Jump to content


Recommended Posts

Posted

That's not how it works. To be found guilty of use or intending to use, you don't need to know that what you intend to use contains a banned substance.

The players got off because the tribunal weren't convinced that the "TB4" they were injected with was actually TB4.

Without a blood test (or similar), how would they ever prove that what was injected was actually X unless someone spills the beans, or (foolishly) records of X are kept.

Sounds like a license to use drugs for which no test has yet been developed, especially if a club's managers are prepared to lie to the players.

Posted

Without a blood test (or similar), how would they ever prove that what was injected was actually X unless someone spills the beans, or (foolishly) records of X are kept.

Sounds like a license to use drugs for which no test has yet been developed, especially if a club's managers are prepared to lie to the players.

Exactly.

Which is why programs like the Blood Passport scheme have been introduced, but also why cases without positive tests can be difficult to prove - as we've just seen.

Posted

Further to my previous post about australian Olympic athletes attitudes to the ESSENDON saga, where these links didn't work, I think they will now. Even though the articles aren't the latest, they do demonstrate the one rule for the wealthy and another for the also rans. Not everyone agrees with ABBOTT and Hird, thank goodness. I particularly like the last one. Absolutely spot on if you ask me. Says it all, and particularly says why there is no way known that these guys can get off in the face of CAS if everyone is treated equally globally, which is what WADA's job is.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-saga-shows-we-need-to-change-protocol-20130831-2sxoy.html

http://www.therunningreview.com/2013/06/19/athlete-qa-tamsyn-lewis-manou/

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/play-it-straight-and-take-the-medicine/story-fni0fhh1-1226703731898

  • Like 1
Posted

Further to my previous post about australian Olympic athletes attitudes to the ESSENDON saga, where these links didn't work, I think they will now. Even though the articles aren't the latest, they do demonstrate the one rule for the wealthy and another for the also fans. No everyone agrees with ABBOTT and Hird, thank goodness.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-saga-shows-we-need-to-change-protocol-20130831-2sxoy.html

http://www.therunningreview.com/2013/06/19/athlete-qa-tamsyn-lewis-manou/

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/play-it-straight-and-take-the-medicine/story-fni0fhh1-1226703731898

If it ends here '2014, I suspect the clamour from other sports will become a din, which is why you're probably right about WADA taking on the case. It's certainly about much more than 34 players now.

  • Like 2

Posted

Not sure if this has been mentioned, the Social Litigator comments on the decision/appeal. Interesting read for anyone interested:

A question of proof: might an ASADA appeal have legs?

"Consider this: Those teammates who testified to taking a banned substance (c.f. participating in a banned practice such as blood doping) could not know that the substance they took was EPO. Instead, they thought it was.

Now consider this: Evidence which to USADA was so compelling it was overwhelming, might fail to satisfy the AFL Tribunal, according to its reasons published to date.

So too, whilst this evidence met the standard of beyond reasonable doubt (the highest criminal standard) for USADA, for the AFL Tribunal, such evidence might not even reach the lesser comfortable satisfaction test."

  • Like 4
Posted

Not sure if this has been mentioned, the Social Litigator comments on the decision/appeal. Interesting read for anyone interested:

A question of proof: might an ASADA appeal have legs?

"Consider this: Those teammates who testified to taking a banned substance (c.f. participating in a banned practice such as blood doping) could not know that the substance they took was EPO. Instead, they thought it was.

Now consider this: Evidence which to USADA was so compelling it was overwhelming, might fail to satisfy the AFL Tribunal, according to its reasons published to date.

So too, whilst this evidence met the standard of beyond reasonable doubt (the highest criminal standard) for USADA, for the AFL Tribunal, such evidence might not even reach the lesser comfortable satisfaction test."

Thanks Bing. It's pretty much as Jack has been saying all along, though the article also provides plenty of other things to think about.
  • Like 1

Posted

Although I probably should have added that it's a bit disconcerting to realise that every time I buy a packet of Panadeine from the chemist, and without testing each and every tablet, I can only ever have the confidence of believing it's Panadeine. Lucky we have the placebo effect to keep all those drugs working.

Posted

Thanks Bing. It's pretty much as Jack has been saying all along, though the article also provides plenty of other things to think about.

I think she's nailed it.

From the first time I read those parts of the decision that were released, I felt there was a lack of logical consistency in the decision-making of the Tribunal which led me to think that the test it applied was not that enunciated in the Briginshaw case. Enough for me to believe that an appeal was available and that WADA should take it to CAS so that the case can be determined in accordance with the way the anti doping laws are meant to be dealt with and not in accordance with the black letter of our common law.

It was said above that two members of the Tribunal played AFL football and that this was somehow an advantage in reaching a decision. Buffoons like Sam Newman are applauding the verdict but I disagree with that view entirely.

