20 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

I hate Essendon as much as anyone but this article referring to collingwoods right to ANZAC day is worth a read.

http://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/2014/04/22/magpies-deserve-play-anzac-day/

That is a powerful article. It deals with a lot more than Collingwood but puts a lot of things into perspective.

BTW I am glad that the teams who play on the day were not selected by reference to "how many went to war". I can imagine that avoiding the war in 1914-1918 was a very difficult decision.

Thanks for the link

Edited June 30, 20169 yr by Diamond_Jim
spelling error

4 hours ago, stuie said:

I hate Essendon, and I mean hate.

BUT, without having any kind of stats to back it up, the general consensus I've heard is that the "ANZAC Game" has done more to raise awareness about the ANZACs than anything else before it. If you look at what a huge event the remembrance services are, along with the thousands who now make the trip to Turkey, it does appear like the interest of the general public has never been greater.

As for the main gist of your topic, I think there's a pretty broad discussion to be had around the growing feeling of "political correctness gone mad" and the rise of the right wing that would go hand in hand with it. We're in a transitional phase as a "Western" culture where things are getting just a bit too complicated for those that yearn for the "simpler times" of men earning the crust, women doing the housework, sexism, racism, homophobia and many more outdated aspects of society that kept everything nice and black and white for those who were either too lazy or unwilling to accept anything other than how it's been done before or that things aren't always as clean cut as they would like.

Football is a microcosm of society, so you can clearly see this transition in human form when comparing listening to someone like Sam Newman to someone like Jimmy Bartel.

 

Wow old drinking buddy!! This is quite an amazing assertion - I think you need to find some of those elusive stats to back it up. 

9 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Wow old drinking buddy!! This is quite an amazing assertion - I think you need to find some of those elusive stats to back it up. 

It's hard to find stats on awareness... There's probably a few here I could get the lower scores off, but might need to venture further to bump up the averages

13 minutes ago, stuie said:

It's hard to find stats on awareness... There's probably a few here I could get the lower scores off, but might need to venture further to bump up the averages

My point exactly old mate. Your original argument was unsustainable!

1 minute ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

My point exactly old mate. Your original argument was unsustainable!

My argument wasn't based on stats.

 

Just now, stuie said:

My argument wasn't based on stats.

 

Exactly it was "the vibe". Pointless.

Just now, Bitter but optimistic said:

Exactly it was "the vibe". Pointless.

Lol righto champ...

 

The article posted by Fork'em has a good section on the growing awareness.

The football match was a function of the that growing awareness but I suspect there is merit in Stuie's argument.

There isn't much hope for the AFL IMO. They are too compromised. The actual game of Aussie Rules I think is progressing. Played on a different platform, I think it could have international appeal. Very good game, and getting better, but run by a very poor organisation that is getting worse. Hopefully an astute Chinese businessman see what I do and decides to start up his own league.

5 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

The article posted by Fork'em has a good section on the growing awareness.

The football match was a function of the that growing awareness but I suspect there is merit in Stuie's argument.

Jim !!! Rule number 1 on Demonland. Stuie's arguments never have merit.

32 minutes ago, stuie said:

It's hard to find stats on awareness... There's probably a few here I could get the lower scores off, but might need to venture further to bump up the averages

An unsophisticated forecaster uses statistics as a drunken man uses a lamp post.

For support rather than illumination.

-Andrew Lang

Edited June 30, 20169 yr by Biffen

6 minutes ago, KingDingAling said:

There isn't much hope for the AFL IMO. They are too compromised. The actual game of Aussie Rules I think is progressing. Played on a different platform, I think it could have international appeal. Very good game, and getting better, but run by a very poor organisation that is getting worse. Hopefully an astute Chinese businessman see what I do and decides to start up his own league.

I agree. The Docklands Stadium is  a big turn off for me, which is why i bought up. A lot of supporters are becoming dissolutioned with the Fan Experience of a day at the footy, which used to be a bunch of mates in the outer at hostile suburban grounds or a day at The MCG. 

To counter this the AFL are having all these moral rounds to try and bring the fans back in....

i think all these themed rounds dilute the season as a whole. They are not special. 

It's just another one....

 

The AFL & corporates run the risk of helping turn real social issues into shallow Political Correctness.  Being seen to be image correct, instead of quietly walking the walk.

No one should be brow beaten into accepting something under threat of shaming. 

 

People will accept change If they can see the reasoning & good in it.  Not from being bullied by brow beating, & PC officialdom. 

That is then change that comes without understanding & truth.   hollow.

 

The only ones who push for & advocate change, should be those who have directly suffered under those issues. Then the issues are first hand & very real.

"Growing awareness" is a mixed bag.

The Tomb Raider movie really drastically increased awareness of the temple complexes of Angkor. 

Finding Nemo greatly increased awareness of clownfish.

And for ANZAC Day... It would take a fair bit of effort to convince me that there's been much real gain from the mass-scale uncritical trope-regurgitation by casual one-day-wonders trying to sound deep or like they know all about war.

My disquiet was summed up for me some years ago when Peter Harvey, the veteran journalist known as 'fourballs', led off his ANZAC Day coverage with the statement "Like no other nation, Australai's character has been shaped by war" and nobody pulled him up on it.

