2015 TAC Cup

[monoccular 17,411]

This obsession posters seem to have with height and size as a midfielder is becoming pretty ridiculous.

Curnow might be a big-bodied player who can potentially become an AFL midfielder, but not once have I read anything about how his football related skills match up. Like his kicking. Which for the MFC, must be our number one pre-requisite when going to the draft.

They seem to be all the rage since Roosy jumped on board, but given our lack of skill level in general in all areas of the ground, I'm certainly not enticed by the sound of a big-bodied athletic type of player when there is no mention of the fundemental skills you need to become a good player at the highest level.

Kennedy and Mundy are natural footballers. Both of them kick well and are really good decision makers. They understand the game.

I think it's imperative for us to draft players who will compete hard at all times and be able to use the ball well. Big-bodied or not.

'His disposal needs work' is not something I want to hear when it comes to a potential top 10 selection at the draft. That's just [censored] ludicrous.

Why do so many underestimate the importance of being able to kick well?

I seem to recall a while back that the obsession was with "athletes", Cale Morton, or "elite kicks", Maric and Strauss, now "big bodied mids"

How about good all round footballers, Salem, Brayshaw?

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Some of that was just bad recruiting in general.

Strauss I know for a fact pre-draft wasn't expected to go inside the top 25. He isn't a natural footballer. He was a really strong runner at Scotch College and happened to have a great kick. As far as other footballing attributes go, he didn't possess many. A mate of mine who finished a year above him was very surprised he went as high as he did.

Again a combination of bad recruiting and bad development.

[ChaserJ 4,992]

Some of that was just bad recruiting in general.

Strauss I know for a fact pre-draft wasn't expected to go inside the top 25. He isn't a natural footballer. He was a really strong runner at Scotch College and happened to have a great kick. As far as other footballing attributes go, he didn't possess many. A mate of mine who finished a year above him was very surprised he went as high as he did.

Again a combination of bad recruiting and bad development.

I remember being pretty disappointed in the Strauss pick. kept hoping all the way down the board that we would take Walters.

We basically tossed up between he and Jetta at pick 5oish, thought they were similar players and went with Nev, as he had more grunt.

I'm a big fan of Neville, but find it hard to believe that you could look at he and Walters and think they were similar players.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I remember being pretty disappointed in the Strauss pick. kept hoping all the way down the board that we would take Walters.

We basically tossed up between he and Jetta at pick 5oish, thought they were similar players and went with Nev, as he had more grunt.

I'm a big fan of Neville, but find it hard to believe that you could look at he and Walters and think they were similar players.

Freo's development program and club environment has been a huge influence for Walters.

I remember reading that he was finding difficulty in applying himself during pre-season early days. When Ross came along and the leaders called him out, thing's changed. He's become one of the hardest workers at the Dockers now and has been labelled 'captain' material. When you have leaders like Pavlich, Mundy, Sandilands etc driving a club, it's monumental for the development of younger guys. Like, it's seriously underestimated in the realm of supporters.

I know that if I was drafted to a club like Freo vs MFC, my development would soar exponentially simply because of the behaviour and habits I'd witness from serious hard working leaders who are not interested in celebrity status.

Compare that to being drafted to the MFC with a core group of long serving 'leaders' in Frawley, Garland, Jamar, Dunn etc. You're understanding of what it takes to push yourself to become the best would be worlds apart if you compared the two. Jones is one out of the box for us. Imagine having 5-6 senior leaders like Jones.

One of the reasons why we've had so much trouble with the development of our younger players is because of this.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,018]

I'd bank on Kreuzer leaving.

I also expect the Lions & Blues to both get 1st round compo picks.

Who for?

[dazzledavey36 54,194]

Freo's development program and club environment has been a huge influence for Walters.

I remember reading that he was finding difficulty in applying himself during pre-season early days. When Ross came along and the leaders called him out, thing's changed. He's become one of the hardest workers at the Dockers now and has been labelled 'captain' material. When you have leaders like Pavlich, Mundy, Sandilands etc driving a club, it's monumental for the development of younger guys. Like, it's seriously underestimated in the realm of supporters.

I know that if I was drafted to a club like Freo vs MFC, my development would soar exponentially simply because of the behaviour and habits I'd witness from serious hard working leaders who are not interested in celebrity status.

Compare that to being drafted to the MFC with a core group of long serving 'leaders' in Frawley, Garland, Jamar, Dunn etc. You're understanding of what it takes to push yourself to become the best would be worlds apart if you compared the two. Jones is one out of the box for us. Imagine having 5-6 senior leaders like Jones.

