2 minutes ago, Deespicable said:

then it's worth considering and taking a rational path and plan.

The other factor to consider is that Freo, as Kingy mentions, has a pick that would go some way to meet our requirements - pick 6 or 7.

 

 

Really good post.

The key word there is RATIONAL. It's not just Jesse. They should be considering player values from the top of the list down. Every player has a price, as they say. What I object to is fairweather supporters who call for his trade after one bad performance, as though he's not a huge part of making finals this year. He's shown virtually no sign of wanting to go home. The only question mark was when he signed his last contract, where he said he considered it but knew he couldn't leave the club in the state it's in. We really are a destination club.

So yes, always field offers. What if you get a Godfather offer? What if it was something ridiculous like Lynch and a first rounder? They'd be mad not to have some serious meetings about that. Overall though, if you DO take a rational approach, Hogan is probably second only to Lynch in the pecking order of the young KP forwards going round in the game right now. You don't SEEK to trade a guy like that. If he comes to you and says I need to go home, then fair enough... but that's different. That's damage control.

Your second point I quoted above... I'd just point out... If Lever is worth back-to-back first rounders, then Hogan is CERTAINLY worth the same. He's a forward, and he's a better player. Lever was pick 10 last year and pick 11 (or later depending on how well we do) this year. If Freo offered 6/7ish pick... they'd better throw in a LOT more.

9 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

We play a different style of game when Jesse isn’t there. 

I would be playing him in the backline next year at CHB/HBF. He is very mobile and could be very useful

I actually agree with you for once, no harm to try it especially during the practice games.

1 minute ago, drysdale demon said:

I actually agree with you for once, no harm to try it especially during the practice games.

He has played in defence before and always done a good job. 

He can’t take pack marks so any decent team can easily nullify him up forward

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

He can’t take pack marks so any decent team can easily nullify him up forward

Sorry to butt in to your discussion... but where has this come from?

He was taking pack marks game in game out his first few seasons. This year he's been playing up the ground, and hasn't been able to jump or lead at a ball since the bye. He's been cleaning up 3 players in packs and bringing the ball to ground since he debuted 4 years ago. Have people completely forgotten?

Also, yes, I'd like to see him wander to the part of the ground he's needed in the most. If you take a close look he has a serious claim to being our best field kick.

Edited August 20, 20186 yr by Dappa Dan

1 minute ago, Dappa Dan said:

Sorry to butt in to your discussion... but where has this come from?

He was taking pack marks game in game out his first few seasons. This year he's been playing up the ground, and hasn't been able to jump or lead at a ball since the bye. He's been cleaning up 3 players in packs and bringing the ball to ground since he debuted 4 years ago. Have people completely forgotten?

He’s been worked out by opposing coaches. 

He would be a far better sweeper off half back I believe. 

I don’t want to trade him, but against the Top Sides he is quiet up forward

Does anyone know what he's doing at the moment and anything about his injury ongoing?

Just now, Sir Why You Little said:

He’s been worked out by opposing coaches. 

He would be a far better sweeper off half back I believe. 

I don’t want to trade him, but against the Top Sides he is quiet up forward

Yeah. I've been having this discussion all week it seems.

Have to agree to disagree of course, but if "working out" a forward, he still is in the top 5 in the Coleman the whole season, then I'll take that. And a lot of this "he's been worked out" stuff has come since he hurt his foot. Before that he was smashing everyone. And anyway, do you think they won't work out Weed and TMac? Both aren't nearly as versatile as Jesse.

As you say, no need to trade him, but I'd love to see him wander far and wide. He's so good at all facets of the game, even when the ball hits the deck and he needs to evade/deliver to a team mate under pressure. That skill is so hard to find, especially at demons where we still want for skills. Get him where he can get 25+ touches regularly and watch him HURT teams. If he turned into a rich man's Tom Lynch (Adelaide version) I'd be pumped.