  • Like 3

Posted

charlatan.jpg

Borrowed from Bigfooty
Comment on Dank's "qualifications"!
(Has anybody here tried to make an appointment with a endocrinologist? The real ones are are very busy people!)
whatsthego said:

gee you make some good pints there-- hows these for answers?
Dank is a biochemist/sports scientist-- same amount of college time-- but fair enough-- OK he wasn't a doctor-- i didn't even know that-- still they trusted him, as a person-as a professional - who was highly qualified
the fact they went to the club is just what they thought was right to do

......................................................................

anoncomment said:

I'm late to the party on this piece of nonsense. To become a doctor in the position of practicing independently, one must complete a minimum of 5 years of university, and 4 years of postgraduate training. If we're talking a specialist physician, the only person I would trust to have sufficient expertise in an area as complex as endocrinology, they must do a minimum of 5 years university, 1 year of internship, 3 years of basic physician training, 3 years of advanced training, and likely a year-long fellowship. That comes to a minimum of 13 years, just to get your foot in the door. This compares to Dank's 3 year undergraduate degree, and an incomplete Master's degree. After this he pursued a career selling dodgy genetic testing to gullible sporting teams. He is a pseudo-scientist. He's a shill, a snake-oil salesman, a charlatan.

. . . Dank was apparently well enough qualified for Hird to turn him loose on the playing list!!

  • Like 1
Posted

......................................................................

anoncomment said:

I'm late to the party on this piece of nonsense. To become a doctor in the position of practicing independently, one must complete a minimum of 5 years of university, and 4 years of postgraduate training. If we're talking a specialist physician, the only person I would trust to have sufficient expertise in an area as complex as endocrinology, they must do a minimum of 5 years university, 1 year of internship, 3 years of basic physician training, 3 years of advanced training, and likely a year-long fellowship. That comes to a minimum of 13 years, just to get your foot in the door. This compares to Dank's 3 year undergraduate degree, and an incomplete Master's degree. After this he pursued a career selling dodgy genetic testing to gullible sporting teams. He is a pseudo-scientist. He's a shill, a snake-oil salesman, a charlatan.

. . . Dank was apparently well enough qualified for Hird to turn him loose on the playing list!!

Dank's qualifications are a bit of a mystery to say the least and as subject to mythologising as anything else to do with this whole saga. A while ago I came across some Essendonian claiming that he (Dank) has 50 published biochemistry papers so I went to Google Scholar and did a search. Nothing. Not by Dank anyway (although I did give up after about five pages). A few papers mentioning Dank and the Cronulla/Essendon cases, but that was all. Still, he tells us he's the expert and who are we to disagree.

  • Like 1
Posted

Dank's qualifications are a bit of a mystery to say the least and as subject to mythologising as anything else to do with this whole saga. A while ago I came across some Essendonian claiming that he (Dank) has 50 published biochemistry papers so I went to Google Scholar and did a search. Nothing. Not by Dank anyway (although I did give up after about five pages). A few papers mentioning Dank and the Cronulla/Essendon cases, but that was all. Still, he tells us he's the expert and who are we to disagree.

Indeed!

  • Like 1
Posted

i just got it

if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck it's not a duck unless you have a certified dna test

must remember next time i go to colonel sandes kentucky chicken

Posted

i just got it

if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck it's not a duck unless you have a certified dna test

must remember next time i go to colonel sandes kentucky chicken

It looks, quacks and waddles like a duck so it's a . . . Giraffe??

Posted

I think she's nailed it.

From the first time I read those parts of the decision that were released, I felt there was a lack of logical consistency in the decision-making of the Tribunal which led me to think that the test it applied was not that enunciated in the Briginshaw case. Enough for me to believe that an appeal was available and that WADA should take it to CAS so that the case can be determined in accordance with the way the anti doping laws are meant to be dealt with and not in accordance with the black letter of our common law.

It was said above that two members of the Tribunal played AFL football and that this was somehow an advantage in reaching a decision. Buffoons like Sam Newman are applauding the verdict but I disagree with that view entirely.

I am not a lawyer, but it seems to me that the Tribunal seemed to think that proving to their comfortable satisfaction that they players believed they took TB4 and that they actually took TB4 were significantly different conclusions. In particular, the second was not shown to their comfortable satisfaction, but I am unclear what they thought about the first. The Social Litigator article seemed to imply that the basis of the appeal could be that they only need to be comfortably satisfied that the players believed they took TB4, not that they actually did.

FWIW Jack, if Sam Newman is in favour, then I am generally against it, whatever it is ... :)

Posted

i just got it

if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck it's not a duck unless you have a certified dna test

must remember next time i go to colonel sandes kentucky chicken

IIRC there was a time when that mob could legally serve rabbit as chicken. Somehow, duck would be preferable for me ...

Also, you probably don't want to know the reason why a certain other company refers to thick shakes rather than milk shakes ... :blink:


Posted

Tomorrow's headlines today:

Bombers blame loss on Airport "sniffer" dogs, border security full of labour stooges claims Hird!