One of the reasons why we've had so much trouble with the development of our younger players is because of this.

Bit like how Colin Sylvia would reach his potential being at Freo.

Oh wait..

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Bit like how Colin Sylvia would reach his potential being at Freo.

Oh wait..

He was clearly too far gone to make amends.

And frankly, I always thought Sylvia was the kind of guy who preferred to be known 'socially' amongst the AFL and outside world rather than being known for his ability and work ethic as an AFL player.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,018]

If you go back to right after Sylvia and McLean were drafted, McLean made a few comments about going out with Col and his mates and being sick for days afterwards because they partied so hard. Not a great example of a professional player.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,018]

Very interesting looking at the Phantom Draft Boards over on Big Footy. General consensus is that Parish will be gone by the time we get a pick. Knightmare has us taking Harley Balic, although he doesn't have much info on him in his post. The write-up from the YTT thread reads as follows:

Of the top players, it's his versatility that makes him standout. Equally as good across half forward as he is in the midfield. Some midfielders throw themselves in hard and win the ball, while others dance around the traffic to break free. Balic can do both. He isn't your typical midfielder/flanker.

The Young Talent Time thread has us taking Curnow, with the following write-up:

Curnow is one of the most intriguing project players in the draft. Does he play as a forward? Or can he truly be developed into a big midfielder? Where he gets drafted will depend a lot on that. And I think Melbourne take him, with the view of putting him in the middle. Melbourne fans would love the idea of him and Petracca rotating through the middle and as a third tall next to Hogan.

Personally I think I'd like Curnow of the two. I haven't seen a huge amount of either but Curnow looks like he could develop into a more damaging player and he certainly has the work ethic down.

[Grimes Times 1,278]

Some of that was just bad recruiting in general.

Strauss I know for a fact pre-draft wasn't expected to go inside the top 25. He isn't a natural footballer. He was a really strong runner at Scotch College and happened to have a great kick. As far as other footballing attributes go, he didn't possess many. A mate of mine who finished a year above him was very surprised he went as high as he did.

Again a combination of bad recruiting and bad development.

I know for a fact Strauss was rated with some clubs inside 25. Refer below from a club recruiter. Id be taking the view from a club recruiter before some mate from school. Even if the players didnt turn out as expected. But lets not argue over the merit picks that are well and truly gone.

Blease - 17 yr old. Very quick, lovely mover, likes to run and carry. Decent kick and gets some good distance. Can get down on himself if beaten. Needs alot of size and strength. He should light up the 'G' flying down the wing ala Robbie Flower. We had him at 15.

Strauss- I love this kid. One of the best kicks in the TAC. Deceptively quick. Moves within himself but hard to tackle. Great balance and footy smarts. Should be a talented onballer or HBF who sets up play. Alot like Heath Scotland. We had him at 24

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I know for a fact Strauss was rated with some clubs inside 25. Refer below from a club recruiter. Id be taking the view from a club recruiter before some mate from school. Even if the players didnt turn out as expected.

Blease - 17 yr old. Very quick, lovely mover, likes to run and carry. Decent kick and gets some good distance. Can get down on himself if beaten. Needs alot of size and strength. He should light up the 'G' flying down the wing ala Robbie Flower. We had him at 15.

Strauss- I love this kid. One of the best kicks in the TAC. Deceptively quick. Moves within himself but hard to tackle. Great balance and footy smarts. Should be a talented onballer or HBF who sets up play. Alot like Heath Scotland. We had him at 24

That wasn't BP himself was it? Can only imagine it was.

He certainly wasn't rated top 25 by the overwhelming majority of the football world.

Regardless, not all recruiters turn out to be correct. Just like some 'mates' don't turn out to be correct.

[Mach5 4,767]

That wasn't BP himself was it? Can only imagine it was.

He certainly wasn't rated top 25 by the overwhelming majority of the football world.

Regardless, not all recruiters turn out to be correct. Just like some 'mates' don't turn out to be correct.

If it was BP, we'd have taken the player we rated at 19 or earlier, not the kid we rated at 24 while their were still better players left on the board!

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

If it was BP, we'd have taken the player we rated at 19 or earlier, not the kid we rated at 24 while their were still better players left on the board!

Wel we all know BP's track record...

Anyway, I choose to believe my mate in this particular instance. He's a better footballer in general than Strauss and I'm of the view that plenty of guys miss out on playing at the top level even though they have the required skill set. Sometimes what they're not blessed with is being 'naturally fit' nor do they have the will or desire to get themselves at their fittest at under-age level due to a whole range of reasons.

