THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS

[Chris 2,892]

9 minutes ago, binman said:

Sorry i wasn't clear. I meant the impact the scandal might have had on Melksham. For example he had a terrific year in 2013 but fell away a bit in 2014 and 2015. Perhaps a factor was the ongoing drugs saga. Because of his personal relationship with Melksham Goodwin would likely have an intimate understanding of the impact, where as i and other DL posters (unless they knew the Melk personally) wouldn't. As i understand it the Melk and Goodwin have remained close after Goodwin left EFC

That makes far more sense. Thanks. 

[stuie 7,374]

Just now, Chris said:

Yes. EFC were surprised by the appeal for crying out loud. The AFL have this whole grander than thou attitude that normally works but they didn't realise WADA don't give a stuff and will barge in where they see fit, as they have. 

In short the AFL are a joke when it comes to drugs in sport, the evidence of their ineptitude is everywhere to be seen and goes to all levels from the top admin staff to the juniors at AusKick. 

Right. So "Chris" and "beelzebub" from Demonland know more about the Essendon drug saga than two well respected AFL coaches who have been intimately involved with EFC... FMD. You started off so well reasoned, and you just lost all credibility.

[Dees2014 2,377]

13 hours ago, MrReims said:

It's these kind of sweeping statements that do my head in though. The MFCs interests haven't been affected except in the imaginations of those who believe the future will go south. So I don't see the need for flinging mud at the board or our 'legal hard heads' or anyone else for that matter when nothing has happened yet!

 

The crux of the argument seems to be whether or not we as supporters would worry whether 2 individuals involved in the club at the time are now with us or not. If found guilty of any wrong doing any Melbourne player or staff need to be held accountable. It would be the same if they were found drunk behind the wheel or shallow graves were found in their backyard. Do the crime, do the time. But if the absolute worst happens and both jake and simon are banned for 2 years, I'm not going to be angry at the club! That's life, situations change and not hiring/recruiting who they believe to be the right person purely because speculation says there might be an issue further down the track would leave me far more disillusioned. How many on here bemoaned us missing out on Jack Darling? He was involved in a nightclub fight just before the draft. What if the next year he got into another fight and seriously hurt  someone and ended up in jail? Would we all say WC were crazy to take him given his history and the apparent risk? 

In other words right or wrong, guilty or innocent, banned or cleared I think the Mfc Footy department are smart enough to carry on just fine.

You a club official Reims?

I'd imagine they would be pretty peeved at the pounding they are taking on here and other sites for their naivety in going after anyone associated with Essendon during the Hird regime. Still I guess they are no different from the majority of the AFL industry who just thought the all-powerful AFL would make it all go away. 

Some of us knew better. You can be as peeved off as you like about me and others pointing that out, but it doesn't make it go away. 

The risk management at the club should have been far more sophisticated than that, and since it wasn't it may cost them considerably both on the playing and coaching side. Clearly you are quite comfortable with this. 

[rjay 24,916]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

You forgot to include consequence in your assessment of the risk level. As he is not a superstar and is just an honest role player and therefore replaceable the consequence to the team of his suspensions is very low, hence the overall risk is low as well.

It is actually the opposite of Goodwin where the risk of him being suspended is low but the consequence of him being suspended is massive. 

I think we need to add the risk that we traded away an early 2nd round pick for a mature player. Good idea to have a balanced list and not too many kids but what if Melksham gets 2 years against 2 years development of a kid that could be an "A" Grader...

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Dees2014 said:

You a club official Reims?

I'd imagine they would be pretty peeved at the pounding they are taking on here and other sites for their naivety in going after anyone associated with Essendon during the Hird regime. Still I guess they are no different from the majority of the AFL industry who just thought the all-powerful AFL would make it all go away. 

Some of us knew better. You can be as peeved off as you like about me and others pointing that out, but it doesn't make it go away. 

The risk management at the club should have been far more sophisticated than that, and since it wasn't it may cost them considerably both on the playing and coaching side. Clearly you are quite comfortable with this. 

Take it you're a club official then "Dees2014"? I'm guessing you're higher than Mahoney and PJ seeing you knew better than them?

