29 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Dogs, Collingwood Gold Coast (and to a lesser extent the Saints) have lists that would rival ours and I reckon it's far too early to tell until genuine stars emerge.

Part of the development for these guys is to be around really strong and experienced leaders which is something we presently come last in if comparing to any other club.

It'll be interesting to see how many of these guys reach their potential without the push that many others would get at opposing clubs.

Gold Coast should.

Who do you think the Dogs and Pies top dozen '23 and unders' are ?

No hurry and only if you get time...

Edited August 29, 20168 yr by ProDee

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Dogs, Collingwood Gold Coast (and to a lesser extent the Saints) have lists that would rival ours and I reckon it's far too early to tell until genuine stars emerge.

Btw, I agree about the "genuine stars" bit and was discussing this today.

That said, our improvement on the back of most often having the youngest and most inexperienced team in the competition augers well for the future. 

Got to get a couple of outright stars though.

Edited August 29, 20168 yr by ProDee

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

Outside of GWS name other clubs' top dozen '23 and unders' and rank clubs in order of quality.  I'll give you our top 12: Oliver, Viney, Hogan, Brayshaw, Petracca, Salem, Tyson, Stretch, Kent, Frost, O. McDonald, Weideman. 

I doubt you'll find any other club matches that group, so I think your concerns of clubs flying past us off the back of one draft are unwarranted.

With Watts and Melksham as other top 10 draft picks in our best 2017 team I count 10 x top 10 draft picks (bid or actual) in the lineup.  Name another club that will have 10 top 10 draft picks running around next year. 

I'm very comfortable with the team that's emerging notwithstanding we may not add the "gun" you crave.  

Agree Benny, but who are our 26-30 year old leaders that will help drive those young guns in the way the mature leaders of Syd, Haw and Geel have? That's a hole in our list that needs some serious thought. Viney seems to be growing into that role, but he's still so young. I don't consider NJones a great leader, but he's the best we have. A mature leader or two who can play a bit would be very useful next year. 

Edited August 29, 20168 yr by Moonshadow

We need a great skills coach.

Do you know any?

Pretty simple really

We need

- Good foot skills

- speed and running power through the midfield (the Saints are loaded with it)

- Backup ruckman who can play forward.

I have great faith on JT and Mahoney

Apparently Mathew Boyd from the Dogs is yet to have been offered a contract for next year, pending the obvious week ahead, he could be available as a 34 year old in All australian40 form with good kicking skills and more of a strategic and defensive mindset than Boomer. What do we think? I guess it depends on whether he's seeking financial reward for his good form, or if he's desperate to play a few more years. Daniel Cross might have an opinion.

Edited August 29, 20168 yr by johndemons

49 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Gold Coast should.

Who do you think the Dogs and Pues top dozen '23 and unders' are ?

No hurry and only if you get time...

Dogs : Bontempelli, Wallis, Stringer, Macrae, Boyd, Hunter, Johannisen, Daniel, Jong, Honeychurch, Mclean, Roberts.

Pies: Grundy, De Goey, Crisp, Adams, Treloar, Moore, Langdon, Aish, Broomhead, Maynard, Williams, Marsh.

Clearly the quality drops away after naming about 10. But from 10-15/16 there's as much untapped talent at the dogs and pies as there is with us.

Of course we can nit-pick about 'which dozen you or I would prefer', but it's so far from what's relevant. Look at the age profiles for the rest of the list of both those sides and you'll see that we don't come anyway near matching them in the 23-27 age profile or the 27+. Both sides have far superior talent, experience and leadership in each of those age categories which without doubt contributes to the development of the '23 and unders'.

Which is why it's imperative that we keep adding quality experienced players to our list and which is why it baffles me that the nuffies on here shut down the thought of bringing in a bloke like Harvey simply because they 'dislike him'. Even though he'd walk in as potentially our best player as well as most experienced, regardless of his AGE.

Edited August 29, 20168 yr by stevethemanjordan

Nathan Vardy is someone that we need to consider.  Injury issues a side, we need to get someone who can stand in a forward pocket, take a mark and get into the ruck for 10mins a quarter, or worse still be there just in case something happens to Max.

46 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Dogs, Collingwood Gold Coast (and to a lesser extent the Saints) have lists that would rival ours and I reckon it's far too early to tell until genuine stars emerge.

