Indonesia

[Earl Hood 6,152]

Indonesia, after today I am over You. By you I mean their elite political and religious leaders who let us be honest hate our guts. I am not talking about the average Indonesian person here.

We have had our differences over the years yes. But it has always been one way, their way, in my opinion. Balibo 5, East Timor atrocities, West Papua atrocities, Bali Bombings. We give them aid for armed forces, and disasters. Yes we [censored] them off with the asylum seeker, boat issue but that did not impact on them materially just on their reputation. Their machismo?

Let us just agree we have differences and we go our own way. Limited interaction is best, withdraw any aid. And let us take this opportunity to do some good and take a lead in the UN to shine alight on West Papua and the Indonesian atrocities that are occurring there. Their military are more corrupt than most, involved in illegal logging, land grabs, people smuggling and whatever else you can think of. And to think we I've their military aid!

[hardtack 10,982]

The thing that irks me the most is that most of the 100 or so responsible for the Bali bombing that killed 202 foreigners and locals, have been set free and that they have a total of almost 90 drug traffickers (mostly foreign) being executed. There seems to be a theme with regards to their treatment of foreigners vs locals.

I would be quite happy to see two thirds of the $600 mil we give in aid each year redirected to Nepal in the short term as a message to them. I wouldn't like to stop teh aid completely, because then those Indonesians who genuinely need it will be disadvantaged.

[nutbean 8,838]

I compare how we handle our relationships with the way NZ handles theirs.

It is obvious the reason we tippy toe around Indonesia is because of their very integral role in the flow of refugees, the attempt to balance the growing influence of China to Indonesia and co-operation in anti terrorism ( with the largest Islamic country being on our doorstep).

Now NZ took a stand on nuclear weapons and will not allow their ally, the US, to berth their naval vessels in their country - and this affected their relationship...how ?

I know that the US is a different animal to Indonesia and we should not overreact but we need to control our relationship with Indonesia - not be controlled.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

Heard on the radio yesterday that they contribute $15b in trade to our economy every year.

It's not just a simple matter to tell them to get stuffed. We'd hurt pretty badly.

Agreed that the relationship must change though.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Indonesia, after today I am over You. By you I mean their elite political and religious leaders who let us be honest hate our guts. I am not talking about the average Indonesian person here.

We have had our differences over the years yes. But it has always been one way, their way, in my opinion. Balibo 5, East Timor atrocities, West Papua atrocities, Bali Bombings. We give them aid for armed forces, and disasters. Yes we [censored] them off with the asylum seeker, boat issue but that did not impact on them materially just on their reputation. Their machismo?

Let us just agree we have differences and we go our own way. Limited interaction is best, withdraw any aid. And let us take this opportunity to do some good and take a lead in the UN to shine alight on West Papua and the Indonesian atrocities that are occurring there. Their military are more corrupt than most, involved in illegal logging, land grabs, people smuggling and whatever else you can think of. And to think we I've their military aid!

it return the boats policy caused the people trafficking black market to stop in its tracks. the black money cash-cow going to corrupt police in Indonesia & other officials along that chain of command, no doubt are not happy with the Lib government.

.... but I just wonder where much of that money ends up ???

does some of it find its way to the Middle East ? to ISiS, or to 'al-Qaeda' ??

------------------------------

just what is this government up to ?

the Libs are trying they're darnedest to run this country the way They want to... but maybe Not the way Australians want from them ?

The real question in my mind yet unanswered IS, just Whom is running the Libs agenda in a time of religious tensions, internationaly & domestically.

is this a culprit of political agenda's > ???

whom or what is driving the Liberals ideology?

Bali 9 executions: Abbott government backflipped on AFP death penalty directive

Bali nine: Backlash against Indonesia continues

Many voices around the world condemn Indonesia's continued use of capital punishment but Tony Abbott has faced criticism at home for withdrawing the country's ambassador.

The Abbott government quietly scrapped an instruction to the Australian Federal Police last year requiring it to take Australia's opposition to the death penalty into account when co-operating with overseas law enforcement agencies.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott and Justice Minister Michael Keenan. Photo: Alex Ellinghausen

........................

In 2010, Labor's then minister for home affairs, Brendan O'Connor, included Australia's opposition to the death penalty in his official ministerial direction to the AFP.

The 2010 ministerial direction said the minister expected the AFP to "take account of the government's long-standing opposition to the application of the death penalty, in performing its international liaison functions". This was the first time such an instruction had been included in a ministerial direction to the AFP.