[Chris 2,892]

2 minutes ago, stuie said:

Right. So "Chris" and "beelzebub" from Demonland know more about the Essendon drug saga than two well respected AFL coaches who have been intimately involved with EFC... FMD. You started off so well reasoned, and you just lost all credibility.

Tell me this Stuie,

Did the EFC think there would be an appeal?

Did the EFC think WADA would get involved?

Did the AFl think there would be an appeal?

Did the AFL think WADA would get involved?

Did the AFL go against the wishes of ASADA with the interim report thinking they could bully them (very unwise move)?

The answers are no, no, no, no, and yes.

My answers all along were yes, yes, yes, yes, and surely they wouldn't even try! Seems I am more on the money than the so called professionals in AFL land. For more evidence have look at their laughable illicit drug policy, while not a WADA matter it is ridiculous in the extreme, then have a look at the training they provide players where they are told to trust the club doctor!!!! Stupidity and a complete lack of understanding of the code or what it stands for. The AFL are monkeys when it comes to drugs in sport.

[stuie 7,374]

Just now, Chris said:

Tell me this Stuie,

Did the EFC think there would be an appeal?

Did the EFC think WADA would get involved?

Did the AFl think there would be an appeal?

Did the AFL think WADA would get involved?

Did the AFL go against the wishes of ASADA with the interim report thinking they could bully them (very unwise move)?

The answers are no, no, no, no, and yes.

My answers all along were yes, yes, yes, yes, and surely they wouldn't even try! Seems I am more on the money than the so called professionals in AFL land. For more evidence have look at their laughable illicit drug policy, while not a WADA matter it is ridiculous in the extreme, then have a look at the training they provide players where they are told to trust the club doctor!!!! Stupidity and a complete lack of understanding of the code or what it stands for. The AFL are monkeys when it comes to drugs in sport.

Hahahahahaha.... Ok, so now not only you do know better than Goodwin, McCartney, Mahoney and PJ, but you know everything about what has been happening too? Wow. When do you take the witness stand?

Amazing you're not running the club and they continue to let those amateurs wreck the place...

[Macca 16,959]

Just now, Dees2014 said:

Macca, if they are found guilty I think it is more than likely the coaching, medical and some administrative staff will be issued with infraction notices by ASADA. Their (ASADA/WADA) main game are the perpetrators, but they have to establish that banned drugs were taken (ie by the players) before they can move against the main culprits. 

This is just the first round.

Yet bing181 has intimated that that may only occur if there is new evidence ... again, I'm not taking sides nor do I have a definitive opinion on what might happen in the aftermath (mainly because I've envisaged all sorts of outcomes - including a not guilty verdict) 

What I'm reasonably confident of is that the proverbial will hit the fan if the players are found guilty and receive lengthy bans ... careers will in some cases be over or irreparably damaged and there will be fallout because of that ... also, in that scenario we could assume that many of the players will open up about what actually happened whereas previously they've been rather vague and not forthcoming ... it may end up being an everyman for himself situation. Let's not forget that 22 of the 34 are no longer at the EFC.

Again, I'm only expressing my opinion on the proviso that the players cop close to the maximum penalty or indeed receive the maximum penalty - which may or may not happen of course. In other words ... worst case scenario will have it's consequences.

You and bing181 have both expressed the view that the players will cop hefty penalties and if you're both right, it won't end there. It can't do (in my opinion)

[daisycutter 29,613]

3 minutes ago, Chris said:

Tell me this Stuie,

Did the EFC think there would be an appeal?

Did the EFC think WADA would get involved?

Did the AFl think there would be an appeal?

Did the AFL think WADA would get involved?

Did the AFL go against the wishes of ASADA with the interim report thinking they could bully them (very unwise move)?

The answers are no, no, no, no, and yes.

