Training - Friday 13th February, 2015

[rjay 24,887]

I guess I see Jack as developing into the role and player typified by Burgoyne at the Hawks, with the ability to also play up forward. Surround him with good inside mids, put him in space with a disciplined forward line moving for him and his smarts and delivery will hurt teams. The fact that he's working so hard on his engine will see him up in "red time" and pushing at the end.

He will win games for us in 2015.

Burgoyne is a big stretch...he is as good inside as out, a great natural mid at centre bounce downs and one of the best tackles in the AFL.

I think Jack will be a floating forward, pushing up to the wing/hb as required.

[Whispering_Jack 29,812]

You do not hold an official position within Demonland, you do not decide what is relevant. I will discuss what I believe is relevant. If it is not relevant to you then you have the right to stop reading.

You cannot make determinations on what can be discussed.

Same goes for all topics.

Then we might be able to keep these threads on track.

Mods feel free to delete my posts. If people are discussing the MFC according to the code of conduct I can't see how another poster can make determinations on what can or cannot be discussed.

You're right jabber - the mods are the only ones who can make determinations on what can be discussed.

My view is that on the actual training day, the discussion should centre around that day's events and the reports about them i.e stick as closely to topic as is reasonable in the circumstances.

On days following, I would generally take a more lax approach but I would prefer if people are say, going to discuss former players like Morton, that the discussion be kept in context - e.g a comparison of the way training is conducted these days to the days when Morton was at the club which at least makes it relevant to the topic.

Otherwise, if you must depart from the topic you can do what Rose C. G advises and start a different thread.

And of course in any event, could everyone please show a bit of respect for others and leave the abuse for the Darth Vaders who play or coach opposition clubs or the media who bag us.

[Slartibartfast 17,197]

I was being presumptuous. Which of those players do you not believe is more important than Watts to our future success?

It's an interesting topic and my point is to highlight that Jack Watts gets attention and hand-wringing over and above his importance to the team and its future - both immediate and medium term.

Watts offers things most of those players don't. His success would be invaluable to our success.

That's my opinion. We don't all agree.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Watts offers things most of those players don't. His success would be invaluable to our success.

That's my opinion. We don't all agree.

Off topic..new thread WJ?

[Whispering_Jack 29,812]

Watts offers things most of those players don't. His success would be invaluable to our success.

That's my opinion. We don't all agree.

Since he came to the club as coach, I've always believed that Roos will either make or break Jack Watts who is now at the right time of his career to show what he's made of and in particular if has something to offer the club - if he doesn't do it this year after two seasons under Roos, then I think he will be on the trade table.

I look at it in a similar vein to the position of Bryce Gibbs at Carlton last year in his second season under Malthouse when he finally stood up after his ability to justify his #1 draft position was continually under question at his club.

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

Burgoyne is a big stretch...he is as good inside as out, a great natural mid at centre bounce downs and one of the best tackles in the AFL.

I think Jack will be a floating forward, pushing up to the wing/hb as required.

I am with you rjay, I am one of Watts's biggest fans, but he will never be a Burgoyne, I think he is more of a Goddard type (the posts here on Watts bear a striking resemblance to the first 4 or 5 years for Goddard on the Saints boards), a floater who can read the game and fill in either front or back

[Whispering_Jack 29,812]

Off topic..new thread WJ?

Why? Jack Watts is still on our list and turns up to training, doesn't he?

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Can we drop the Morton chat, otherwise the topic will degenerate into a historical whinge fest again

I have attended every training session and have been impressed with the improvement in skill level

Whether it will transfer to game day, who knows?, saying that the belief seems to be back

Matt Jones is 'liked; by Roos, his place in the team is his to lose, whether supporters like it or not

As for the injuries Watts is doing miles and miles of running, assume they are strengthening his core, Vince has a hamstring issue,, being conservative with him, Howe is right on track for the advertised return, ie 2 weeks, not sure with King, leave it at that

I was the one who brought up Morton in relation to Jones and how he has been training. I made the comparison that both could run to the right spot and make space, but both lack the right skill set to finish it off and make correct decisions. I think mentioning Morton, in that context, was valid.

