I'm not sure what Jonesy's answer to the question is.

54 minutes ago, Demonland said:

I'm not sure what Jonesy's answer to the question is.

The club has raised the bar. 

Finally...

On 01/03/2017 at 8:44 AM, ManDee said:

DD, the following is a list of draft dissapointments, Jack Watts is not one of them

Jim Toumpas    Pick 4   2012    Not up to it

Lucas Cook      Pick 12  2010   No desire

Jack Trengove  Pick 2  2009   Injuries

Tom Scully        Pick 1 2009    Liar

Sam Blease      Pick 17 2009   Leg + ??

Cale Morton      Pick  4  2008   Ticker

Daniel Bell        Pick 14 2002    Concusssions

Nick Smith         Pick 15 2002    ?

Luke Molan       Pick  9 2001    Injuries? 

2003 

McLean & Sylvia

Toumpas is the one I still don't get.

21 hours ago, ProDee said:

No.  My disappointment is based on output.

One good year in 8.

A horrible disappointment.

No. Your disappointment is based on output as compared to your far-fetched hopes. That you can’t see it is your fault, not Jack’s.

1 hour ago, Chook said:

No. Your disappointment is based on output as compared to your far-fetched hopes. That you can’t see it is your fault, not Jack’s.

Far-fetched hopes ?  That's a laugh.  

What, you mean hopes that he wouldn't avoid marking contests, avoid putting your body on the line, avoid half-hearted efforts ?  Perhaps avoid getting dropped twice in his 7th year ?

I'm convinced that 90% of this site are clueless about the actual game of footy.  I have no problem with that, btw, but don't ever suggest one good year in 8 is acceptable.

Or perhaps you can list the years you found were a pass mark ?

No-one was happier than me that he finally had a decent year, but even then it wasn't this earth-shattering year send down by the Gods.  It was a year he should at least meet from here on and in reality exceed.

48 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I'm convinced that 90% of this site is clueless about the actual game of footy.  I have no problem with that, btw, but don't ever suggest one good year in 8 is acceptable

Only 90%, I though it it would be 99.99% and guess who the 0.01% was

Watts has been a victim of circumstances, watched a number of games over the last few years, where he got into the same spaces as he did last year, and the other players, either didn't see him, kicked it over his head, at this feet etc etc,

The only weakness that  Watts has consistently displayed, and one which is all agree on, is his intensity during periods in games, this is the only question mark he has over him and Goodwin has shown him in no uncertain terms that this is unacceptable

If he can fix this, we will have an even better player than we had last year

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

Far-fetched hopes ?  That's a laugh.  

What, you mean hopes that he wouldn't avoid marking contests, avoid not putting your body on the line, avoid half-hearted efforts ?  Perhaps avoid getting dropped twice in his 7th year ?

I'm convinced that 90% of this site is clueless about the actual game of footy.  I have no problem with that, btw, but don't ever suggest one good year in 8 is acceptable.

Or perhaps you can list the years you found were a pass mark ?

No-one was happier than me that he finally had a decent year, but even then it wasn't this earth-shattering year send down by the Gods.  It was a year he should at least meet from here on and in reality exceed.

Throughout his career, Jack Watts has averaged per game*:

• 6 marks, which places him 50th as compared to the 2016 average marks-per-game by player**
• 1 goal (top 100***)
• 2 tackles per game (way out of the top 100, and I’m betting it’s one of Simon Goodwin’s major reasons for dropping him)
• 16 possessions (not playing as a midfielder, mind you).

Those last two stats aren’t great, I’ll admit; but they’re solid. That’s what Jack Watts has been: solid. If that’s disappointing for you, then you need to work that out in your own brain. No one else can resolve that disappointment for you.

 

* http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-melbourne-demons--jack-watts

** http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2016&rt=LA&st=MA

*** http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2016&rt=LA&st=GO

22 minutes ago, Chook said:

Throughout his career, Jack Watts has averaged per game*:

• 6 marks, which places him 50th as compared to the 2016 average marks-per-game by player**
• 1 goal (top 100***)
• 2 tackles per game (way out of the top 100, and I’m betting it’s one of Simon Goodwin’s major reasons for dropping him)
• 16 possessions (not playing as a midfielder, mind you).

Those last two stats aren’t great, I’ll admit; but they’re solid. That’s what Jack Watts has been: solid. If that’s disappointing for you, then you need to work that out in your own brain. No one else can resolve that disappointment for you.

