mark and defend. 

On the other hand we potentially have 4 in May, Lever, Salem and Rivers.

Maybe Hibbo turns back the clock. Maybe Tomlinson finds more mobility and contested ability. Maybe Smith clicks. Or Lockarth, Hore, or Petty or Nietschke. But if we can't put 7 trusty defenders out there we aren't going anywhere.

What difference? We've kept adding and building in a very similar way. They've been a project that's been building under Hinkley since 2013. 

You talk about little upgrades year on year. Well, how's Lever at the end of 2017, May at the end of 2018, Langdon at the end of 2019. We've brought in three elite acquisitions in three years to go with a midfield we essentially built between 2014-2016.

We're a year or so behind them. 

[DeeSpencer 25,412]

27 minutes ago, A F said:

What difference? We've kept adding and building in a very similar way. They've been a project that's been building under Hinkley since 2013. 

You talk about little upgrades year on year. Well, how's Lever at the end of 2017, May at the end of 2018, Langdon at the end of 2019. We've brought in three elite acquisitions in three years to go with a midfield we essentially built between 2014-2016.

We're a year or so behind them. 

Neither Langdon nor Lever are elite and it's one player per year from 2016 to 2018 at this stage until a much better year in 2019.

2016: Hibbo was great but he isn't now. Maybe - Hannan
2017: Lever sure, Fritsch. Maybe - Spargo, Petty, Baker
2018: May a tick. KK a cross. Maybe - Sparrow, Jordon, et al

The only new additions to Port's side this year are McKenzie and Ladhams. Otherwise 20 of the 22 that played the other week are good AFL players. If you're generous you might be able to get to about 17 for us and that includes 3 first year kids none of whom did nearly as much as Port's trio did in year 1.

[Adam The God 30,104]

23 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Neither Langdon nor Lever are elite and it's one player per year from 2016 to 2018 at this stage until a much better year in 2019.

2016: Hibbo was great but he isn't now. Maybe - Hannan
2017: Lever sure, Fritsch. Maybe - Spargo, Petty, Baker
2018: May a tick. KK a cross. Maybe - Sparrow, Jordon, et al

The only new additions to Port's side this year are McKenzie and Ladhams. Otherwise 20 of the 22 that played the other week are good AFL players. If you're generous you might be able to get to about 17 for us and that includes 3 first year kids none of whom did nearly as much as Port's trio did in year 1.

Yeah, disagree. Langdon is elite. He has more levels to go to, but he's elite IMV.

I can see why Lever doesn't get that tick. He was elite at Adelaide and I reckon he can get back to that sort of form next year. He and May got better as the year went on.

[DeeSpencer 25,412]

14 minutes ago, A F said:

Yeah, disagree. Langdon is elite. He has more levels to go to, but he's elite IMV.

I can see why Lever doesn't get that tick. He was elite at Adelaide and I reckon he can get back to that sort of form next year. He and May got better as the year went on.

You can't be an outside player, get as much as the ball as Langdon does and kick the ball as poorly as he does and be elite. 2 goals for the entire year. 3.2 score involvements for a guy who got a stack of it. Not sure he's going to improve either. He's physically at the top of his game and his kicking probably is what it is now. I can't see how he's suddenly going to find more penetration and power in his kicking at age 25. He'd pretty much have to completely retrain his action and maybe change his body. We should get 100 very solid games out of him

Lever's one who can take a big step forward, his best games were very good. He's had a full year to get confidence in his knees, but I think it's next year or never.

[Adam The God 30,104]

24 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

You can't be an outside player, get as much as the ball as Langdon does and kick the ball as poorly as he does and be elite. 2 goals for the entire year. 3.2 score involvements for a guy who got a stack of it. Not sure he's going to improve either. He's physically at the top of his game and his kicking probably is what it is now. I can't see how he's suddenly going to find more penetration and power in his kicking at age 25. He'd pretty much have to completely retrain his action and maybe change his body. We should get 100 very solid games out of him

Lever's one who can take a big step forward, his best games were very good. He's had a full year to get confidence in his knees, but I think it's next year or never.

With another genuine winger beside him and I reckon Ed will take the next step.

He spent half the first part of the season playing defensive cover and sweeper. 

Had elite metres gained. Needs to hit the scoreboard more, but IMV he was top 5 or 6 wingers in the league.