In May 2014, Justice Minister Michael Keenan issued a new ministerial direction that removed the instruction. The 2014 ministerial direction includes no reference to the death penalty.

In a letter sent to Mr Keenan on Wednesday, opposition justice spokesman David Feeney said the instruction should be included in the ministerial direction as a "matter of urgency".

The omission "raises concerns that protecting Australians from the risk of being subject to the death penalty in a foreign jurisdiction is no longer to be considered a critical priority for the AFP," Mr Feeney wrote.

"In light of the the devastating loss of Andrew Chan and Myuran Sukumaran overnight, and the national outpouring of grief which has followed, it is more important than ever that ... Australia's political leaders do all we can to protect Australians from the threat of the death penalty, and to campaign for the global abolition of this cruel punishment."

........... Mr Feeney asked for clarification whether the omission was deliberate or an oversight.

When Labor introduced the instruction in 2010, Philip Ruddock - who was attorney general at the time of the Bali nine arrests - said it was "very problematic" and could stop the AFP co-operating with Indonesian police to prevent potential terrorist attacks.

The AFP also has a set of internal guidelines, developed in 2009 following the Bali nine arrests in Indonesia, titled AFP National Guideline on International Police-to-Police Assistance in Death Penalty Situations. The guidelines require the AFP to consider "the degree of risk to the person in providing the information, including the likelihood the death penalty will be imposed" when co-operating with overseas agencies.

Mr Keenan on Thursday accused Labor of playing politics with the deaths of two men and said the party was creating confusion by referring to the high-level ministerial direction rather than the AFP's internal guidelines.

http://www.watoday.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/bali-9-executions-abbott-government-backflipped-on-afp-death-penalty-directive-20150430-1mwh1t.html

[dee-luded 2,959]

Heard on the radio yesterday that they contribute $15b in trade to our economy every year.

It's not just a simple matter to tell them to get stuffed. We'd hurt pretty badly.

Agreed that the relationship must change though.

whats more important to you?

your principles; or some money

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

whats more important to you?

your principles; or some money

$15b is a lot of jobs mate.

It's not as clear cut as you make it.

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,658]

I just wish all the Aussies who spent so much time campaigning for a couple of drug traffickers would spen a fraction of that time trying to raise money for the hundreds of thousands of Nepalis who have lost their homes through no fault of their own.

[Jara 1,153]

Most depressing bit of the whole fiasco is that it has little to do with a genuine movement against drugs. Indonesia has a huge drug problem; around 15000 die from it every year.

The elites, however, have no interest in tackling it - because they control it.

Their solution? Bump off a few foreign mules. This has two outcomes: it supports the illusion that theyre doing something, and it whips up a little anti-infidel hysteria.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Most depressing bit of the whole fiasco is that it has little to do with a genuine movement against drugs. Indonesia has a huge drug problem; around 15000 die from it every year.

The elites, however, have no interest in tackling it - because they control it.

Their solution? Bump off a few foreign mules. This has two outcomes: it supports the illusion that theyre doing something, and it whips up a little anti-infidel hysteria.

thats it, boat people or drug trafficking... kickbacks to they're corrupt officials, police, ministers, etc.... & just where does all that money end up? & I wonder how much is sent to the middle East?

IMO they have an agenda. a political & religious agenda

[nutbean 8,838]

I just wish all the Aussies who spent so much time campaigning for a couple of drug traffickers would spen a fraction of that time trying to raise money for the hundreds of thousands of Nepalis who have lost their homes through no fault of their own.

I agree with this but I have seen this mentioned before - along with spending the same amount time on refugee problems and other domestic and international issues.

I'll ask the question - is campaigning against the death penalty and also involving one self in a myriad of other issues mutually exclusive ?

[Earl Hood 6,152]

I just wish all the Aussies who spent so much time campaigning for a couple of drug traffickers would spen a fraction of that time trying to raise money for the hundreds of thousands of Nepalis who have lost their homes through no fault of their own.

Rod I have managed to do both but they are separate issues. One is about giving aid in a disaster, the other is a fundamental issue of injustice and let's face it the ultimate injustice we can do to someone, the firing squad. I don't get your point really, what we never question the misuse of political power because there is some disaster happening somewhere?