And I am sure you have attended every training session. Those of us with jobs can't be so lucky, but that still doesn't make you the messiah when it comes to best 22. If being a Melbourne fan over the last decade has taught us anything then it's that we can't put much stock in training - how many times has someone improved their skill level or worked hard etc at training, only to be a huge let down come the season proper? Too many times to count in my book.

From where I sit, and going by what I've seen of someone like Matt Jones on match day and not during simulated training sessions where there is little pressure, is that if he is in our best 22 then we aren't going forward as a club. By now we should have more than enough talent and skill level on our list that makes Jones, a guy who works hard to get the best out of himself, no more than a depth player. I'd be worried if it were otherwise, but I'm more than happy to have him on our list in that role as his commitment levels have always been terrific.

I'm always stoked to hear that the intensity, belief etc is well and truly up and that the standards and expectations have risen. It's fantastic. But to make sweeping statements about players and how much their skill level has risen is going way, way over the top. Like I said, if Matt Jones is in the best 22 then as a supporter I would be a little worried.

[angrydee 842]

I was the one who brought up Morton in relation to Jones and how he has been training. I made the comparison that both could run to the right spot and make space, but both lack the right skill set to finish it off and make correct decisions. I think mentioning Morton, in that context, was valid.

And I am sure you have attended every training session. Those of us with jobs can't be so lucky, but that still doesn't make you the messiah when it comes to best 22. If being a Melbourne fan over the last decade has taught us anything then it's that we can't put much stock in training - how many times has someone improved their skill level or worked hard etc at training, only to be a huge let down come the season proper? Too many times to count in my book.

From where I sit, and going by what I've seen of someone like Matt Jones on match day and not during simulated training sessions where there is little pressure, is that if he is in our best 22 then we aren't going forward as a club. By now we should have more than enough talent and skill level on our list that makes Jones, a guy who works hard to get the best out of himself, no more than a depth player. I'd be worried if it were otherwise, but I'm more than happy to have him on our list in that role as his commitment levels have always been terrific.

I'm always stoked to hear that the intensity, belief etc is well and truly up and that the standards and expectations have risen. It's fantastic. But to make sweeping statements about players and how much their skill level has risen is going way, way over the top. Like I said, if Matt Jones is in the best 22 then as a supporter I would be a little worried.

You and me both

[dazzledavey36 54,292]

I was the one who brought up Morton in relation to Jones and how he has been training. I made the comparison that both could run to the right spot and make space, but both lack the right skill set to finish it off and make correct decisions. I think mentioning Morton, in that context, was valid.

And I am sure you have attended every training session. Those of us with jobs can't be so lucky, but that still doesn't make you the messiah when it comes to best 22. If being a Melbourne fan over the last decade has taught us anything then it's that we can't put much stock in training - how many times has someone improved their skill level or worked hard etc at training, only to be a huge let down come the season proper? Too many times to count in my book.

From where I sit, and going by what I've seen of someone like Matt Jones on match day and not during simulated training sessions where there is little pressure, is that if he is in our best 22 then we aren't going forward as a club. By now we should have more than enough talent and skill level on our list that makes Jones, a guy who works hard to get the best out of himself, no more than a depth player. I'd be worried if it were otherwise, but I'm more than happy to have him on our list in that role as his commitment levels have always been terrific.

I'm always stoked to hear that the intensity, belief etc is well and truly up and that the standards and expectations have risen. It's fantastic. But to make sweeping statements about players and how much their skill level has risen is going way, way over the top. Like I said, if Matt Jones is in the best 22 then as a supporter I would be a little worried.

You speak on behalf of me and any others on this one too Wiseblood.

Bravo

Edited February 14, 2015 by dazzledavey36

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

I was the one who brought up Morton in relation to Jones and how he has been training. I made the comparison that both could run to the right spot and make space, but both lack the right skill set to finish it off and make correct decisions. I think mentioning Morton, in that context, was valid.

And I am sure you have attended every training session. Those of us with jobs can't be so lucky, but that still doesn't make you the messiah when it comes to best 22. If being a Melbourne fan over the last decade has taught us anything then it's that we can't put much stock in training - how many times has someone improved their skill level or worked hard etc at training, only to be a huge let down come the season proper? Too many times to count in my book.