Part of the development for these guys is to be around really strong and experienced leaders which is something we presently come last in if comparing to any other club.

It'll be interesting to see how many of these guys reach their potential without the push that many others would get at opposing clubs.

No way Collingwood factor into this debate. Was having a debate with a Collingwood mate today and I kept asking him, where's the midfield depth? If you look at the midfields of those you've mentioned, only the Dogs' would compare. Collingwood's drops away dramatically after Treloar, Pendlebury and Sidebottom. Adams is alright. De Goey looks promising. Greenwood? They also lack decent young KPDs. You could argue they're a little light on for KPFs too. 

Let's look at the Gold Coast. Their KPPs rival any in the league, but their midfield? O'Meara, Prestia and Swallow were all in their best 22. They'll all leave and the Suns midfield will consist of Ablett, Martin, Hall, Miler, Rischitelli, Rosa and Shaw. That's a pretty ho-hum midfield. They'll get some more talent with all those draft picks this year, but we can't really comment on those yet. The point is, their overall list is behind ours.

Onto the Saints. They're rife with KPFs, but with the exception of Carlisle, who have they got for KPDs? Fisher is retiring. And their midfield is probably even shallower for sheer talent than Collingwood's. Steven, Montagna (who's basically 33), Armitage (who's 29), Ross, Newnes, Acres and if I've being kind Weller and Savage. In terms of guns, Acres is developing well and Newnes and Ross could be alright, but I'm not convinced.

The Bulldogs I would agree with. Their KP stocks aren't as good as us, the Suns or the Saints, but are probably comparable with Collingwood's. But their midfield is deep and they are well coached, so their holes appear less obvious. Liberatore, Dahlhaus, Bontempelli, Wallis, Macrae, Daniel, Hunter and Adcock.

Only the Suns can compete with us for access to the top midfield talent over the last 3-5 years, but most of their A grade potential stars are walking. If we can keep ours together we have a midfield of: Tyson, Viney, Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Salem, Stretch, older guys in Jones and Vince and if I'm being kind Melksham. Those first five guys, four of them are top 4 picks. We know that elite talent, combined with good development usually converts to star AFL players. Injuries permitting, we should get at least 3 or 4 stars out of that batch.

We've then got two top 10 KPFs who for anyone that has any idea about the game, can see are going to be lynchpins and stars for 10+ years in Hogan and Weideman. 

We have a good mixture of pace all of the sudden with Hunt's break out year to add to a list of Melksham, Frost, Stretch, Kent, Garlett and arguably Harmes.

Our KPD stocks are good IMO with TMac, OMac and Frost, but we could do with another developing defensive tall at the end of this year.

We need to recruit another top class mid (Prestia and Mitchell fit the bill of available options IMO), Hibberd's supposed acquisition will be handy for kicking skills, another developing KPD (at the draft) and more senior leadership (I'd look at Harvey). 

At the end of the day, I actually think we have a great list balance than the Bulldogs, but I agree with you on being dead last in the experienced leadership stakes. If we don't sort this out soon, we might be letting down this new crop of talented youngsters.

38 minutes ago, ProDee said:

 

Got get a coupleof outright stars though.

Any ideas on who?

14 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Nathan Vardy is someone that we need to consider.  Injury issues a side, we need to get someone who can stand in a forward pocket, take a mark and get into the ruck for 10mins a quarter, or worse still be there just in case something happens to Max.

Couldn't understand why we didn't look at Zac Smith.

Spencer is a good stop gap, especially as he is apparently happy to play at Casey, while Max dominates in the Seniors.

It would be great if the two Kings can kick on. Then we wouldn't need to look any further.

2 minutes ago, A F said:

No way Collingwood factor into this debate. Was having a debate with a Collingwood mate today and I kept asking him, where's the midfield depth? If you look at the midfields of those you've mentioned, only the Dogs' would compare. Collingwood's drops away dramatically after Treloar, Pendlebury and Sidebottom. Adams is alright. De Goey looks promising. Greenwood? They also lack decent young KPDs. You could argue they're a little light on for KPFs too. 