If we're talking about football specific skills, I would rate my mate ahead of Strauss and genuinely he'd have had more of an 'impact' if given the opportunity. But of course if you miss out on Tac Cup and Vic Metro as an 18 year old, it becomes very tough to make it..

One need look no further than our very own AVB. Picked up as a mature-age rookie, displays all the traits of being a 'natural' footballer. Contests and competes hard, has solid fundemental skills, reads the game and ball well. Just 'knows' how to play. He's no athlete though. However now that he's in the system, he has the luxury of being paid to take all the time in the world to work on something every human can work on. Fitness.

One thing that must be said is the following. As far as football specific skills go. Like kicking. It's a learned skill. Something you learn how to do as a kid and the better the technique, the better the kick. Once you reach the age of 18, these learned skills, (like kicking) are so ingrained

that it becomes extremely difficult to change.

Fitness however is not a learned skill. Al humans can get fitter. Some of course are blessed with advantages but as an AFL footballer, you only need 'work ethic' to be able to reach a suitable level. Out of all of the great AFL midfielders out there, nobody ever mentions who is 'fitter' or 'fittest'. They're all extremely fit.

Strauss was an athlete first and foremost and displayed one great football specific attribute which was his kicking. However as far as being a 'natural footballer' goes, he was never that. But due to the strong traits that he did display as well as playing in a strong APS school footy program, he was given the opportunity to play Tac Cup and then for Vic Metro. And as a HB flanker with a great kick and a naturally good tank, you're always going to 'look' good at that level.

I know it's off topic but it interests me anyway. BP was pretty lucky to be an AFL recruiter I must say.

Wouldn't mind a crack at it myself.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,018]

One thing that must be said is the following. As far as football specific skills go. Like kicking. It's a learned skill. Something you learn how to do as a kid and the better the technique, the better the kick. Once you reach the age of 18, these learned skills, (like kicking) are so ingrained that it becomes extremely difficult to change.

I can't agree on this. It takes work, yes, but it can be done. Like anything it's a matter of constant drilling until it becomes a natural action. We should have a professional kicking coach to work with each player and totally eliminate the up-and-under kick that is such a blight on our play.

[whatwhat say what 22,640]

I can't agree on this. It takes work, yes, but it can be done. Like anything it's a matter of constant drilling until it becomes a natural action. We should have a professional kicking coach to work with each player and totally eliminate the up-and-under kick that is such a blight on our play.

Isn't Yze specialist kicking coach at the Hawks?

Bring him home!

Yze Magic can stay wherever he is...

[Arrow 1,257]

Wel we all know BP's track record...

Anyway, I choose to believe my mate in this particular instance. He's a better footballer in general than Strauss and I'm of the view that plenty of guys miss out on playing at the top level even though they have the required skill set. Sometimes what they're not blessed with is being 'naturally fit' nor do they have the will or desire to get themselves at their fittest at under-age level due to a whole range of reasons.

If we're talking about football specific skills, I would rate my mate ahead of Strauss and genuinely he'd have had more of an 'impact' if given the opportunity. But of course if you miss out on Tac Cup and Vic Metro as an 18 year old, it becomes very tough to make it..

One need look no further than our very own AVB. Picked up as a mature-age rookie, displays all the traits of being a 'natural' footballer. Contests and competes hard, has solid fundemental skills, reads the game and ball well. Just 'knows' how to play. He's no athlete though. However now that he's in the system, he has the luxury of being paid to take all the time in the world to work on something every human can work on. Fitness.

One thing that must be said is the following. As far as football specific skills go. Like kicking. It's a learned skill. Something you learn how to do as a kid and the better the technique, the better the kick. Once you reach the age of 18, these learned skills, (like kicking) are so ingrained

that it becomes extremely difficult to change.

Fitness however is not a learned skill. Al humans can get fitter. Some of course are blessed with advantages but as an AFL footballer, you only need 'work ethic' to be able to reach a suitable level. Out of all of the great AFL midfielders out there, nobody ever mentions who is 'fitter' or 'fittest'. They're all extremely fit.

Strauss was an athlete first and foremost and displayed one great football specific attribute which was his kicking. However as far as being a 'natural footballer' goes, he was never that. But due to the strong traits that he did display as well as playing in a strong APS school footy program, he was given the opportunity to play Tac Cup and then for Vic Metro. And as a HB flanker with a great kick and a naturally good tank, you're always going to 'look' good at that level.

I know it's off topic but it interests me anyway. BP was pretty lucky to be an AFL recruiter I must say.

Wouldn't mind a crack at it myself.

Disagree with the majority of this.