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,658]

Rod I have managed to do both but they are separate issues. One is about giving aid in a disaster, the other is a fundamental issue of injustice and let's face it the ultimate injustice we can do to someone, the firing squad. I don't get your point really, what we never question the misuse of political power because there is some disaster happening somewhere?

No problem with questioning the misuse of power, what annoys me is that for so many, lives of Australians are much more important than those from other countries (and us Aussies are far from the only nation guilty of this)

Three days after the earthquake, while people were dying buried under there house, the media treated them as an afterthought as two Australian drug traffickers were being executed.

I would love to see those who campaigned so strongly to save the lives of 2 Aussies in Indonesia do the same thing to help save the lives of thousands upon thousands facing a potential death sentence in Nepal

[nutbean 8,838]

No problem with questioning the misuse of power, what annoys me is that for so many, lives of Australians are much more important than those from other countries (and us Aussies are far from the only nation guilty of this)

Three days after the earthquake, while people were dying buried under there house, the media treated them as an afterthought as two Australian drug traffickers were being executed.

I would love to see those who campaigned so strongly to save the lives of 2 Aussies in Indonesia do the same thing to help save the lives of thousands upon thousands facing a potential death sentence in Nepal

I strongly believe that we are conditioned (dare I say led) by the media. If you compare the coverage the Bali Nine duo received compared to Nepal it was very lopsided - but then one was tragic natural disaster of massive proportions but devoid of intrigue - the other had twist and turns, corruption and also plays on some peoples base instincts of dislike of things "foreign". I remember the amount of coverage Schappelle Corby received. Whilst I was angered at the amount of jail time she received I did wonder that if she wasn't a "pretty female" what sort of attention the case would have received.

There certainly was a sense of some jumping onto a sensationalised issue and I do agree that it would be nice to have the same passion being poured into issues that are not quite as high profile.

[hardtack 10,982]

The media in Australia (and no doubt most "first world" countries) are first and foremost all about selling sensationalist crap and never about impartial reporting.

The execution of the Bali "two" forced coverage of the deaths of what is now seven and a half thousand people (and rising) off the front pages and out of general awareness. We saw the same thing happen in the wake of the Martin Place siege where the deaths of two people was considered headline worthy for weeks while at the same time we had the horrific murder of almost 140 students at a school in Pakistan consigned to a small paragraph somewhere in the bowels of the newspaper.

And then, if that's not bad enough, the media see fit to turn the Bali two into national heroes. Yes, the death penalty is barbaric and Indonesia should be left in no doubt as to how we feel about it, but heroes? Really??? They were drug mules... they should not have been shot but rather, should have served a long time behind bars... but history should not be re-written to depict these guys as selfless heroes.

I suppose we can all dream of the day when these major media empires see fit to redirect some of the money (that they have made selling their sensationalistic rubbish), to those who are genuinely in need. Pigs might fly as well (athough I think Murdoch has probably already proven that one on a regular basis).

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

The media in Australia (and no doubt most "first world" countries) are first and foremost all about selling sensationalist crap and never about impartial reporting.

The execution of the Bali "two" forced coverage of the deaths of what is now seven and a half thousand people (and rising) off the front pages and out of general awareness. We saw the same thing happen in the wake of the Martin Place siege where the deaths of two people was considered headline worthy for weeks while at the same time we had the horrific murder of almost 140 students at a school in Pakistan consigned to a small paragraph somewhere in the bowels of the newspaper.

And then, if that's not bad enough, the media see fit to turn the Bali two into national heroes. Yes, the death penalty is barbaric and Indonesia should be left in no doubt as to how we feel about it, but heroes? Really??? They were drug mules... they should not have been shot but rather, should have served a long time behind bars... but history should not be re-written to depict these guys as selfless heroes.

I suppose we can all dream of the day when these major media empires see fit to redirect some of the money (that they have made selling their sensationalistic rubbish), to those who are genuinely in need. Pigs might fly as well (athough I think Murdoch has probably already proven that one on a regular basis).

I agree with most of what you said, but I'm not sure the media made them out to be heroes.

I think it's an oversimplification. The media present their more human faces, their rehabilitated side while playing down their drug-related activities. In a world where we're used to 'heroes and villains' in media stories, maybe we just applied that trope to the presentation of this story and assumed that the media classed them as heroes.

Personally I was pretty happy with the coverage of the issue from the news sources I use (ABC News 24 and The Age), although I agree that it took more precedence over the Nepal deaths than it should have.