 

* http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-melbourne-demons--jack-watts

** http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2016&rt=LA&st=MA

*** http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2016&rt=LA&st=GO

"Solid" ?

Horrible mate.

Look, let's not have a tennis match.  My views have been unambiguous for many many years. 

You're happy with what we've reaped and I'm bitterly disappointed.

If I get a chance I'll check out some other duds with similar stats.

Btw, if he replicates 2017 for the next 7 years naturally I'll take it.  

I think Goodwin will make him a better player and render the stats you've just quoted to be seen as the ordinary ones they are.

31 minutes ago, Chook said:

Throughout his career, Jack Watts has averaged per game*:

• 6 marks, which places him 50th as compared to the 2016 average marks-per-game by player**
• 1 goal (top 100***)
• 2 tackles per game (way out of the top 100, and I’m betting it’s one of Simon Goodwin’s major reasons for dropping him)
• 16 possessions (not playing as a midfielder, mind you).

Those last two stats aren’t great, I’ll admit; but they’re solid. That’s what Jack Watts has been: solid. If that’s disappointing for you, then you need to work that out in your own brain. No one else can resolve that disappointment for you.

 

* http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-melbourne-demons--jack-watts

** http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2016&rt=LA&st=MA

*** http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2016&rt=LA&st=GO

2 tackles per game says it all and is nowhere near solid

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

"Solid" ?

Horrible mate.

Look, let's not have a tennis match.  My views have been unambiguous for many many years. 

You're happy with what we've reaped and I'm bitterly disappointed.

If I get a chance I'll check out some other duds with similar stats.

Btw, if he replicates 2017 for the next 7 years naturally I'll take it.  

I think Goodwin will make him a better player and render the stats you've just quoted to be seen as the ordinary ones they are.

 

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

2 tackles per game says it all and is nowhere near solid

I don’t know what you blokes want. He’s been dropped; obviously he has things to work on. To say he’s been “disappointing” is a subjective statement that depends entirely upon how high you hoped he’d go. To say otherwise is to say your opinion is objective fact. Sorry to break it to you, but it’s not.

10 minutes ago, Chook said:

 

I don’t know what you blokes want. He’s been dropped; obviously he has things to work on. To say he’s been “disappointing” is a subjective statement that depends entirely upon how high you hoped he’d go. To say otherwise is to say your opinion is objective fact. Sorry to break it to you, but it’s not.

No you are wrong. It shows where the club has been during the past decade. 

Before the standards were lower or let's say Flexible. Now a high standard is the bare minimum

Why is it so hard to work out?

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

2 tackles per game says it all and is nowhere near solid

Hogan only averaged 1.4 in 2016. How many do you think a tall forward who's 196cm is expected to make? They're not all midfielders.

1 minute ago, demon9 said:

Hogan only averaged 1.4 in 2016. How many do you think a tall forward who's 196cm is expected to make? They're not all midfielders.

A decent team should expect 3-4 on average i would hope 

offensive pressure has never been a big MFC trait

We know things need to change

25 minutes ago, Chook said:

 

I don’t know what you blokes want. He’s been dropped; obviously he has things to work on. To say he’s been “disappointing” is a subjective statement that depends entirely upon how high you hoped he’d go. To say otherwise is to say your opinion is objective fact. Sorry to break it to you, but it’s not.

I  wanted a star, but got a tease.

I'll never divorce expectations from his draft pick.  You can please yourself. 

Judd, Hodge, Roughead, Franklin, Pendlebury, Riewoldt, Bontempelli, Bartel, Selwood - all top 10 draft picks, all stars, and all bar one premiership players. 

There are never guarantees, as we especially know, but to suggest my disappointment is based on far-fetched expectations is nuts.  Clubs expect a star with pick one, we got a dud.  It happens, but don't say the problem is my skewed opinion of what he should have been.  It's what the club and everyone wanted.

Some, like you, must be so vague in what you expect you're not disappointed by anything.  No problem, but accept some of us are on a different journey. 

44 minutes ago, Chook said:

 

I don’t know what you blokes want. He’s been dropped; obviously he has things to work on. To say he’s been “disappointing” is a subjective statement that depends entirely upon how high you hoped he’d go. To say otherwise is to say your opinion is objective fact. Sorry to break it to you, but it’s not.

