Its the forward line stupid

[Fat Tony 5,231]

2 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

I like the idea of Weid and Petty swapping roles.  I think Weid could be very good as a tall back. FWIW I still have faith in him as a forward but with Petty and now Jackson he's got competition for a spot there.

OMac will be in the starting 22 as a key back, but if he can't turn around his form this year then we've got a vacancy there and Weid would be very good I think.

I question if Weideman is fast enough to play in defence. In saying that, McGovern isn’t that quick and it’s much easier for players who can run and jump and take a high mark in the backline. 

[old55 23,590]

29 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

I question if Weideman is fast enough to play in defence. In saying that, McGovern isn’t that quick and it’s much easier for players who can run and jump and take a high mark in the backline. 

How quick is Phil Davis? You can't be slow but I don't think Weid is.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Fifty-5

[Fat Tony 5,231]

33 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

How quick is Phil Davis? You can't be slow but I don't think Weid is.

I think a fit Davis is quicker than Weid. But I am not against experimenting. 

[Macca 16,972]

2 hours ago, old dee said:

Seriously Jackson at FF by round 2! 

From what I understand he has never played at FF. I also understand his marking is average.

Second round 2021 is perhaps a chance but he would need to play blinders in the preseason to be in the team round 2 in 2020.

I will be astounded if he plays in the senior side this side of July 2020 and he will only get a game if two things happen.

- He plays way better than most expect in 2020.

- He plays because existing players are injured / hopelessly out of form.

He is a junior Ruckman who has much to learn about playing against the big boys.

 

Yeah,  seriously.  What the hell are you worried about old dee?  It's not like he's going to be broken in 2 in the big time. 

He also plays as the back-up ruckman ... it's either Jackson or Weideman as the other key forward and I only see Weideman as back-up right now.   And Weideman can't ruck.

I'd be getting games into Jackson whilst we're miles off being a contender.  Same for Pickett.

If we were a premiership threat then it's a different approach.  We'll be lucky to win 10 - 12 games next year though so it's time to develop players.

And the FF spot isn't really FF anymore.  Jackson could play as a tall key deep rotating elsewhere in the forward line as well as a few stints in the ruck and on the ball.

No time like the present.

We have drafted for position with all 3 draftees and that tells us a fair bit.  Goodwin's comment that Jackson could be a 200cm midfielder reveals a bit too (in terms of how he'll be used)

Time will tell.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Macca

[old dee 23,792]

12 minutes ago, Macca said:

Yeah,  seriously.  What the hell are you worried about old dee?  It's not like he's going to be broken in 2 in the big time. 

He also plays as the back-up ruckman ... it's either Jackson or Weideman as the other key forward and I only see Weideman as back-up right now.   And Weideman can't ruck.

I'd be getting games into Jackson whilst we're miles off being a contender.  Same for Pickett.

If we were a finals threat then it's a different approach.  We'll be lucky to win 10 games next year though so it's time to develop players.

And the FF spot isn't really FF anymore.  Jackson could play as a tall key deep rotating elsewhere in the forward line as well as a few stints in the ruck.

No time like the present.

We have drafted for position with all 3 draftees and that tells us a fair bit.  Goidwin's comment that Jackson could be a 200cm midfielder reveals a bit too (in terms of how he'll be used)

Time will tell.

Yes time will tell.

[Macca 16,972]

18 minutes ago, old dee said:

Yes time will tell.

It is not like we're going to ruin him if we play him from the word go.  All thoughts of Watts,  Cook & Weideman should be eliminated.

This bloke (Jackson) looks a lot different to other talls that we've drafted in the recent past.  Plus,  he's a ruckman. 

I reckon he's possibly/probably ready to go and we're only going to find that out if we play him straight off.  That doesn't mean that he won't need a spell after a time during his first year

And forget about what you and I might be thinking ... what about what Goodwin is thinking? 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Macca

[CBDees 3,167]

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

It is not like we're going to ruin him if we play him from the word go.  All thoughts of Watrs,  Cook & Weideman should be eliminated.