My answers all along were yes, yes, yes, yes, and surely they wouldn't even try! Seems I am more on the money than the so called professionals in AFL land. For more evidence have look at their laughable illicit drug policy, while not a WADA matter it is ridiculous in the extreme, then have a look at the training they provide players where they are told to trust the club doctor!!!! Stupidity and a complete lack of understanding of the code or what it stands for. The AFL are monkeys when it comes to drugs in sport.

don't try and understand, chris

in stuieland the officials at afl, mfc and efc are all full time professionals and therefore are more knowledgeable than us

they never make mistakes and never try to hide the truth from us

they are above questioning and may never be challenged

qed

[Chris 2,892]

5 minutes ago, stuie said:

Hahahahahaha.... Ok, so now not only you do know better than Goodwin, McCartney, Mahoney and PJ, but you know everything about what has been happening too? Wow. When do you take the witness stand?

Amazing you're not running the club and they continue to let those amateurs wreck the place...

Point missed entirely Stuie. I am not talking about the specifics of the issue, and never was, I am talking about the respect and understanding of the code in general and the lengths WADA will go to to ensure it is upheld. The AFL have no idea on that front, that is why they were all surprised by the appeal.

Keep misrepresenting what I have said though, it is funny for the rest of us who can actually read what I have said. 

Your last line doesn't make any sense either, surely you see we have changed subject, unless of course I am now part of the burn the club down group because I disagree on an unrelated point? You are very hard to follow at times. 

Edited December 7, 2015 by Chris

[Dees2014 2,377]

6 minutes ago, stuie said:

Take it you're a club official then "Dees2014"? I'm guessing you're higher than Mahoney and PJ seeing you knew better than them?

No Stuie, but read my posts and  others like BB and WJ on this subject going back three years if you don't believe some of us were warming the consequences of Hird's behaviour, and the dangers of dealing with Essendon.

But then again, I'm sure you will not bother - it might open your closed mind.

[ManDee 7,134]

6 minutes ago, Chris said:

Tell me this Stuie,

Did the EFC think there would be an appeal?

Did the EFC think WADA would get involved?

Did the AFl think there would be an appeal?

Did the AFL think WADA would get involved?

Did the AFL go against the wishes of ASADA with the interim report thinking they could bully them (very unwise move)?

The answers are no, no, no, no, and yes.

My answers all along were yes, yes, yes, yes, and surely they wouldn't even try! Seems I am more on the money than the so called professionals in AFL land. For more evidence have look at their laughable illicit drug policy, while not a WADA matter it is ridiculous in the extreme, then have a look at the training they provide players where they are told to trust the club doctor!!!! Stupidity and a complete lack of understanding of the code or what it stands for. The AFL are monkeys when it comes to drugs in sport.

No point asking stuie a question, he only answers when it suits. He jumps to conclusions and argues at the periphery of the point raised. 

 

Many people outside AFL land see things in the real world and apply real world thinking. Sometimes those on the inside are too close to make correct decisions all the time.

 

So stuie sometimes those on the outside get it right and those on the inside get it wrong.

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, Dees2014 said:

No Stuie, but read my posts and  others like BB and WJ on this subject going back three years if you don't believe some of us were warming the consequences of Hird's behaviour, and the dangers of dealing with Essendon.

But then again, I'm sure you will not bother - it might open your closed mind.

So are you a club official then? Shouldn't you have warned PJ three years ago if you knew so well what was going on and how it would all turn out? What amateurs they all must be, no wonder our club is going backwards so fast.....

[daisycutter 29,613]

i wish there was a dislike button sometimes

[stuie 7,374]

6 minutes ago, Chris said:

Keep misrepresenting what I have said though, it is funny for the rest of us who can actually read what I have said

 

32 minutes ago, stuie said:

So you actually think posters on Demonland have a better understanding of the drug scandal than two AFL professionals who have been at EFC?

 

21 minutes ago, Chris said:

Yes.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[Chris 2,892]

Just now, stuie said:

So are you a club official then? Shouldn't you have warned PJ three years ago if you knew so well what was going on and how it would all turn out? What amateurs they all must be, no wonder our club is going backwards so fast.....

Why do I have that Michael Jackson song stuck in my head, you know the one, it keeps going on about being black, and white, oh yeah yeah yeah. 

The club can be well managed and go forward and make mistakes all at the same time Stuie. I am not saying they have I am just saying they can. You defence above relies on that not being possible. 

[ManDee 7,134]

1 minute ago, stuie said:

 

 

Seems pretty clear to me.