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,658]

...their rehabilitated side while playing down their drug-related activities...

The media talked about their rehabilitated side a lot.

They hardly ever mentioned the fact that while in jail, Chan sent a threatening letter to one of his 17 year old drug mules who was caught in Honkers to keep her mouth shut.

I reserve the right to be sceptical on these rehabilitated claims

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

The media talked about their rehabilitated side a lot.

They hardly ever mentioned the fact that while in jail, Chan sent a threatening letter to one of his 17 year old drug mules who was caught in Honkers to keep her mouth shut.

I reserve the right to be sceptical on these rehabilitated claims

All fair.

Doesn't mean they should have been put to death.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I strongly believe that we are conditioned (dare I say led) by the media. If you compare the coverage the Bali Nine duo received compared to Nepal it was very lopsided - but then one was tragic natural disaster of massive proportions but devoid of intrigue - the other had twist and turns, corruption and also plays on some peoples base instincts of dislike of things "foreign". I remember the amount of coverage Schappelle Corby received. Whilst I was angered at the amount of jail time she received I did wonder that if she wasn't a "pretty female" what sort of attention the case would have received.

There certainly was a sense of some jumping onto a sensationalised issue and I do agree that it would be nice to have the same passion being poured into issues that are not quite as high profile.

re Shapelle, i agree with some of your thoughts re female & media attention. I've also waxed & waned over her involvement, & her families? I still suspect she was setup by others, or her family?

------------------------------

Re the executions of the 2 of the Bali 9; IMO its wrong & cruel to kill them the way they did. & notwithstanding the claims of corruption of those in judgement of the 2 from within the Indonesian legal field.

the corruption? the time in jail served & the fact they never got the drugs to point of delivery & sale, as well as their efforts in rehabilitation of themselves & of others in the jail.

..... for the new president to come into power, then take back the unofficial pardon of the '2', to then send them to execution is wrong on any moral front I can think of.... & IMO smacks of a political payback, & of religious/political pork-barreling for his supporters.

there is NO WAY I would ever go to holiday in Indonesia again, & just maybe he & his supporters are after Just this outcome anyway... keeping westerners away from their nations peoples, & they're political movement????

the world is turning a strange religious hew atmo. lets see what transpires over in the east indies?

[nutbean 8,838]

re Shapelle, i agree with some of your thoughts re female & media attention. I've also waxed & waned over her involvement, & her families? I still suspect she was setup by others, or her family?

------------------------------

Re the executions of the 2 of the Bali 9; IMO its wrong & cruel to kill them the way they did. & notwithstanding the claims of corruption of those in judgement of the 2 from within the Indonesian legal field.

the corruption? the time in jail served & the fact they never got the drugs to point of delivery & sale, as well as their efforts in rehabilitation of themselves & of others in the jail.

..... for the new president to come into power, then take back the unofficial pardon of the '2', to then send them to execution is wrong on any moral front I can think of.... & IMO smacks of a political payback, & of religious/political pork-barreling for his supporters.

there is NO WAY I would ever go to holiday in Indonesia again or ever, & just maybe he & his supporters are after Just this outcome anyway... keeping westerners away from their nations peoples, & they're political movement????

the world is turning a strange religious hew atmo. lets see what transpires over in the east indies?

It certainly was political.

Taking away from the issues of the corruption, the political nature of the executions, the rehabilitation of the men to me it always was and always will be about the broader issue of capital punishment.

If killing someone or doing a crime that will cause deaths ( which is the principle behind the death penalty for drug crimes) is so heinous then how can administering death as a punishment be any less heinous.

Wherever the death penalty exists it makes us a little less human.

[dee-luded 2,959]

It certainly was political.

Taking away from the issues of the corruption, the political nature of the executions, the rehabilitation of the men to me it always was and always will be about the broader issue of capital punishment.

If killing someone or doing a crime that will cause deaths ( which is the principle behind the death penalty for drug crimes) is so heinous then how can administering death as a punishment be any less heinous.

Wherever the death penalty exists it makes us a little less human.

to me, death of a criminal or someone convicted, to be executed, is wrong. the only time I can see the sense is when there is no way of maintaining the safety of society, as long as the person is alive. so if the person had a way of poisoning peoples minds against their wishes to become killers, even in jail, then maybe then?

but to kill a nations people found guilty of crime, whilst trying to save your own criminals from execution overseas, is just mind boggling.