1 minute ago, Dappa Dan said:

Yeah. I've been having this discussion all week it seems.

Have to agree to disagree of course, but if "working out" a forward, he still is in the top 5 in the Coleman the whole season, then I'll take that. And a lot of this "he's been worked out" stuff has come since he hurt his foot. Before that he was smashing everyone. And anyway, do you think they won't work out Weed and TMac? Both aren't nearly as versatile as Jesse.

As you say, no need to trade him, but I'd love to see him wander far and wide. He's so good at all facets of the game, even when the ball hits the deck and he needs to evade/deliver to a team mate under pressure. That skill is so hard to find, especially at demons where we still want for skills. Get him where he can get 25+ touches regularly and watch him HURT teams. If he turned into a rich man's Tom Lynch (Adelaide version) I'd be pumped.

To wander far and wide is exactly what i mean DD

To me he is like a big cat in a cage in the fwd line. 

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

To wander far and wide is exactly what i mean DD

To me he is like a big cat in a cage in the fwd line. 

Yeah and then he sort of sooks when he's had bad delivery. TMac, him and Gawn rotating through the forward line is a coach's dream.

Just now, Dappa Dan said:

Yeah and then he sort of sooks when he's had bad delivery. TMac, him and Gawn rotating through the forward line is a coach's dream.

A midfield under pressure cannot always guarantee delivery. A good forward has to be ready for the hard ball

5 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

A midfield under pressure cannot always guarantee delivery. A good forward has to be ready for the hard ball

Jesse has no problem with a hard ball. What I'd like to see him eradicate completely is him appealing to umpires while the ball is still live.

17 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

Sorry to butt in to your discussion... but where has this come from?

He was taking pack marks game in game out his first few seasons. This year he's been playing up the ground, and hasn't been able to jump or lead at a ball since the bye. He's been cleaning up 3 players in packs and bringing the ball to ground since he debuted 4 years ago. Have people completely forgotten?

Also, yes, I'd like to see him wander to the part of the ground he's needed in the most. If you take a close look he has a serious claim to being our best field kick.

Agree largely - except for him being near our best field kick. I reckon he is actually pretty average as filed. kick. When i listed the players who i think are above average kicks (only 12 in total) he was not one of them. Tries too many cute stabby kicks.

Hogan is a gun and will be scary over the next few years as he gets stronger. Hawkins is a good comparison i reckon 

9 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

Jesse has no problem with a hard ball. What I'd like to see him eradicate completely is him appealing to umpires while the ball is still live.

He is still learning, which is why i believe we may not have found his best position yet

8 minutes ago, binman said:

Agree largely - except for him being near our best field kick. I reckon he is actually pretty average as filed. kick. When i listed the players who i think are above average kicks (only 12 in total) he was not one of them. Tries too many cute stabby kicks.

Hogan is a gun and will be scary over the next few years as he gets stronger. Hawkins is a good comparison i reckon 

I was with you when my brother suggested it halfway through last year, and I laughed in his face. So we took a closer look and I have to say... he's made an absolute fool out of me. But we all see the game differently. We could come back to this later in his career. There actually isn't too much data to go off as far as his field kicking goes.

If Fremantle offered pick 7 and say Adam cerra. And hogan was unsure about staying on beyond next year I think it at least is worth a thought. 

I think he will be a demon long term and it’ll be a non issue but if hogan were genuinely unsure and even likely to leave I think we are In a position where making the move a year early and getting a good return is worth consideration 

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

We play a different style of game when Jesse isn’t there. 

I would be playing him in the backline next year at CHB/HBF. He is very mobile and could be very useful

I was thinking this also. Play Weid/TMac up forward and Lever, OMac & Hogan in he backline.

That is easily the best group of KPP in one side.

1 minute ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

I was thinking this also. Play Weid/TMac up forward and Lever, OMac & Hogan in he backline.

That is easily the best group of KPP in one side.