[stuie 7,374]

Just now, Chris said:

Why do I have that Michael Jackson song stuck in my head, you know the one, it keeps going on about being black, and white, oh yeah yeah yeah. 

The club can be well managed and go forward and make mistakes all at the same time Stuie. I am not saying they have I am just saying they can. You defence above relies on that not being possible. 

No, my defence is that Jackson, Mahoney, Goodwin, McCartney, Roos etc know a truck load more about the AFL and everything involved with it than any of us, despite you trying to say otherwise.

[Devil is in the Detail 883]

41 minutes ago, stuie said:

1 minute ago, ManDee said:

 

[ManDee 7,134]

1 minute ago, Devil is in the Detail said:

 

[Chris 2,892]

2 minutes ago, stuie said:

No, my defence is that Jackson, Mahoney, Goodwin, McCartney, Roos etc know a truck load more about the AFL and everything involved with it than any of us, despite you trying to say otherwise.

About the AFL absolutely, same goes for football, but not WADA and the drug code. The AFL were dragged into in and have paid lip service only to it, which is evidenced by a lot of different things over the last 10 years or so since they signed on. I was personally introduced to the code, as it was then, about 20 years ago and lived under it for a while, I have experience in the matter, the AFL think they do but so many things point to them not having a clue.

[binman 42,888]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

Tell me this Stuie,

Did the EFC think there would be an appeal?

Did the EFC think WADA would get involved?

 

This is a really interesting question Chris. I have to say i disagree with you and that despite their (feigned) surprise the answer to both these question is actually yes. I'd be shocked if they didn't expect WADA would appeal. 

I've never called a radio station but was very close to calling 3aw and speaking to Caro on exactly this point and i'm pretty sure i posted about it here. In my view of all the complete balls up from the EFC in terms of how Little has handled this whole saga this was up there with the worst.

As i said I'd be shocked if they didn't expect WADA would appeal but either way they should have counseled the players to be prepared for such an eventuality. Instead they played the shock card and allowed their players to be completely caught of guard. The bottom quickly fell out of the club and the players lost all morale. I really believe EFC were extremely lucky not to get hammered for this woeful bit of man management. 

The one positive is Hird lost his job on the back of their horror run. 

 

Edited December 7, 2015 by binman

[Sir Why You Little 37,029]

44 minutes ago, Chris said:

Surely you jest! I am yet to see one person in AFL land have any really appreciation of the impact the drug scandal may have. 

I have no doubt the AFL want this whole issue to just go away. 

They did what they had to in 2013. 

The AFL tribunal set up was a complete joke. 

Vlad couldn't wait to get out the door...he probably knew exactly how serious it was

the AFL is far more interested in TV Broadcast deals and all going to Ireland for a free holiday. 

[Chris 2,892]

2 minutes ago, binman said:

This is a really interesting question Chris. I have to say i disagree with you and that despite their (feigned) surprise the answer to both these question is actually eys. I'd be shocked if they didn't expect WADA would appeal. 

I've never called a radio station but was very close to calling to 3aw and speaking to Caro on exactly this point and i'm pretty sure i posted about it here. In my view of all the complete balls up from the EFC in terms of how Little has handled this whole sag this was up their with the worst.

As i said I'd be shocked if they didn't expect WADA would appeal but if they were unsure they should have counseled the players to be prepared for such an eventuality. Instead they played the shock card and allowed their players to be completely caught of guard. The bottom quickly fell out of the club and the players lost all morale. I really belive EFC were extrmely lucky not to get hammered for this woeful bit of man management. 

The one positive is Hird lost his job on the back of their horror run. 

 

I have thought the same about the management in how could they not see this coming. I have come to the conclusion that they actually didn't, that their reading of the whole thing has been that bad from day one, and their legal advice so appalling (remember the court case that embarrassed them but did serve to delay, which may have actually been their tactic) that they actually had no idea the appeal was coming. 

The other part of this is that I don't think so lowly of them that I would think they would drive the players into the shock of an appeal knowingly. Maybe I am given them too much credit?

[Its Time for Another 4,208]

58 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

 

Maybe it's time we changed the name of this Forum from Demonland to "Analogies Are Us"

He started it. I'm just trying to speak his language to help him out.