On 14/10/2018 at 00:04, A F said:

Sort of. For the first five minutes or so.

 

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:06, Diamond_Jim said:

was it that long

Nup. Don’t remember it.

We beat Hawthorn, waited a week for something, I think Neil Mitchell was there for some reason... and then a bright blinding light...

Woke up at the steps of the Demonland pub at the start of the trade period...

 

Comparing May and Oscar is not valid.  Oscar is 22, the valid comparison is May at 22 in 2014 with Oscar now.  Oscar is on a steep improvement curve year on year and will become a very strong all round defender.

Omac has a high ceiling. Although he has bad days his path is inclining.

Omac and Frost should be battling it out for the second KPB in the 22. We don't have time to wait for Oscar to develop into a powerful player.

I've been a supporter of his in the past, but his pace and ability on the lead is a concern.

If he gets the second best forward, he's a much better chance of neutralizing them.

Also, should we get May, the overwhelming likelihood is that Oscar and May play in the same team. 

It isn't one or the other.

Edited October 14, 20186 yr by Axis of Bob

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:14, Fifty-5 said:

Comparing May and Oscar is not valid.  Oscar is 22, the valid comparison is May at 22 in 2014 with Oscar now.  Oscar is on a steep improvement curve year on year and will become a very strong all round defender.

I agree, but our window has opened a year or two earlier than I expected and Omac isn't there yet. A decision needs to be made on who we bring in to play full back. 

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:19, A F said:

I agree, but our window has opened a year or two earlier than I expected and Omac isn't there yet. A decision needs to be made on who we bring in to play full back. 

How would you compare Oscar to, say, Nathan Broad or David Astbury?

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:19, A F said:

I agree, but our window has opened a year or two earlier than I expected and Omac isn't there yet. A decision needs to be made on who we bring in to play full back. 

Yes OMac's improvement curve is pretty steep and he seems very coachable.  I expect him to take another leap in 2019.

Lever in the side will make him better still and we'll either have May or Hogan back there too.

I'm excited at the prospects for improvement.

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:22, Axis of Bob said:

How would you compare Oscar to, say, Nathan Broad or David Astbury?

Pretty similar mate. The key to their play is Rance though and continuity together.

Lever not playing this year hurt Omac. No doubt about it.

Oscar was looking impressive early in the year, but my reading on our ideal set up (perhaps born out of necessity with Lever's injury and the evolving nature of the game with the return of the power forwards at WC) is that we want to play two KPBs (May and one of Frost or Omac), one main interceptor (Lever), a small lock down defender (Jetta) and two rebounding kicking defenders (out of Hibberd, Salem, Lewis and at this point Smith).

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:07, A F said:

Well, hang on. When Hawkins got ahold of Omac, was it our midfield or Hawkins that day? Or are you picking and choosing? And what happened on QBD? Did we try to out position or out body Cox or did we simply let him jump at everything?

Honestly,  when Hawkins kicked 7, that was midfield/coaching. Geelong opened the space up around Hawkins to leave him isolated with plenty of room to run into. He did and took repeated uncontested marks on leads with good delivery.  Most forwards would have dominated.  It was Pagans Paddock football. 

We should have either told our defenders to protect the space or shifted Frost (with his faster closing speed) onto him earlier. 

Instead Goodwin backed our team to work to our structure and regain ascendency through playing our game.  A noble sentiment, and an ability that we need if we want to become a long term dominant team (because if we react instead of sticking to our plan we will constantly play catch up/reactive footy), but it wasn't the right call on the day.  The coaches got the balance wing and should have pulled the trigger earlier. 

 

I can't remember the specifics of QBD but remember that we lost thur midfield battle and got opened up on the rebound in particular when they got the ball "out the back" with our mids not running defensively as hard as they can. But I just watched the "Cox kicks 5 goals" video on the AFL app. He is playing in the ruck a lot of the time and it is clear his direct opponent for each of the 5 goals are:

Joel Smith (I think could be Hibberd), Pedersen, Gawn, Omac, then J Smith. 

The OMac goal is a one on one mark where the ball sits on his head and he uses his height advantage.  I'd expect him to take it every time but Id also expect one of our other defenders to get there and spoil given their proximity. 

The other four goals are: on the lead into space, a ground ball pick up in the ruck, running back towards goal after a midfield turnover, and again on the lead into space. 

In none of those occasions was our no 1 defender playing on him, on all four he had space due to lack of midfield pressure,  and I'm not sure that May could have stopped any of them anymore than OMac could have. 