I think next year we can expect better things from Lever too. I think he'll be helped by having two big bodies to take the two biggest opposition forwards, allowing him to zone off, plus the continuity gained from this year. I'm really excited by our defence. I think we can find one or two more plug and plays that will fit into that system. May, Tomlinson, Lever, Hibberd, Salem, Rivers, Lockhart and Melksham would be my picks for the back half.

[drdrake 3,157]

Watching the finals over the weekend showed the importance of playing 2 specialised ruckman or a Forward/Ruck.  The only side that didn't play 2 rucks was Western Bulldogs, Ryder and Marshall just rag dolled the Bulldogs ruck.

To me the Bulldogs need Preuss and push English as the Forward/Ruck option.  They have a strong midfield adding a competent Ruck will take them to the next level.  I would offer Preuss & pick 23/47 for Dogs Pick 12 and 36.  This would be a win for both clubs, Bulldogs don't need their first round pick, but need points to cover for their NGA player that Adelaide or North will bid for.

[Deeko2 808]

14 hours ago, A F said:

If you look at Port Adelaide, they've been nowhere for a long time. They may well win a flag this year.

They had a superb 2018 draft by nailing three of their top 20 picks, but the key to their success this year has been consistency (outside of the Geelong game).

Their team had some good players in the midfield and forwardline that they recruited and traded in over the years, but could never get it all to click consistently. They would often fall away in the second half of seasons.......

Really good post AF in regards to the Port Adelaide comparisons.

The other thing I’ve noticed about Port is is the amount of inside mids they play. 

I read on here frequently about Trac, Olly, Viney and Brayshaw being one too many yet they won over the weekend with Wines, Boak, Powell-Pepper and Rockliff in the guts. They also rotated Robbie Gray through there who won some vital clearances as did Darcy B-J.

I really like how the Power have gone about it over the last couple years and right now my monies on them for the flag.

 

 

 

[old55 23,348]

17 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

Do you speak to your husband like that?

OK I'll spoon feed you ...

Using @Lucifer's Hero excellent out of contract list for this year.  Who would you re-contract, for how long and who would you trade or delist.

Bedford, Fritsch, Hibberd, Hannan, Hore, Hunt, Jones, Jordon, OMac, Nietschke, Petty, Smith, Sparrow, Spargo, Viney, Bennell, Brown, Chandler, Lockhart, Bradtke

[xman97 108]

About these graphs: List continuity is the percentage of time on ground by players on the list in the previous season. Historical average shown on the blue dashed line.

I’ve posted the 2 teams (Port & Stk) who have gone to the next level this year. Could we try to simulate in some regard or do you think it’s more coincidental than anything? Keep in mind, this is not just new players at the club, this is combined with existing players coming into the best 22.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

11 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

OK I'll spoon feed you ...

Using @Lucifer's Hero excellent out of contract list for this year.  Who would you re-contract, for how long and who would you trade or delist.

Bedford, Fritsch, Hibberd, Hannan, Hore, Hunt, Jones, Jordon, OMac, Nietschke, Petty, Smith, Sparrow, Spargo, Viney, Bennell, Brown, Chandler, Lockhart, Bradtke

You have nt answered my question 

[Turner 1,506]

1 hour ago, Pollyanna said:

OK I'll spoon feed you ...

Using @Lucifer's Hero excellent out of contract list for this year.  Who would you re-contract, for how long and who would you trade or delist.

Bedford, Fritsch, Hibberd, Hannan, Hore, Hunt, Jones, Jordon, OMac, Nietschke, Petty, Smith, Sparrow, Spargo, Viney, Bennell, Brown, Chandler, Lockhart, Bradtke

1yr: Bedford, Hibbo, Hore, Jordon, Spargo, Lockhart, Bradtke, Brown, Nietschke

2yrs: Fritsch ? , Sparrow ? , Petty ? , Viney 

Off the list: Hannan, Hunt, OMac, Chandler, Jones, Smith, Bennell

but its decisions like vanders 3yrs, melky's still got another two, nibblers 2 last year, TMac for crying out loud! that the club has managed poorly. Jetta and KK should've fallen off this year too realistically and these are the kinds of decisions that show the FD is a year behind. how Jagner survived as long as he did i'll never understand. and this time next year everyone will be saying Smith has to go, Hannan, Hunt etc when we had the opportunity this year to make those calls. theyre flashy players with limitations that hold them back and hold the club back.