I played junior footy with James all through my younger life and he won club and league best and fairests every year. The premise that he wasn't a natural footballer is false, he was a great runner because he trained so hard for his footy.

Furthermore, if Melbourne hadn't selected him at 19, WC would've at 20. The way the cards fell, we ended up with him and the Eagles with Shuey which has been particularly beneficial for them. Who knows what Luke would've been like at MFC or James would've been like in a different environment.

You've mentioned AVB who has been a revelation for his tackle pressure but his skills are not even close to AFL standard. He's had a large number of critical errors by hand and foot that show why he's taken until 24 to be drafted. Thankfully his appetite for tackling and contested footy makes up for some deficiencies.

AFL Drafting like all sports will always include some risk of drafting players who clubs think will develop into the best player. Some will make it, some will not. Unfortunately for us, in the last 10 years far far too many have not. It appears we are starting to see that change.

[Whispering_Jack 29,753]

There were two completely different games played at Ikon Park yesterday.

The first was a one sided elimination final which the Oakleigh Chargers dominated after quarter time and the second was an exciting semi final which saw North Ballarat come from a long way behind to win.

Oakleigh Chargers 2.3 7.8 10.10 19.12 (126)

Gippsland Power 2.1 2.5 6.5 7.6 (48)

GOALS:

Oakleigh Chargers: Phillips 4 Crocker 4 Kerr 3 Johnstone 2 Adduci 2 McLarty Lane Walker Duman

Gippsland Power: Papley 5 Hobbs Ainsworth

BEST:

Oakleigh Chargers: Byrne-Jones Wenn Answerth Phillips Beddison Cuningham

Gippsland Power: Papley Patullo Beck Buykx-Smith Hillier Dessent

North Ballarat Rebels 2.3 4.6 11.11 16.15 (111)

Geelong Falcons 7.2 9.4 14.5 15.9 (99)

GOALS:

North Ballarat Rebels: Rioli 4 Cowan 3 Hopper 2 Johnston 2 Tucker Wellings Byrne Wheelahan Eades

Geelong Falcons: Blair 5 Curnow 4 Kol 3 Mathieson 2 Sexton

BEST:

North Ballarat Rebels: Lloyd Cowan Meek Eades Hopper Simpson

Geelong Falcons: Curnow Blair Parish Kershaw Zdybel Doedee

[Return to Glory 8,411]

The trouble with these phantom drafts on big footy etc. is that, by and large, they follow one another - and with very little genuine information that sets one apart from the other. A case in point is the power rankings - meaningless but look good. And I may be the only one who is not sold on the Knightmare stick.

Curious to see where Kurt Mutimer is rated in respect to Bailey Rice. Rice has had more coverage (father/son) but nowhere near the player that Mutimer is in my view. I guess that's where our recruiters need to earn their dough.

[Whispering_Jack 29,753]

If ... (and I mean "if") Jeremy Howe goes to another club then Jake Lovett could be his ideal replacement going by the speccy he is reported to have taken in the TAC Cup final today.

[Whispering_Jack 29,753]

Today's games were in a way a mirror of yesterday with the Ranges dominating the Calder Cannons followed by a close one.

Eastern Ranges 6.3 11.5 16.7 17.8 (110)

Calder Cannons 2.5 5.8 5.9 11.10 (76)

GOALS:

Eastern Ranges: Clarke 4 Hardwick 3 Collins 2 Garner 2 Stephenson 2 Mitchener Cotte Jacotine Jeffs

Calder Cannons: Brown 4 Wunhym 2 Moore Flower James Tarczon Kerbatieh

BEST:

Eastern Ranges: Batty Clarke Cotte Jeffs Clarke Parsons

Calder Cannons: Wallis Flower Moore Allan McDonald Stillman

Dandenong Stingrays 3.4 6.8 8.10 10.13 (73)

Murray Bushrangers 1.1 6.1 8.5 10.7 (67)

GOALS:

Dandenong Stingrays: Young 4 Battle 2 Prior Freeman Williams Di Pasquale

Murray Bushrangers: Canfield 3 Simpkin 2 Schache 2 Smith Sproule Payne

BEST:

Dandenong Stingrays: Nyuon Weitering Young Holden Collins Rouse

Murray Bushrangers: Morrison Oliver Tanner Waite King Payne

[RalphiusMaximus 6,018]

The big hanger by Lovett today

[ChaserJ 4,992]

If ... (and I mean "if") Jeremy Howe goes to another club then Jake Lovett could be his ideal replacement going by the speccy he is reported to have taken in the TAC Cup final today.

Jakey Lovett did some nice things today. At least in my mind I consider him a definite draft able and hope we pick him up (3rd round onward would be appropriate).