19 hours ago, rjay said:

Personally I would like to see them stay right away from the non performance enhancing drugs issue. Their 3 strikes policy doesn't work on any level and just causes more problems than it solves.

If a player gets caught up in it provide all the assistance you can but don't try and police it. The police can't do it, why do the AFL think they can.

Especially once you realise that the AFL don't give ASADA the results of these tests and that many of the 'ilicit drugs' they test for, and players test positive to, are banned by WADA. It is nothing more than the AFL protecting their players from WADA bans through a not very well covered psuedo program that is sold as good social policy.

Scrap the three strikes policy, give the cash to ASADA, and hang on!

19 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Let me try and explain my comment regarding the Anzac round taking away from the central theme of remembrance.

I have always been very proud of the way Australia remembers its War dead and other than our disrespect of Vietnam veterans (which is now being remedied) the men and women who fought in those wars.

That pride has been based not only on natural appreciation and thanks which we share with all other countries in respect of their war dead but also because in "celebrating" that memory we are one of only a few countries to mark it by remembrance of a defeat and thus highlighting the inherent futility of war.

It is that second aspect that we are endangering (perhaps only in my mind) by celebrating the memory with a game that is all about winning and losing. Perhaps also we are in danger of thinking that there are such things as winnable wars.

Sorry if the point is off football but I just wanted to use it as an example of how all pervasive the AFL can become.

I also struggle with the day being sullied by excitement over a game of footy, the day is about remembrance of the futility of war and the sacrifices made by all while under the charge of the egotistical few. 

Yes there is a minutes silence which is absolutely adhered to. How many people in society now think of a footy match when hearing ANZAC day mentioned? Far too many is the answer and that is a great loss for the day and for those who lived through all wars, and those who didn't make it to the end. 

Don't even get me started on the whole 'going into battle', 'in the spirit of the ANZACs' crap that gets bought out every year. Insulting, ignorant crap!

16 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

I hate Essendon as much as anyone but this article referring to collingwoods right to ANZAC day is worth a read.

http://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/2014/04/22/magpies-deserve-play-anzac-day/

Says it all when the put the names of those lost on the banned at it is letters about a meter high so they can fill the space! Plenty of other clubs gave far more and perhaps none gave less. 

14 hours ago, DV8 said:

 

The AFL & corporates run the risk of helping turn real social issues into shallow Political Correctness.  Being seen to be image correct, instead of quietly walking the walk.

No one should be brow beaten into accepting something under threat of shaming. 

 

People will accept change If they can see the reasoning & good in it.  Not from being bullied by brow beating, & PC officialdom. 

That is then change that comes without understanding & truth.   hollow.

 

The only ones who push for & advocate change, should be those who have directly suffered under those issues. Then the issues are first hand & very real.

They should start it but they can not push it due to fact they are normally minorities without power. Unless the 'mainstream' get on board and help to push it will never go anywhere. As I have done on here many times I will speak out against the poor treatment of women (and others) yet I am not a women, should I remain silent while my wife and daughter fight, or should I stand by them and fight the fight to?

5 minutes ago, Chris said:

I also struggle with the day being sullied by excitement over a game of footy, the day is about remembrance of the futility of war and the sacrifices made by all while under the charge of the egotistical few. 

Yes there is a minutes silence which is absolutely adhered to. How many people in society now think of a footy match when hearing ANZAC day mentioned? Far too many is the answer and that is a great loss for the day and for those who lived through all wars, and those who didn't make it to the end. 

Don't even get me started on the whole 'going into battle', 'in the spirit of the ANZACs' crap that gets bought out every year. Insulting, ignorant crap!

It was a tradition for soldiers to have a game of footy together before the AFL game was ever instituted.

Another point is that the change of perception around ANZAC Day and returned service people went through a significant change around the same time the ANZAC game was brought in. When was the last time you saw protesters outnumber participants? Short memories here if you don't recall how this was considered a "controversial" day through the 60s up to at least the late 80s.

Also, if you've listened to the discussion around the language used in regards to the footy game you'll notice those war metaphors have been dropped by pretty much all commentators and broadcasters now. They may still refer to the "ANZAC Spirit", but all references to footy being like war have been well and truly ditched.

How do you feel about our ANZAC Day Eve match?

 

7 minutes ago, stuie said:

It was a tradition for soldiers to have a game of footy together before the AFL game was ever instituted.

Another point is that the change of perception around ANZAC Day and returned service people went through a significant change around the same time the ANZAC game was brought in. When was the last time you saw protesters outnumber participants? Short memories here if you don't recall how this was considered a "controversial" day through the 60s up to at least the late 80s.

Also, if you've listened to the discussion around the language used in regards to the footy game you'll notice those war metaphors have been dropped by pretty much all commentators and broadcasters now. They may still refer to the "ANZAC Spirit", but all references to footy being like war have been well and truly ditched.

How do you feel about our ANZAC Day Eve match?