By the way, get back to my question, which you nicely dodged with your all-encompassing mediocre stats. 

Other than 2016, name a good year by Watts.

14 minutes ago, ProDee said:

By the way, get back to my question, which you nicely dodged with your all-encompassing mediocre stats. 

Other than 2016, name a good year by Watts.

2011 was pretty decent for a 20 yo. long term prospect and I actually think he was tracking OK under Bailey. Compared to the clubs current development program though it would have been on par with Auskick.

I find your rating of Watts' years as almost in a vacuum with no consideration of what was going on at the club. Long term prospect players offer you nothing for the first few years and then eventually hit their straps. Watts was probably fair game to be judged in 2012 but a bloke named Mark Neeld walked into the club and almost destroyed it. The disunity between Watts and Neeld is well known on here which stumped his growth as a player. So if we exclude the Neeld years, you're only really left with 2 disappointing years (2014, 2015) under Roos. Some would even argue those two were more development years for all that he didn't receive when he started at the club. 

1 minute ago, demon9 said:

2011 was pretty decent for a 20 yo. long term prospect and I actually think he was tracking OK under Bailey. Compared to the clubs current development program though it would have been on par with Auskick.

I find your rating of Watts' years as almost in a vacuum with no consideration of what was going on at the club. Long term prospect players offer you nothing for the first few years and then eventually hit their straps. Watts was probably fair game to be judged in 2012 but a bloke named Mark Neeld walked into the club and almost destroyed it. The disunity between Watts and Neeld is well known on here which stumped his growth as a player. So if we exclude the Neeld years, you're only really left with 2 disappointing years (2014, 2015) under Roos. Some would even argue those two were more development years for all that he didn't receive when he started at the club. 

Nice excuses

the previous decade was a complete disgrace on all levels

After 2013 The club was close to death

players are also part of that

Watts is Best 22. Last time i checked we weren't tanking anymore, which means we play the best team we have. Watts is in that best team.

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, ProDee said:

Far-fetched hopes ?  That's a laugh.  

What, you mean hopes that he wouldn't avoid marking contests, avoid putting your body on the line, avoid half-hearted efforts ?  Perhaps avoid getting dropped twice in his 7th year ?

I'm convinced that 90% of this site are clueless about the actual game of footy.  I have no problem with that, btw, but don't ever suggest one good year in 8 is acceptable.

Or perhaps you can list the years you found were a pass mark ?

No-one was happier than me that he finally had a decent year, but even then it wasn't this earth-shattering year send down by the Gods.  It was a year he should at least meet from here on and in reality exceed.

That may be the case. Interesting to note though that he's had several contract renewals/extensions during his time at this club, under various different regimes and head coaches, the most recent of which was under the Roos/PJ/Mahoney/T Viney/Jason Taylor regime.

Despite the fact that many of us here may not know the difference between the goal square and the pie stand outside the ground,  I put my trust in the fact that these guys know how to rate a player (particularly one on our own list) - and, plainly, they rate Jack Watts. And this is not Jack Watts the 17 year old kid with potential - rather, it is Jack Watts, the mature bodied, experienced AFL player.

Didn't Roos say words to the effect at the B&F last year - 'when the game was in the balance, I was always relieved to see the ball in the hands of none other than Jack Watts'.

This isn't hyberbole. It's fact. Hard, cold, inconvenient fact.

That said, I share your lack of enthusiasm with Watts' apparent drop in performance at training this pre-season.

 

18 minutes ago, demon9 said:

2011 was pretty decent for a 20 yo. long term prospect and I actually think he was tracking OK under Bailey. Compared to the clubs current development program though it would have been on par with Auskick.

I find your rating of Watts' years as almost in a vacuum with no consideration of what was going on at the club. Long term prospect players offer you nothing for the first few years and then eventually hit their straps. Watts was probably fair game to be judged in 2012 but a bloke named Mark Neeld walked into the club and almost destroyed it. The disunity between Watts and Neeld is well known on here which stumped his growth as a player. So if we exclude the Neeld years, you're only really left with 2 disappointing years (2014, 2015) under Roos. Some would even argue those two were more development years for all that he didn't receive when he started at the club. 

Oh please, here we go again. Neeld probably had the same level of frustration in Watts that Roos and now Goodwin had. The difference being that Neeld didn't have the level of talent available to drop Watts.