Let's look at the Gold Coast. Their KPPs rival any in the league, but their midfield? O'Meara, Prestia and Swallow were all in their best 22. They'll all leave and the Suns midfield will consist of Ablett, Martin, Hall, Miler, Rischitelli, Rosa and Shaw. That's a pretty ho-hum midfield. They'll get some more talent with all those draft picks this year, but we can't really comment on those yet. The point is, their overall list is behind ours.

Onto the Saints. They're rife with KPFs, but with the exception of Carlisle, who have they got for KPDs? Fisher is retiring. And their midfield is probably even shallower for sheer talent than Collingwood's. Steven, Montagna (who's basically 33), Armitage (who's 29), Ross, Newnes, Acres and if I've being kind Weller and Savage. In terms of guns, Acres is developing well and Newnes and Ross could be alright, but I'm not convinced.

The Bulldogs I would agree with. Their KP stocks aren't as good as us, the Suns or the Saints, but are probably comparable with Collingwood's. But their midfield is deep and they are well coached, so their holes appear less obvious. Liberatore, Dahlhaus, Bontempelli, Wallis, Macrae, Daniel, Hunter and Adcock.

Only the Suns can compete with us for access to the top midfield talent over the last 3-5 years, but most of their A grade potential stars are walking. If we can keep ours together we have a midfield of: Tyson, Viney, Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Salem, Stretch, older guys in Jones and Vince and if I'm being kind Melksham. Those first five guys, four of them are top 4 picks. We know that elite talent, combined with good development usually converts to star AFL players. Injuries permitting, we should get at least 3 or 4 stars out of that batch.

We've then got two top 10 KPFs who for anyone that has any idea about the game, can see are going to be lynchpins and stars for 10+ years in Hogan and Weideman. 

We have a good mixture of pace all of the sudden with Hunt's break out year to add to a list of Melksham, Frost, Stretch, Kent, Garlett and arguably Harmes.

Our KPD stocks are good IMO with TMac, OMac and Frost, but we could do with another developing defensive tall at the end of this year.

We need to recruit another top class mid (Prestia and Mitchell fit the bill of available options IMO), Hibberd's supposed acquisition will be handy for kicking skills, another developing KPD (at the draft) and more senior leadership (I'd look at Harvey). 

At the end of the day, I actually think we have a great list balance than the Bulldogs, but I agree with you on being dead last in the experienced leadership stakes. If we don't sort this out soon, we might be letting down this new crop of talented youngsters.

Strange statement, since they do have him and the same could easily be said about us with TMAC. I thought Gresham was a revelation this year and showed some class that few payers have. Billings had a disappointing year but is a gun. Jack Newnes could be alright? The same Seb Ross that gives Dom Tyson a bath every time we play?

Two top KPFs? Based on what? You seem to focus to much on draft position and not enough of what you actually see.

As pessimistic as I am, you seem to be the complete opposite. 

20 minutes ago, A F said:

 

I appreciate your passion for the club, but all you're doing is painting a typical Melbourne supporters portrait.

Taking away Treloar, Pendles and Sidebottom and there's as much potential as we've got AF. That's just the truth.

Aish, Adams, De Goey, Broomhead, Crisp. There's depth.

All you've written about is 'potential'. And I agree the potential looks good, but that's all it is at the moment. 

A whole lot of potential.

Edited August 29, 20168 yr by stevethemanjordan

As a serious question, how is it that we have yet to unearth a genuine superstar player since the new millennium?

Does anyone think it has anything at all to do with things like: a lack of club solidarity culture and identity, a lack of leadership in all facets of the club, a lack of credible and highly respected on-field leaders? Anything else?

Why is it that we haven't?

What, (other than hope) makes supporters believe that one of these young guys we have on our list will become a genuine star of the competition?

Just interested..

Edited August 29, 20168 yr by stevethemanjordan

1 hour ago, Moonshadow said:

Agree Benny, but who are our 26-30 year old leaders that will help drive those young guns in the way the mature leaders of Syd, Haw and Geel have? That's a hole in our list that needs some serious thought. Viney seems to be growing into that role, but he's still so young. I don't consider NJones a great leader, but he's the best we have. A mature leader or two who can play a bit would be very useful next year. 

Why are you asking me ?

You know we don't have them. 

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Dogs : Bontempelli, Wallis, Stringer, Macrae, Boyd, Hunter, Johannisen, Daniel, Jong, Honeychurch, Mclean, Roberts.