From where I sit, and going by what I've seen of someone like Matt Jones on match day and not during simulated training sessions where there is little pressure, is that if he is in our best 22 then we aren't going forward as a club. By now we should have more than enough talent and skill level on our list that makes Jones, a guy who works hard to get the best out of himself, no more than a depth player. I'd be worried if it were otherwise, but I'm more than happy to have him on our list in that role as his commitment levels have always been terrific.

I'm always stoked to hear that the intensity, belief etc is well and truly up and that the standards and expectations have risen. It's fantastic. But to make sweeping statements about players and how much their skill level has risen is going way, way over the top. Like I said, if Matt Jones is in the best 22 then as a supporter I would be a little worried.

I stopped reading your posts a month or so ago, but thought I would answer this, obviously you don't read my training reports closely enough, I have consistently reported that in my opinion everything seems to have improved, skills, running, fitness etc......but then again I am like everybody else I have no idea whether this will translate onto game day

I think the improvement if it does occur won't suddenly transfer us into a finals team, I thought maybe 6 or 7 wins at the most

I only go to training because I was made redundant and because a lot of people can't get to training I could provide a bit of regular info and photos, find me a job and the reports will stop if that's what you want

I just find it rather risible but understandable that a lot of posters on here steadfastly refuse to believe that players can improve, they want to ditch them and bring in some new meat.....and then when a player 'suddenly' becomes a better player it makes them look rather foolish....examples being Dunn and Jetta in the last year or two and our captain Nathan Jones over a longer length of time

I could even add the Tyson trade, strange how that turned out, a guy who spent the first couple of years of his career injured, yet with good coaching and development....well

On Matt Jones, he has got another full pre season under this belt, he is at the age where he should be at the top of his game, if he gets in the 22, I expect him to be one of our better players this year

[Wiseblood 24,637]

I stopped reading your posts a month or so ago, but thought I would answer this, obviously you don't read my training reports closely enough, I have consistently reported that in my opinion everything seems to have improved, skills, running, fitness etc......but then again I am like everybody else I have no idea whether this will translate onto game day

I think the improvement if it does occur won't suddenly transfer us into a finals team, I thought maybe 6 or 7 wins at the most

I only go to training because I was made redundant and because a lot of people can't get to training I could provide a bit of regular info and photos, find me a job and the reports will stop if that's what you want

I just find it rather risible but understandable that a lot of posters on here steadfastly refuse to believe that players can improve, they want to ditch them and bring in some new meat.....and then when a player 'suddenly' becomes a better player it makes them look rather foolish....examples being Dunn and Jetta in the last year or two and our captain Nathan Jones over a longer length of time

I don't read your training reports at all, I read the others. The only reason I commented back to you was your assertion that Jones would have to play himself out of the side, and then a few posts later you said Roos wanted "22 damaging kicks". I was commenting on the irony in this, as if Roos wants this in place (and it's as if you sit down with him at each session and get this out of him the way you talk about it, which you don't, so stop talking as if you do) then M. Jones can't be in the side.

At no point have I said players cannot improve. However, guys like Dunn and Jetta have always had a certain level of skill set that has allowed them to improve and stay on the list when others, like a Dan Nicholson, are cut. He was a great trainer, a great runner... and he couldn't improve his kicking and decision making, which meant that the modern game was too much for him. I see the same in Matt Jones. He wouldn't get a run in any side within the Top 14 clubs from last year. He turns the ball over and makes bad decisions on a consistent basis. I'd love to see him somehow improve, and I can handle looking 'foolish' as you put it, but I don't see it happening. Training can only get out of players what they are capable of, and M. Jones has reached his peak for me.

[dazzledavey36 54,292]

I stopped reading your posts a month or so ago, but thought I would answer this, obviously you don't read my training reports closely enough, I have consistently reported that in my opinion everything seems to have improved, skills, running, fitness etc......but then again I am like everybody else I have no idea whether this will translate onto game day

I think the improvement if it does occur won't suddenly transfer us into a finals team, I thought maybe 6 or 7 wins at the most

I only go to training because I was made redundant and because a lot of people can't get to training I could provide a bit of regular info and photos, find me a job and the reports will stop if that's what you want

I just find it rather risible but understandable that a lot of posters on here steadfastly refuse to believe that players can improve, they want to ditch them and bring in some new meat.....and then when a player 'suddenly' becomes a better player it makes them look rather foolish....examples being Dunn and Jetta in the last year or two and our captain Nathan Jones over a longer length of time

No offence Saty but you have named Jetta and Dunn as two players that you say make a lot of us look foolish. To some degree that is correct. There were some that still had belief in jetta but injuries were always his problem. The Dunn one is probably a good example.