Jesse reads the game better than anyone else on our list by a mile. It’s certainly worth trying 

1 minute ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

I was thinking this also. Play Weid/TMac up forward and Lever, OMac & Hogan in he backline.

That is easily the best group of KPP in one side.

The Colonel could become very damaging running off half back

Next year will be interesting

1 hour ago, Dappa Dan said:

What I object to is fairweather supporters who call for his trade after one bad performance,

How do you know fairweather supporters,,, have a sudden urge after one (in your words, 'bad performance').  Are you assuming again DD?

31 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

If Fremantle offered pick 7 and say Adam cerra. And hogan was unsure about staying on beyond next year I think it at least is worth a thought. 

I think he will be a demon long term and it’ll be a non issue but if hogan were genuinely unsure and even likely to leave I think we are In a position where making the move a year early and getting a good return is worth consideration 

I wouldn't shop Hogan around, but if he asked and that was the offer... we'd be mad not to take it.

 

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

He’s been worked out by opposing coaches. 

He would be a far better sweeper off half back I believe. 

I don’t want to trade him, but against the Top Sides he is quiet up forward

Bit hard for him when he has a minimum of two opponents and we bomb the ball in to him, instead of kicking it to his advantage.

Perfect example was the Heeney mark, where Pedo kicked it over his head as he led out. Put the ball in front of him and he marks and has a shot for goal.

Jesse is an extremely talented player and will be part of our next flag attempt.

Hopefully we bring in more skill to deliver the ball properly and give him and the other forwards more chances to score.

8 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Bit hard for him when he has a minimum of two opponents and we bomb the ball in to him, instead of kicking it to his advantage.

Perfect example was the Heeney mark, where Pedo kicked it over his head as he led out. Put the ball in front of him and he marks and has a shot for goal.

Jesse is an extremely talented player and will be part of our next flag attempt.

Hopefully we bring in more skill to deliver the ball properly and give him and the other forwards more chances to score.

He will always be double and triple teamed. That’s my point. 

Will be interesting next year to see how the fwd line is structured 

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

He can’t take pack marks so any decent team can easily nullify him up forward

He can take pack marks, swyl...  but mostly, he needs a run and jump to do it.

Playing one out deep isn't Jesse's best option.   They double team him, and edge him under the ball.  especially when we bomb it in.

High ball marks aren't his strength.

58 minutes ago, binman said:

Agree largely - except for him being near our best field kick. I reckon he is actually pretty average as filed. kick. When i listed the players who i think are above average kicks (only 12 in total) he was not one of them. Tries too many cute stabby kicks.

Hogan is a gun and will be scary over the next few years as he gets stronger. Hawkins is a good comparison i reckon 

I'd be hoping the Nick Reiwolt is a better comparison in the long run, Hawkins does all his damage in the forward 50, but while Hoges isn't the worlds best field kick, his work rate will destroy some opponents and then can still get into goal scoring positions himself. 

He'll demand a tall back to go with him, so if he can run up and connect with the backs then get back to try and score will be very dangerous, especially as when he needs to rest TMac can do the same, Melk could do similar. Plus with a couple of minutes to go in each quarter they could drop into the back 50 to stop any scores.

Wait until we've got a forward line of Hoges, TMac, Weid, Melk and 3 of ANB, Kent, Spargo, Hannan, Garlett or JHK and they've had a full preseason together to work out how not to get in each other's way. 

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

We play a different style of game when Jesse isn’t there. 

I would be playing him in the backline next year at CHB/HBF. He is very mobile and could be very useful

We certainly do.

In fact the 'elephant' of questions is: do we set up and play better without him ?

I know such a notion is heresy among some but it's certainly crossed my mind.

So just for a moment if we put aside the debate of whether he's good bad or otherwise do we simply play a more winning style without Jesse ? Had he been available where would he have played yesterday...and to what benefit ?  Bit of a sliding doors conundrum.