The hanger was a beauty, got a great ride, juggled it on the way down, but held on at the third attempt. Scores were level at the time, and his kick inside 50 resulted in a free kick for Dandy which resulted in the match winning goal.

Ryan Clarke was dominant for Eastern Ranges in the first game. Was dynamic at the stoppages and finished well to have four goals in the first half. Liam Jeffs did some nice things and looks like a good big bodied inside type. Liked his composure in traffic.

Semi final double header at IKON next Sunday. The second in particular I expect to be a beauty:

Sunday September 13

IKON Park

Semi Final

11:15am: Murray Bushrangers v Oakleigh Chargers

Semi Final

2pm: Geelong Falcons v Eastern Ranges

[dazzledavey36 54,194]

Jakey Lovett did some nice things today. At least in my mind I consider him a definite draft able and hope we pick him up (3rd round onward would be appropriate).

The hanger was a beauty, got a great ride, juggled it on the way down, but held on at the third attempt. Scores were level at the time, and his kick inside 50 resulted in a free kick for Dandy which resulted in the match winning goal.

Is there a certain player in the AFL he reminds you off chase? I have never seen him play at all.

[ChaserJ 4,992]

Is there a certain player in the AFL he reminds you off chase? I have never seen him play at all.

At this stage his cleanness and calmness in traffic remind a little bit of his old man, but he has more mobility and clearly can jump a little bit higher than Brett. Jakes handball isn't quite in Brett's class though.

His tank isn't great, so will start on a flank somewhere and has a neat left foot kick which is decent to 45ish metres.

Can't think of any contemporary like for like players style wise, but if one comes to mind I'll post.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I can't agree on this. It takes work, yes, but it can be done. Like anything it's a matter of constant drilling until it becomes a natural action. We should have a professional kicking coach to work with each player and totally eliminate the up-and-under kick that is such a blight on our play.

Talking within the context of an AFL player's average time in the game, no it can't be changed much.

Spencer for example. Fitzpatrick, McKenzie, Bail, Garland, McDonald etc...

What can change is decision making.

The Hawthorn side alone should be evidence enough.

Disagree with the majority of this.

I played junior footy with James all through my younger life and he won club and league best and fairests every year. The premise that he wasn't a natural footballer is false, he was a great runner because he trained so hard for his footy.

Furthermore, if Melbourne hadn't selected him at 19, WC would've at 20. The way the cards fell, we ended up with him and the Eagles with Shuey which has been particularly beneficial for them. Who knows what Luke would've been like at MFC or James would've been like in a different environment.

You've mentioned AVB who has been a revelation for his tackle pressure but his skills are not even close to AFL standard. He's had a large number of critical errors by hand and foot that show why he's taken until 24 to be drafted. Thankfully his appetite for tackling and contested footy makes up for some deficiencies.

AFL Drafting like all sports will always include some risk of drafting players who clubs think will develop into the best player. Some will make it, some will not. Unfortunately for us, in the last 10 years far far too many have not. It appears we are starting to see that change.

I also played junior footy with a number of great players who seemed to dominate and win B&F's every year yet none of them played AFL.

He is a great runner because he is naturally athletically gifted. He has good genes. Sure he worked at it, but he's a 'naturally' good runner. Are you telling me he's a good runner because he trained so hard at junior level?

I'm talking about the age at which he was drafted. 18. And the skill-set he possessed then that thrust him into elite teams being the Charges and then Vic Metro.

I still beg to differ about where recruiters had him. West Coast may have had him going there, there were others that had him outside the top 30.

I agree about the environment though, I agree it would have made a difference.

As for AVB, his skills are actually fine. Kicking is not elite, but he's smart and makes the right decisions. Maybe revisit some of the games he featured in this year. Suggesting they're 'not even close' to AFL standard is complete tripe. My argument is that AVB is a more complete player as far as measuring 'footballing specific' skills go.

Whilst he is not considered an elite user of the ball or 'runner', he has a much more well-rounded and even group of football-specific attributes which make for a player who is able to impact regularly. Vandenberg doesn't need to wait for possession on the 'outside' to be able to use his 'skills'. He can impact by contesting, overhead marking, using his smarts and vision if he does receive free ball etc etc. Part of the reason we got so many draft picks wrong over those years was because we picked players who had one or two 'standout' or 'elite' attributes but the rest were less than impressive.

Blease

Morton

Strauss

Maric

Cook

Watts

All of these guys possessed one or two 'specialised' attributes and the rest were questionable.

Our recruiting under the new guard has seen us draft players with a much greater balance of attributes.