This bloke (Jackson) looks a lot different to other talls that we've drafted in the recent past.  Plus,  he's a ruckman. 

I reckon he's possibly/probably ready to go and we're only going to find that out if we play him straight off.  That doesn't mean that he won't need a spell after a time during his first year

And forget about what you and I might be thinking ... what about what Goodwin is thinking? 

We have three months of intense training before we have to select our round one team. I trust Goodwin and the selectors will put our best (fit) team on the park!

 

[Macca 16,972]

17 minutes ago, CBDees said:

We have three months of intense training before we have to select our round one team. I trust Goodwin and the selectors will put our best (fit) team on the park!

 

Best team (with an eye on the future) is my go-to measure.  But don't go overboard on youth as we have done previously.

You need a good mix but we can afford to play 2 or 3 youngsters as part of the 22 (right now,  all things considered)

[old55 23,590]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

 

If we were a premiership threat then it's a different approach.  We'll be lucky to win 10 - 12 games next year though so it's time to develop players.

I reckon you're in for a surprise.

[Macca 16,972]

47 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

I reckon you're in for a surprise.

If I was an optimist,  I wouldn't be surprised. 

And if I was a pessimist,  I'd be totally shocked if we were a genuine premiership threat next season.

Realists on the other hand are often boring but mostly right.  'old dee' for instance is a realist and he is often right with his views on the team.  I rarely argue with him

If we win more than 12 games I will be surprised.  But there's often a fine line between 10 & 14 wins so a plus and minus factor needs to be a caveat. 

To win more than 12 games we'll need to fix a variety of issues

• A lack of genuine leg speed around the ground and away from stoppages
• Disposal is often woeful including kicking to position,  targets or space
• Kicking for goal is also a huge problem that needs to be overcome
• A dysfunctional forward line devoid of real marking power and proper systems
• Clearance work that leaves a lot to be desired considering we have a dominant ruckman
• We also lack dash out of defence and we don't set up enough scoring opportunities from our defence
• 2nd & 3rd efforts are not of a great standard either (especially in comparison to the top sides)

It's all in front of us 55 ... anything is possible of course but we've got a lot to improve on if we're to become a genuine threat.

Right now,  I'd happily take 10-12 wins (for any number of reasons including not having to dispense with the coach)  My wish is finals but I'm a realist.

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by Macca

[Macca 16,972]

Weideman being tried down back has a bit of merit though @Fifty-5 

Possibly for similar reasoning re T-Mac in the forward line.  Again,  what have we got to lose with such a move as next season is probably make-or-break for Sam.  He's got to start making an impact otherwise he'll end up as back-up only.

Minding a man,  punching from behind and then running on to the ball then dishing off isn't all that complicated compared to the work involved to become a proper KPF.  It might just suit him.   Worth a try anyway

[rjay 24,928]

4 hours ago, old dee said:

I also understand his marking is average.

Looking at his highlights he is a very good mark.

I'm not sure where the average comments came from that you are quoting but I think they are well off the mark so to speak.

[rjay 24,928]

4 hours ago, Accepting Mediocrity said:

I'd love to hope so, but statistically it's unlikely. Even Curnow took until his 3rd year before he averaged more than 1 goal per game. 

The only 2m talls I can recall having any real impact early on were Joe Daniher and Ben King. Jackson looks an incredible athlete, but raw footballer to me. I'd be surprised if he cements his place in the team before the first 'Trade Jackson' thread crops up.

The great forwards/players show up early.

I reckon this kid has the makings and will be a player from the start.

[old dee 23,792]

10 hours ago, rjay said:

Looking at his highlights he is a very good mark.

I'm not sure where the average comments came from that you are quoting but I think they are well off the mark so to speak.

An example and I have seen others, Gary Buckenara said in yesterday's HUN review of this draft.

" He will need to improve his marking if he is going to play forward" and I have concerns over his ability to play as a marking forward" 

As Dees suporters we seem to constantly look for the messiah to lead us to the promised land and while it is early days this kid seems to be seen as the latest Messiah.