  • Like 1
Posted

Jab and the injectors simple ran out of the good stuff.

  • Like 1

Posted

Glad I taped the Swans/Bombers game from last night.

What a dramatic transformation from the commentators blathering on at half time about Essendon's "Cinderella" story to the end result and a win to Sydney?

In the first half it was all about Essendon winning because it was letting out the pent up frustration of the ASADA investigation and when it all went wrong, they blamed the lack of a proper preparation. I blame it on having a pathetic coach. Bomber Thompson would have known how to stop the run on.

  • Like 1
Posted

Herald Sun are such a disgrace,,, a day after violent protests across Australia, their front page story and picture is of that fat dope Jobe Watsons ugly mug

That rag couldnt be any more pro-Bombers if it tried

  • Like 1
Posted

I know this has been raised many times, but this para really gets me:

In terms of new evidence, Dank has said he has detailed records of the 2012 injecting program but has yet to present these to any investigation.

So despite him having evidence that proves the players innocent he has let them be dragged through the dirt for 2 years by not presenting it.

Yet the media still go to that $#^%# for comments.

  • Like 3

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    2024 Player Reviews: #7 Jack Viney

    The tough on baller won his second Keith 'Bluey' Truscott Trophy in a narrow battle with skipper Max Gawn and Alex Neal-Bullen and battled on manfully in the face of a number of injury niggles. Date of Birth: 13 April 1994 Height: 178cm Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 219 Goals MFC 2024: 10 Career Total: 66 Brownlow Medal Votes: 8

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons

    TRAINING: Wednesday 13th November 2024

    A couple of Demonland Trackwatchers braved the rain and headed down to Gosch's paddock to bring you their observations from the second day of Preseason training for the 1st to 4th Year players. DITCHA'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS I attended some of the training today. Richo spoke to me and said not to believe what is in the media, as we will good this year. Jefferson and Kentfield looked big and strong.  Petty was doing all the training. Adams looked like he was in rehab.  KE

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #15 Ed Langdon

    The Demon running machine came back with a vengeance after a leaner than usual year in 2023.  Date of Birth: 1 February 1996 Height: 182cm Games MFC 2024: 22 Career Total: 179 Goals MFC 2024: 9 Career Total: 76 Brownlow Medal Votes: 5 Melbourne Football Club: 5th Best & Fairest: 352 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 6

    2024 Player Reviews: #24 Trent Rivers

    The premiership defender had his best year yet as he was given the opportunity to move into the midfield and made a good fist of it. Date of Birth: 30 July 2001 Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 100 Goals MFC 2024: 2 Career Total:  9 Brownlow Medal Votes: 7 Melbourne Football Club: 6th Best & Fairest: 350 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 2

    TRAINING: Monday 11th November 2024

    Veteran Demonland Trackwatchers Kev Martin, Slartibartfast & Demon Wheels were on hand at Gosch's Paddock to kick off the official first training session for the 1st to 4th year players with a few elder statesmen in attendance as well. KEV MARTIN'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Beautiful morning. Joy all round, they look like they want to be there.  21 in the squad. Looks like the leadership group is TMac, Viney Chandler and Petty. They look like they have sli

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 2

    2024 Player Reviews: #1 Steven May

    The years are rolling by but May continued to be rock solid in a key defensive position despite some injury concerns. He showed great resilience in coming back from a nasty rib injury and is expected to continue in that role for another couple of seasons. Date of Birth: 10 January 1992 Height: 193cm Games MFC 2024: 19 Career Total: 235 Goals MFC 2024: 1 Career Total: 24 Melbourne Football Club: 9th Best & Fairest: 316 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons

    2024 Player Reviews: #4 Judd McVee

    It was another strong season from McVee who spent most of his time mainly at half back but he also looked at home on a few occasions when he was moved into the midfield. There could be more of that in 2025. Date of Birth: 7 August 2003 Height: 185cm Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 48 Goals MFC 2024: 1 Career Total: 1 Brownlow Medal Votes: 1 Melbourne Football Club: 7th Best & Fairest: 347 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 5

    2024 Player Reviews: #31 Bayley Fritsch

    Once again the club’s top goal scorer but he had a few uncharacteristic flat spots during the season and the club will be looking for much better from him in 2025. Date of Birth: 6 December 1996 Height: 188cm Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 149 Goals MFC 2024: 41 Career Total: 252 Brownlow Medal Votes: 4

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 9

    2024 Player Reviews: #18 Jake Melksham

    After sustaining a torn ACL in the final match of the 2023 season Jake added a bit to the attack late in the 2024 season upon his return. He has re-signed on to the Demons for 1 more season in 2025. Date of Birth: 12 August 1991 Height: 186cm Games MFC 2024: 8 Career Total: 229 Goals MFC 2024: 8 Career Total: 188

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 7
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!

×
×
  • Create New...