A reasonable analysis?

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:35, A F said:

Pretty similar mate. The key to their play is Rance though and continuity together.

Lever not playing this year hurt Omac. No doubt about it.

Exactly, it's about the system rather than people playing man on man.

Oscar, like the Richmond players or Schofield at WC, is there to provide body contact to stop players jumping at the ball. May comes in to provide flexibility as he will monster second forwards (like Rance) and is a capable rebounder. 

We don't need a full back, we need a marking second tall defender.

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:35, A F said:

Pretty similar mate. The key to their play is Rance though and continuity together.

Lever not playing this year hurt Omac. No doubt about it.

Oscar was looking impressive early in the year, but my reading on our ideal set up (perhaps born out of necessity with Lever's injury and the evolving nature of the game with the return of the power forwards at WC) is that we want to play two KPBs (May and one of Frost or Omac), one main interceptor (Lever), a small lock down defender (Jetta) and two rebounding kicking defenders (out of Hibberd, Salem, Lewis and at this point Smith).

I reckon this is spot on. With one small change: I think Smith's role is actually the same as Lever but given Lewis's age, he'll probably play the rebounding defender role. Also if Hogan does ever play back,  I see him playing the rebounding role despite his size, purely because of his work rate, endurance and beautiful field kicking. 

 

If we land May there will be some very disappointed Demonlanders when OMac still gets a game!

This is perhaps further evidenced by the reluctance to play Frost.

What do we do with Frost if May comes in? Can we reinvent him as a HBF or winger?

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:41, deanox said:

Honestly,  when Hawkins kicked 7, that was midfield/coaching. Geelong opened the space up around Hawkins to leave him isolated with plenty of room to run into. He did and took repeated uncontested marks on leads with good delivery.  Most forwards would have dominated.  It was Pagans Paddock football. 

We should have either told our defenders to protect the space or shifted Frost (with his faster closing speed) onto him earlier. 

Instead Goodwin backed our team to work to our structure and regain ascendency through playing our game.  A noble sentiment, and an ability that we need if we want to become a long term dominant team (because if we react instead of sticking to our plan we will constantly play catch up/reactive footy), but it wasn't the right call on the day.  The coaches got the balance wing and should have pulled the trigger earlier. 

 

I can't remember the specifics of QBD but remember that we lost thur midfield battle and got opened up on the rebound in particular when they got the ball "out the back" with our mids not running defensively as hard as they can. But I just watched the "Cox kicks 5 goals" video on the AFL app. He is playing in the ruck a lot of the time and it is clear his direct opponent for each of the 5 goals are:

Joel Smith (I think could be Hibberd), Pedersen, Gawn, Omac, then J Smith. 

The OMac goal is a one on one mark where the ball sits on his head and he uses his height advantage.  I'd expect him to take it every time but Id also expect one of our other defenders to get there and spoil given their proximity. 

The other four goals are: on the lead into space, a ground ball pick up in the ruck, running back towards goal after a midfield turnover, and again on the lead into space. 

In none of those occasions was our no 1 defender playing on him, on all four he had space due to lack of midfield pressure,  and I'm not sure that May could have stopped any of them anymore than OMac could have. 

A reasonable analysis?

Yep, I was at that game too and it was obvious early in the 4th after Hawkins kicked his second for the term that Frost should have been moved on to him. Instead, we waited for a third before making the switch and after that Hawkins didn't really get a look in, but the damage was done.

That says a bit about Omac though. 

I completely agree with the view RE the lack of midfield pressure leading to easy goals against us. Of course. That's modern footy. My issue with our defence is that Jetta and Hibberd are strong one on one defenders. Lever is a terrific interceptor and Salem is a beautiful kick. The obvious weak area is lock down KPD role. At this stage in our development as a group, May is a better bet than Frost or Oscar. 

at the end of the day, if we get May i dont want to see any of oscar mcdonald in 2019

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:17, Axis of Bob said:

Also, should we get May, the overwhelming likelihood is that Oscar and May play in the same team. 

It isn't one or the other.

 

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:23, Fifty-5 said:

Yes OMac's improvement curve is pretty steep and he seems very coachable.  I expect him to take another leap in 2019.

Lever in the side will make him better still and we'll either have May or Hogan back there too.

I'm excited at the prospects for improvement.

 

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:46, deanox said:

If we land May there will be some very disappointed Demonlanders when OMac still gets a game!

This is perhaps further evidenced by the reluctance to play Frost.