Pies: Grundy, De Goey, Crisp, Adams, Treloar, Moore, Langdon, Aish, Broomhead, Maynard, Williams, Marsh.

Clearly the quality drops away after naming about 10. But from 10-15/16 there's as much untapped talent at the dogs and pies as there is with us.

Of course we can nit-pick about 'which dozen you or I would prefer', but it's so far from what's relevant. Look at the age profiles for the rest of the list of both those sides and you'll see that we don't come anyway near matching them in the 23-27 age profile or the 27+. Both sides have far superior talent, experience and leadership in each of those age categories which without doubt contributes to the development of the '23 and unders'.

Which is why it's imperative that we keep adding quality experienced players to our list and which is why it baffles me that the nuffies on here shut down the thought of bringing in a bloke like Harvey simply because they 'dislike him'. Even though he'd walk in as potentially our best player as well as most experienced, regardless of his AGE.

Look, I can't agree that either of those u23's are as good from a depth point of view, although the Dogs go close.  Pies are clearly inferior and fall away.

The Dogs have much better senior players, but once again I can't agree with Collingwood.  

But yes, our group is desperate for some senior talent.  

Just now, ProDee said:

Why are you asking me ?

You know we don't have them. 

Being Demonland's very own suppository of wisdom I thought you might have some suggestions we might consider, given this is a 'who are the Dees chasing' thread. But alas...

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

Any ideas on who?

I'm hoping they're already on the list. 

Oliver, Hogan, Petracca...

17 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Being Demonland's very own suppository of wisdom I thought you might have some suggestions we might consider, given this is a 'who are the Dees chasing' thread. But alas...

You said "who are our 26-30 year old leaders", not who are we considering. 

I  said "you know we don't have them".

It's painful around here.

3 minutes ago, ProDee said:

You said "who are our 26-30 year old leaders", not who are we considering. 

I  said "you know we don't have them".

It's painful around here.

AF,the coahing transition is relatively smooth. Goodwin has to be his own man and if he changes the coaching staff good on him. Our recruiters in conjunction with the coach need to continue the work of Roos and co. Since this who are the Dees chasing at what cost thread,here is a hypothetical if we trade Hogan to Freo would we get their first round pick (bare min.) or will we get another pick earlier than our second round pick in other words two 2nd rd picks?. The Hawks didn't get an earlier pick for Buddy. How can we get Prestia and 2M Peter? As I said B4 I am not a Hibberd fan but will entertain the idea  that EFC will get a 2nd round pick and a 4 th round pick plus we get their 3rd pick.

7 minutes ago, ProDee said:

You said "who are our 26-30 year old leaders", not who are we considering. 

I  said "you know we don't have them".

It's painful around here.

It was a rhetorical question, not written seeking a literal answer. Jump off the spectrum for a minute Ben. I was seeking your view on who we might chase to fill the void, this being a 'who are the Dee's chasing' thread and all. Ah, forget it...

And as for you Stuie, whilst I'm glad you're reading my posts again, try not to poke the bear every time with boring, inane gifs.

3 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Well I think we have to be if we want to see a jump in ladder position again. 

Steve,

You've made some great points in your post - many I agree with, but I just wanted to highlight your first sentence in regards to my own post.

I totally agree that we need to add quality if we want the jump up the ladder we all hope for.  However, it's being able to do it that poses the problem.  Why I said we wouldn't necessarily be big players during this trade period is that we don't seemingly have the chips to be big players with.  Without a first round pick this year, and our second rounder probably going to the Bombers for Hibberd, it leaves us with pocket change in picks.  Who are the players we could let go that might get us better picks?  I'm not too sure.  We won't be parting with any of our talented younger players, and those we would be happy to part with won't get us much.  Unless we get a godfather offer, or something else comes along that we don't know about, I can't see us being able to bring in high quality talent over others like Carlton, Essendon and Richmond.  Not this year anyway.

What we end up doing in this period is anybodies guess, but whatever move we make HAS to improve our list going forward.  To do that we'll need to be very, very clever in terms of how we get picks or get involved in other deals.

16 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Steve,

You've made some great points in your post - many I agree with, but I just wanted to highlight your first sentence in regards to my own post.