 

Well aware of the history of attendances at the ANZAC parades, doesn't change one thing about what the day is actually about. Is also a huge leap to say the footy match changed this in any real way. There were far more things at play through that period, like Vietnam, that made ANZAC day of the time what it was.

There is also a misconception I have come across a lot about ANZAC day being a day of celebration and people not supporting it because they don't want to celebrate war. Once you explain what it is actually about these people usually come around, most of the people I have found with this mindset are children of parents who made up the protesters of ANZAC day and everything war.

I agree there has been a reduction in the language but it still gets spouted. The ANZAC spirit one gets spouted by the far right racist thugs quite a bit as well, the irony being that they are against the muslims when the ANZACS had a good amount of respect for the muslims they were fighting and traded with them and played sport with them during a cease fire. Not to mention they fought side by side in certain places in other theaters of war. 

I have no issue with the ANZAC eve game, I have no real issue with playing footy on ANZAC day, I have no issue with the minutes silence and services held. I have a big issue with the ANZAC day game becoming the centre piece of the day, which is has done when you sell it like it has been. 

18 minutes ago, Chris said:

They should start it but they can not push it due to fact they are normally minorities without power. Unless the 'mainstream' get on board and help to push it will never go anywhere. As I have done on here many times I will speak out against the poor treatment of women (and others) yet I am not a women, should I remain silent while my wife and daughter fight, or should I stand by them and fight the fight to?

You stand behind them & support them. You do not take their fight from them. 

Give them strength, & IF they want to fight, they will.  If they don't want the fight, they won't.

 

Grandstanding is shallow hal.

2 minutes ago, Chris said:

Well aware of the history of attendances at the ANZAC parades, doesn't change one thing about what the day is actually about. Is also a huge leap to say the footy match changed this in any real way. There were far more things at play through that period, like Vietnam, that made ANZAC day of the time what it was.

There is also a misconception I have come across a lot about ANZAC day being a day of celebration and people not supporting it because they don't want to celebrate war. Once you explain what it is actually about these people usually come around, most of the people I have found with this mindset are children of parents who made up the protesters of ANZAC day and everything war.

I agree there has been a reduction in the language but it still gets spouted. The ANZAC spirit one gets spouted by the far right racist thugs quite a bit as well, the irony being that they are against the muslims when the ANZACS had a good amount of respect for the muslims they were fighting and traded with them and played sport with them during a cease fire. Not to mention they fought side by side in certain places in other theaters of war. 

I have no issue with the ANZAC eve game, I have no real issue with playing footy on ANZAC day, I have no issue with the minutes silence and services held. I have a big issue with the ANZAC day game becoming the centre piece of the day, which is has done when you sell it like it has been. 

Yeah great points. Just to clarify, I'm not saying the game changed perceptions by itself, but I think it was part of a cultural shift in how we look at the day itself.

One of the interesting points I've heard raised is that the "celebration" aspect has come about now that the generation coming through is one that has never come close to experiencing war in a personal way nor have they ever considered national service. I think that probably adds to why the footy has become such a focus, I'm not sure what else you would want people to do, obviously you can't just sit around acting contemplative all day.

I think the further we get away from personal connections with people involved, the more it becomes about the "ANZAC Spirit" and a "celebration" of Aussie tenacity, rather than a sombre remembrance of lives lost. I'm not sure if that's good or bad.

 

5 minutes ago, DV8 said:

You stand behind them & support them. You do not take their fight from them. 

Give them strength, & IF they want to fight, they will.  If they don't want the fight, they won't.

 

Grandstanding is shallow hal.

Grandstanding? Is it grandstanding to stand up to your mates when they talk about women in a way they shouldn't? Or should you tell your wife/sister/daughter to go and tell them off? Cultural change comes from a shift in mindset from all, not from standing back and watching victims fight back.

 

Must admit I'm involved at Grass level Football, Auskick, Juniors and Seniors.  The AFL and the suburban leagues come out with all the Social campaigns but really offer no support to local clubs.  I think most Local Footballers are so disconnected with the AFL players that what they do has little to no effect on their behaviour.  Young Kids yes they can but once you hit mid teens unless you are in the top percentage of kids you have no connection. Now with the VFL basically being an AFL seconds competition you second tear comp's in Victoria are basically your top division Suburban comps.

To me this is where time and money needs to be spent in the suburban competitions ensuring clubs are supported to at least try to influence people on the right path.  The volunteers at these clubs aren't skilled in dealing with Drugs, Domestic Violence and Gambling, jeez most clubs struggle to get people to run their club.  I commend Jim Bartell for coming out and growing a beard against domestic violence but how many clubs has he gone out to talk to the young males and try to influence them, maybe he is doing this and I'm sure he is but that is what the AFL needs to do if they want to take this social responsibility serious.

The stances the AFL take on these issues is lip service, that is all and it is about getting funding and grants and doing what is politically correct.  Putting on themed rounds doesn't get down to the grass roots and that is where you need to get the message across.

 

 

28 minutes ago, DV8 said:

You stand behind them & support them. You do not take their fight from them. 

Give them strength, & IF they want to fight, they will.  If they don't want the fight, they won't.

 

Grandstanding is shallow hal.

I don't take the fight from them, I stand beside them and fight with them.