What do we do with Frost if May comes in? Can we reinvent him as a HBF or winger?

Without turning this into a 'Where is Oscar at thread?' I am reluctant to embrace Oscar and I have to remember occasionally that his improvement year to year is ahead of the curve for a tall defender and that he had a good season on a good side and he definitely has a future as a big lump to play on a big lump that will define the new era of the 6-6-6 set up.

With my coaching hat on: Oscar takes the ubiquitous 2nd ruck, May takes the best tall forward, and Lever/Hibberd share the third/fourth 'talls' and try to allow Lever to help May and Oscar. Frost would be competing with May and in that scenario and May is the better defender.

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:41, Axis of Bob said:

Exactly, it's about the system rather than people playing man on man.

Oscar, like the Richmond players or Schofield at WC, is there to provide body contact to stop players jumping at the ball. May comes in to provide flexibility as he will monster second forwards (like Rance) and is a capable rebounder. 

We don't need a full back, we need a marking second tall defender.

Well see for mine, May brings the two strongest attributes of Frost (his closing speed) and Oscar (his solid kicking) and combines them into the one player. We can then afford Frost or Omac to play that other marking second tall as you call them - I'd just call them the old fashioned second KPB.

Oscar plays off scratch and recently won the AFL longest drive comp with a drive of 292m. What is May’s handicap that’s what I need to know! 

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:46, deanox said:

I reckon this is spot on. With one small change: I think Smith's role is actually the same as Lever but given Lewis's age, he'll probably play the rebounding defender role. Also if Hogan does ever play back,  I see him playing the rebounding role despite his size, purely because of his work rate, endurance and beautiful field kicking. 

 

If we land May there will be some very disappointed Demonlanders when OMac still gets a game!

This is perhaps further evidenced by the reluctance to play Frost.

What do we do with Frost if May comes in? Can we reinvent him as a HBF or winger?

I reckon Frost stays as depth KPB. But I still view this as a horses for courses decision. The size of the opposition's forwardline and its agility would effect who we go with out of Omac and Frost.

Agile forwardlines are not Omac's go, but smart agile forwards often catch Frost out, so there's certainly a nuance to selection.

Edited October 14, 20186 yr by A F

  On 13/10/2018 at 23:34, Dr.D said:

Are you saying that Oscar Mcdonald is better than May? lol. please not be serious

Our whole defensive structure and game plan is to dominate the midfield so we don't ever leave Oscar Mcdonald 1 out. I swear anytime he is left 1 on 1 he gets pushed out of the contest with ease. 

When the midfield is flogged, every full back in the league looks poor.

Rance v Cox in the PF, or perhaps more tellingly May vs Riewoldt in Round 21 10 goals 6 behinds.

No full back, not even the now legendary Steven May, can hold off a genuinely good FF when their midfield is brining the ball in with ease.

 

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:57, Dr.D said:

at the end of the day, if we get May i dont want to see any of oscar mcdonald in 2019

It must be challenging to live with disappointment year on year.

  On 13/10/2018 at 23:46, Red and Blue realist said:

May had a tour with the western Bulldogs this week, so clearly is looking at other options. Also the longer it goes the more likely the GCS will hold him to his contact because they will want to plan things with the other picks they have, currently they have 5 picks under 30, and might look to upgrade or move some of the latter ones.

I didn't know that May had toured the Dogs facilities. Are you sure of that?

  On 14/10/2018 at 00:57, Dr.D said:

at the end of the day, if we get May i dont want to see any of oscar mcdonald in 2019

Well then you better follow another team.

  On 14/10/2018 at 01:04, Earl Hood said:

Oscar plays off scratch and recently won the AFL longest drive comp with a drive of 292m. What is May’s handicap that’s what I need to know! 

Just by the way, Oscar's field kicking is actually very good. He does what his brother couldn't do in the backline, kick to a team mate.

  On 13/10/2018 at 23:59, demon191919 said:

I disagree with this. Gold Coast are in a rebuild and they won't want a player who's on a high salary remaining at the club when they know he wants to move on and will do so regardless as a FA next year. 

Yes, but they'll get a very high pick next year if they keep him, and have a number of high picks already. I think they'll love pick 5 as well, but won't have much use for the later 20s picks they've got so might try and move them up this year. But they need time to work through that

  On 14/10/2018 at 01:56, Redleg said:

I didn't know that May had toured the Dogs facilities. Are you sure of that?

It got reported on Friday that he had, if they lose Adams they might put their hands up. They'd have the currency and cap space.