Look at PA's 2018 exits they had so many middling players that they axed who were just getting by year on year without actually starring and they made the calls to cut them all and they've shone, even a 29yo Broadbent last year with 170odd games. a player like that we would allow to just exist on 1yr deals for a couple of years till they retired. or sam gray who played 17 games in his final season but they delist him and actively seek a better option. We cant even chop a player who scrapped their way to 5 games gifted mostly out of lack of decent alternative options! 

[Grimes Times 1,278]

5 hours ago, drdrake said:

Watching the finals over the weekend showed the importance of playing 2 specialised ruckman or a Forward/Ruck.  The only side that didn't play 2 rucks was Western Bulldogs, Ryder and Marshall just rag dolled the Bulldogs ruck.

To me the Bulldogs need Preuss and push English as the Forward/Ruck option.  They have a strong midfield adding a competent Ruck will take them to the next level.  I would offer Preuss & pick 23/47 for Dogs Pick 12 and 36.  This would be a win for both clubs, Bulldogs don't need their first round pick, but need points to cover for their NGA player that Adelaide or North will bid for.

I like the deal but it doesn't give the WB more points it gives them 600 odd less

[drdrake 3,157]

2 minutes ago, Grimes Times said:

I like the deal but it doesn't give the WB more points it gives them 600 odd less

Yep, but they get Preuss as well which I thing if you put that 600 points into a draft pick that would be around mid 3rd round about right value for Preuss

Edited October 5, 2020 by drdrake

[Grimes Times 1,278]

7 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Yep, but they get Preuss as well which I thing if you put that 600 points into a draft pick that would be around mid 3rd round about right value for Preuss

Yes but WB dont do the deal just for the fact they need draft points and with that deal they go backwards 600 points. It doesnt help them get Ugle-Hagan.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Grimes Times

[drdrake 3,157]

3 minutes ago, Grimes Times said:

Yes but BW dont do the deal just for the fact they need draft points and with that deal they go backwards 600 points. It doesnt help them get Ugle-Hagan.

They get the rumoured best young player in the competition and to me a massive missing key in their list.  Worse case we don't get the pick swap 47/36, I would still be happy to move our pick 23 forward 11 spots for Preuss.  I think we can still get a very good player at 12, not to say we won't at 23 but we will have more options at 12.  Would love for us to get this pick somehow

[Grimes Times 1,278]

12 minutes ago, drdrake said:

They get the rumoured best young player in the competition and to me a massive missing key in their list.  Worse case we don't get the pick swap 47/36, I would still be happy to move our pick 23 forward 11 spots for Preuss.  I think we can still get a very good player at 12, not to say we won't at 23 but we will have more options at 12.  Would love for us to get this pick somehow

The WB need about 2400 points to get this kid. They currently have picks 12,36,48 equals 2072 point. If they trade Pruess and 23 for 12 they drop to 1619. I would also love to use Pruess to get hold of 12 from the WB but they arent doing it unless they have other trades to bring in more picks/points.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Grimes Times

[Adam The God 30,104]

4 hours ago, xman97 said:

About these graphs: List continuity is the percentage of time on ground by players on the list in the previous season. Historical average shown on the blue dashed line.

I’ve posted the 2 teams (Port & Stk) who have gone to the next level this year. Could we try to simulate in some regard or do you think it’s more coincidental than anything? Keep in mind, this is not just new players at the club, this is combined with existing players coming into the best 22.

I love this sort of stuff, but what are you trying to tie this to? Are you saying that our list is far less experienced than the other two lists? 

[drdrake 3,157]

1 hour ago, Grimes Times said:

The WB need about 2400 points to get this kid. They currently have picks 12,36,48 equals 2072 point. If they trade Pruess and 23 for 12 they drop to 1619. I would also love to use Pruess to get hold of 12 from the WB but they arent doing it unless they have other trades to bring in more picks/points.

Thanks, does you 2400 points include the discount they get, I think it's 30% or something like that

[Grimes Times 1,278]

7 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Thanks, does you 2400 points include the discount they get, I think it's 30% or something like that

I've used pick 1 as en example which is 3000 points, i think the discount is 20%??