I totally agree that we need to add quality if we want the jump up the ladder we all hope for.  However, it's being able to do it that poses the problem.  Why I said we wouldn't necessarily be big players during this trade period is that we don't seemingly have the chips to be big players with.  Without a first round pick this year, and our second rounder probably going to the Bombers for Hibberd, it leaves us with pocket change in picks.  Who are the players we could let go that might get us better picks?  I'm not too sure.  We won't be parting with any of our talented younger players, and those we would be happy to part with won't get us much.  Unless we get a godfather offer, or something else comes along that we don't know about, I can't see us being able to bring in high quality talent over others like Carlton, Essendon and Richmond.  Not this year anyway.

What we end up doing in this period is anybodies guess, but whatever move we make HAS to improve our list going forward.  To do that we'll need to be very, very clever in terms of how we get picks or get involved in other deals.

Dunn, Garland, Matt Jones, Terlich and Dawes to Essendon for pick 1.

Simples.

3 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Well I think we have to be if we want to see a jump in ladder position again. And I think the games against Geelong and Carlton have only highlighted the fact that we need to be active. Not only that, it's worth remembering that St Kilda, Collingwood, Essendon and Port will be vying for a top eight position. Supporters tend to forget that other clubs also improve over the off-season.

Whilst I agree that we don't have much to work with at present, I'm hoping we can somehow creatively make a play for some upgraded draft picks which we can ontrade or creatively make a play for topliner. But that's not our only concern.

I think one of the age-old cliches that circulates these parts at the end of the season is the following: 'Natural improvement from young players over the off-season'. An obvious observation in which some supporters (not saying you) seem to magically think doesn't apply to any other club within the AFL. 

If any Melbourne supporter genuinely thinks we'll make the eight next year on the back of only adding Hibberd during the off-season will be in for nasty surprise.

In my opinion there are three key areas that need addressing if we're to make the eight next year:

 

1 - Age and games experience across all lines of the field. 

2 - Foot-skills and running power.

3 - A Ruckman/forward who has the ability to play in tandem with Max Gawn.

 

In my view, all three can be achieved without much fuss. 

For point 1, I really think that we can bring in some guys who will provide leadership both on and off-field and games experience which we desperately. Equally important will be the fact that these players can fill positions that certain players have manfully struggled to fill for the entire year like Oscar McDonald. 

The fact is, our backline is in desperate need of age and games experience to protect and cover for so many kids who have played through there this year. Let's say we landed Hibberd in a trade and signed Nathan Brown as a restricted FA. The entire back six would look and feel so much more cohesive and would be so much better supported.       

B            Jetta           Brown         O-Mac 

HB        Hibberd        T-Mac      (Spot up for grabs)

 

^ Just looking at those names inspires so much more confidence. It allows for one of Frost or O-Mac to continue to develop their game and bodies at VFL level (which frankly is where both should have been this year if it weren't for degenerate leaders; Dunn and Garland). It would provide healthy competition of spots for Oscar and Frost and it increases our key position depth overall. Personally, I'm still not convinced Frost has the fundamental footballing ability to be a consistent performer at this level. He has an incredible athletic profile, but he is way way too much of a risk to carry into a finals campaign as a definite starter at this current point as is Oscar. Especially both of them playing at once. That should be obvious.

A backline with the addition of Hibberd as a flanker would also allow the release of Hunt to come up to the wing and really add a dimension that has been missing through our midfield for a long time. Serious running power. His ability to cut angles and break lines is huge as we have almost nobody else on the list who can do the same and many of our mids are single-geared runners. 

Key area number 2 will commence tomorrow.

To be continued...

aaagh.. sorry just had a reflux from my cigar... but really I must be on a different planet... which in itself is not a bad idea.. but really why mess with the back 6 when its clearly not our problem... and please have we not wanted a runner back there for three donkeys and a mule and you would take hunt away... and to get brown from from the filth please wait while I toke.. whats wrong with weird frosty let alone wagner salem white blah blah..

concentrate please.. we have two problems.. finally only two... an A grade middy and some experience to help Jonesy and vince,, at least one experienced defender ... hibberd... one middy... rockliff.. one forward like reiwoldt.... not to win the cup.. but to be competitive week in week agogo...and please lets put the talk about viney and leadership where it belongs... in the distant future.. lets see if he can play first before we ask him to inspire.. really... bugger I am going back up to the rainforest with the goannas and the yellow tailed black cockatoos..

by the way thanks for the light..