He has talent and I like everyone else on here hope he becomes a very good player for the MFC but let's not pretend that he is flawless and expect him to be playing round 2 in 2020.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2019 by old dee

[dazzledavey36 54,946]

15 minutes ago, old dee said:

An example and I have seen others, Gary Buckenara said in yesterday's HUN review of this draft.

" He will need to improve his marking if he is going to play forward" and I have concerns over his ability to play as a marking forward" 

As Dees suporters we seem to constantly look for the messiah to lead us to the promised land and while it is early days this kid seems to be seen as the latest Messiah.

He has talent and I like everyone else on here hope he becomes a very good player for the MFC but let's not pretend that he is flawless and expect him to be playing round 2 in 2020.

 

 

Your first mistake was taking anything Buckenara says serious. 

The guy is a drop kick. Go look at his highlights. His contested marking is one of his strengths.

[RDBhero 65]

On 11/29/2019 at 10:26 PM, A F said:

Agreed, but I think we need to get far more creative with our set up. Think Richmond 2017. Over a single pre season, they managed to completely rejig their forwardline and the only gun they had was Riewoldt, so they built around him, added Caddy and then a bunch of speedy contributors.

I'm not suggesting this is necessarily our best way forward (we don't have enough pace), but we certainly need to play to a better/different forward system. One that enables forwards to create space (and quick ball movement will help with this), but also enables us to play predictable football so that everyone is on the same page.

Including the opposition?

[old dee 23,792]

6 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Your first mistake was taking anything Buckenara says serious. 

The guy is a drop kick. Go look at his highlights. His contested marking is one of his strengths.

Guess what dd He knows a lot more than you and I put together. Other than a few highlights have you seen Jackson play? I sure haven't but I suggest Buckenara has and he has played the game at a very high level.

At this point I will take his word versus the hopes of Demonlanders looking for the lastest messiah. 

Having said all that I have nothing against Jackson I hope the kid turns into a great MFC player who helps us play in the GF in 2021. 

[dazzledavey36 54,946]

23 minutes ago, old dee said:

Guess what dd He knows a lot more than you and I put together. Other than a few highlights have you seen Jackson play? I sure haven't but I suggest Buckenara has and he has played the game at a very high level.

At this point I will take his word versus the hopes of Demonlanders looking for the lastest messiah. 

Having said all that I have nothing against Jackson I hope the kid turns into a great MFC player who helps us play in the GF in 2021. 

Does he?

You do realise this is the same bloke that rated Josh Wagner a better player then James Harmes in his recent club assessment. Him playing the game is completely irrelevant Old.. Stephen Wells never played an AFL game in his life and he's regarded as one of the best talent spotters in the country. 

I'm sorry but the bloke is clueless and outdated. 

[old dee 23,792]

10 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Does he?

You do realise this is the same bloke that rated Josh Wagner a better player then James Harmes in his recent club assessment. Him playing the game is completely irrelevant Old.. Stephen Wells never played an AFL game in his life and he's regarded as one of the best talent spotters in the country. 

I'm sorry but the bloke is clueless and outdated. 

We all have our opinions dd. 

I just don't believe Jackson is the Messiah. He is a ruckman who we all hope can make it as good forward. But I rail against talk that he should be playing round 2. He is a kid who will be learning the game at senior level the next couple of years. To expect him to haul the forward line up to finals in 2020 is folly.

[dazzledavey36 54,946]

9 minutes ago, old dee said:

We all have our opinions dd. 

I just don't believe Jackson is the Messiah. He is a ruckman who we all hope can make it as good forward. But I rail against talk that he should be playing round 2. He is a kid who will be learning the game at senior level the next couple of years. To expect him to haul the forward line up to finals in 2020 is folly.

I don't think anyone on here has painted him as the messiah though old? We know he's coming with a fair bit of development to do. But as Jason Taylor has said, we shouldn't put a cap on him yet. I honestly think he'll play round 1 next year. He's development in the past 18 months has been at a rapid rate and I think now that he's in a full time environment under the guidance of Max Gawn, he'll develop quite significantly over the next few months.