At the highest level, any sportsman worth a pinch of salt is self motivated. Even if they don't have a great relationship with their coach, they'll play well to spite their coach.

The issues that Watts had when he came into the system, are the same issues he has now. Nobody is to blame bar himself.

 

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

I  wanted a star, but got a tease.

I'll never divorce expectations from his draft pick.  You can please yourself. 

Judd, Hodge, Roughead, Franklin, Pendlebury, Riewoldt, Bontempelli, Bartel, Selwood - all top 10 draft picks, all stars, and all bar one premiership players. 

There are never guarantees, as we especially know, but to suggest my disappointment is based on far-fetched expectations is nuts.  Clubs expect a star with pick one, we got a dud.  It happens, but don't say the problem is my skewed opinion of what he should have been.  It's what the club and everyone wanted.

Some, like you, must be so vague in what you expect you're not disappointed by anything.  No problem, but accept some of us are on a different journey. 

Yes they are all stars of the game but if you can't divorce expectations from his draft pick perhaps you should have a look at his draft

Top ten were;

Watts

NicNat

Hill

Hartlett

Hurley

Yarran

Rich

Vickery

Ziebell and 

Davis

No Pendles, Bonts or Judds in that lot. 

 

 

46 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Oh please, here we go again. Neeld probably had the same level of frustration in Watts that Roos and now Goodwin had. The difference being that Neeld didn't have the level of talent available to drop Watts.

At the highest level, any sportsman worth a pinch of salt is self motivated. Even if they don't have a great relationship with their coach, they'll play well to spite their coach.

The issues that Watts had when he came into the system, are the same issues he has now. Nobody is to blame bar himself.

 

Roos petitioned heavily to renew Watts' contract, so it would seem that your personal bias doesn't accord with the reality on this one.

Roos may have seen room for improvement/further development in Watts, but clearly he didn't have the same level of frustration in him that Neeld did. 

 

 

 

I was thinking about this recently and I compared him to Colin Sylvia in my mind. That's not what he is though, he has a lot more ability than him and I feel like that is clear. I have been a huge defender of Watts for his whole career (including giving a saints supporter a spray for bad mouthing him last year) and last year should be his lowest standard at best. I know and everyone else knows he can do at least that well and to be honest I think he can do so much better. I always hear my friends call him soft. I don't think he is physically that soft but mentally maybe he is.

36 minutes ago, fndee said:

Yes they are all stars of the game but if you can't divorce expectations from his draft pick perhaps you should have a look at his draft

Top ten were;

Watts

NicNat

Hill

Hartlett

Hurley

Yarran

Rich

Vickery

Ziebell and 

Davis

No Pendles, Bonts or Judds in that lot. 

 

Don't know for sure, but I'd guess that all these have played in finals, except for Jack.

I'd also guess that there wouldn't be too may No 1 picks whose team hasn't played in finals for 10 years. Jack would be one of the top half-dozen current players in the AFL for games played without playing in a final. And most teams that get No.1 picks are in the finals again with 3 or 4 years; Melbourne being the outstanding recent exception. Just about every other club has had a finals appearance during Jack's career.

Jack is probably unique in that he walked into a crap team that has, by and large, stayed crap for 8 years.

And mostly as a KPF, who depend on their teammates getting the ball to them. They're not like an in-and-under mid who gets first hands on the ball. In-and-under mids can do really well in a crap team. But very few KPFs who have played for 8 years in a crap non-finals team have done much.

The best & most successful KPFs - and this goes back a long way (think Hudson, Wade, McKenna) - have had stellar midfields pumping the ball at them, often with precision. Jack for most of his career has played with one of the consistently worst midfields in AFL history (thankfully this now seems to be changing).

So to the smart question: "Name me a year other than 2016 in which Watts has been any good" ... Name me a year other than 2016 in which MFC has been any good. (not surprisingly, there's a relationship). Conversely, in the last 8 years, how many KPFs have done well in teams that have been worse than ours?

Oh, and 2 tackles per game is pretty good for a KPF. I looked this up a few years back, CBF looking it up again now. But I recall then that it was better than Buddy, better than Cloke (even after his one good year), pretty close to the Riewoldts. KPFs simply don't seem to tackle that much, for whatever reason.

Or was Watts supposed to overcome all the other deficiencies of all the teams he's played in? No wonder 'some' are disappointed.