He's not like a Jack Watts who was just all bones and let's be honest he was quite soft from day dot. Jackson is aggressive and not afraid at all to get in and get his hands dirty. Gawn and Pruess pushing him around at training will only further this even more.

I am predicting 10-12 games next year from Jackson playing mostly up forward.

[rjay 24,928]

14 minutes ago, old dee said:

We all have our opinions dd. 

I just don't believe Jackson is the Messiah. He is a ruckman who we all hope can make it as good forward. But I rail against talk that he should be playing round 2. He is a kid who will be learning the game at senior level the next couple of years. To expect him to haul the forward line up to finals in 2020 is folly.

I don't think anyone is saying he is the messiah 'old'...

...but with a better season from Tommy Mac, the realisation that Fritsch is a forward, a fit Melk, a fitterTrac and the rotations through the mids the addition of Jackson and Pickett can round things out, give us a bit more balance.

He doesn't need to star just play his role and it improves our forward half markedly.

[JakovichScissorKick 771]

3 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I don't think anyone on here has painted him as the messiah though old?

Havent seen one person even allude to LJ being the 'messiah' for us,  not sure what OD is on about.  

I just see a lot of cautious optimism.

Edited November 30, 2019 by JakovichScissorKick

[Watson11 2,240]

9 minutes ago, old dee said:

We all have our opinions dd. 

I just don't believe Jackson is the Messiah. He is a ruckman who we all hope can make it as good forward. But I rail against talk that he should be playing round 2. He is a kid who will be learning the game at senior level the next couple of years. To expect him to haul the forward line up to finals in 2020 is folly.

Is anyone thinking he is the messiah? I’m not sure anyone would think he could do anything other than play a role.  But hey, wouldn’t it be great if we had a forward 6 who all knew what their role was and played it.

There are a few articles written around the draft combine time by Cal Twomey and others that said Jackson would be ready to play round 1. And if he plays forward it will be to play a role which hopefully includes bringing the ball to ground, competing for ground balls so it isn’t waltzed up the other end for a goal like last year, and improving our forward 50 stoppages.  His recovery, ground balls, and clearance work seem to be a strength.

He is an athlete though. Very quick, good leap, and really good endurance. But whether he can read the play well enough to play forward in his first year and do a role remains to be seen.  It will be a bonus if he can.

[Go the Biff 3,432]

31 minutes ago, old dee said:

We all have our opinions dd. 

I just don't believe Jackson is the Messiah. He is a ruckman who we all hope can make it as good forward. But I rail against talk that he should be playing round 2. He is a kid who will be learning the game at senior level the next couple of years. To expect him to haul the forward line up to finals in 2020 is folly.

I think the first person to put messiah and Jackson in the same post is you mate. I haven't read anyone here suggesting Jackson is going to put the club on his back and lead us to the promised land. The post above from Watson11 is more typical

With regard to the Buckenara article, in another thread experienced poster Prodee has highlighted examples of why Buckenara's analysis should be treated with caution - if not disdain

I think this kid will be fun to watch old dee, sooner rather than later so strap yourself in and enjoy the ride

[Macca 16,972]

2 hours ago, old dee said:

As Dees suporters we seem to constantly look for the messiah to lead us to the promised land and while it is early days this kid seems to be seen as the latest Messiah.

The messiah attitude can be a thing but not in this thread at least. 

From my point of view I've got Jackson in the forward line instead of Weideman and he can also ruck for 10% - 15% of the game.

There are at least 6 or 7 other forwards rotating through and the expectations are equal for all of them.  Same for all members of the team in fact.

And it won't matter when he makes his debut ... there will be hype.  Probably better to get it out of the way (done quietly with zero fanfare)

Besides all that if he's best* 22 play the bloke.  It's just 1 spot in the team.  Pickett is in my team early as well mainly because the other small forward options aren't much chop.  Rivers can also force the selectors hand early as well if his training form warrants a spot in the starting 22. 

 

*My best 22 nearly always means with a bit of an eye on the future.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Macca