But for every Jetta and Dunn there is a Strauss, Blease, Morton, Tapscott, Cook, Gysberts that most on here said that these guys wouldn't improve or make it as an AFL player.

Don't underestimate some of the supporters opinion on certain players.

[Freddy Fuschia 735]

Time will tell as to who's right on Matt Jones. I'm one of those who believes that if everyone was available and at the top of his game, Jones might struggle to get into the best 22 and I would go so far as to say, I would prefer to put game time into some of our younger players if the choice became necessary.

Meanwhile, a few posters here can go on being precious and blissfully refusing to read each others' reports, I'll read as much as I can and make up my own mind as one not fortunate enough to have the time to get to training in person.

I therefore appreciate the efforts of everyone who takes the trouble to offer their reports.

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

I don't read your training reports at all, I read the others. The only reason I commented back to you was your assertion that Jones would have to play himself out of the side, and then a few posts later you said Roos wanted "22 damaging kicks". I was commenting on the irony in this, as if Roos wants this in place (and it's as if you sit down with him at each session and get this out of him the way you talk about it, which you don't, so stop talking as if you do) then M. Jones can't be in the side.

At no point have I said players cannot improve. However, guys like Dunn and Jetta have always had a certain level of skill set that has allowed them to improve and stay on the list when others, like a Dan Nicholson, are cut. He was a great trainer, a great runner... and he couldn't improve his kicking and decision making, which meant that the modern game was too much for him. I see the same in Matt Jones. He wouldn't get a run in any side within the Top 14 clubs from last year. He turns the ball over and makes bad decisions on a consistent basis. I'd love to see him somehow improve, and I can handle looking 'foolish' as you put it, but I don't see it happening. Training can only get out of players what they are capable of, and M. Jones has reached his peak for me.

So I am the Messiah, and you don't even read the tablets of stone I send down from the mountain top, how can you comment on what I am writing then?

Roos is trying to make every player in the squad a good kick, that's what we need, hopefully all the practice translates to game day

I hate to remind you but Nev Jetta was delisted to wild cheers on here, agree about Nicholson, and he was cut, because he couldn't go to another level, then explain why Roh Bail and Dean Terlich were given new contracts, two more supposedly poorly skilled footballers, we could have dumped them and got in fresh meat

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I just find it rather risible but understandable that a lot of posters on here steadfastly refuse to believe that players can improve, they want to ditch them and bring in some new meat..

I see the same in Matt Jones. He wouldn't get a run in any side within the Top 14 clubs from last year. He turns the ball over and makes bad decisions on a consistent basis. I'd love to see him somehow improve, and I can handle looking 'foolish' as you put it, but I don't see it happening. Training can only get out of players what they are capable of, and M. Jones has reached his peak for me.

Matt Jones plays a role that we sorely need which elevates his importance in relation to his abilities.

If we are going to be the team that we all want us to be he needs to improve markedly or be overtaken. I think both are equally plausible possibilities.

Then you could say that about another dozen players.

Edited February 14, 2015 by jabberwocky

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

No offence Saty but you have named Jetta and Dunn as two players that you say make a lot of us look foolish. To some degree that is correct. There were some that still had belief in jetta but injuries were always his problem. The Dunn one is probably a good example.

But for every Jetta and Dunn there is a Strauss, Blease, Morton, Tapscott, Cook, Gysberts that most on here said that these guys wouldn't improve or make it as an AFL player.

Don't underestimate some of the supporters opinion on certain players.

I understand that, I actually reported Blease's lack of defensive efforts last year from Casey games and got lambasted for it, he was a 'darling' rather than a 'dill'

if I see something 'poor' I report it.

As for Jetta, when he was delisted it was greeted with cheers on here, and if you type in Dunn and spud in the search box, see how many topcis it brings up, so don't kid yourself about how either player was perceived

[Wiseblood 24,637]

So I am the Messiah, and you don't even read the tablets of stone I send down from the mountain top, how can you comment on what I am writing then?

Roos is trying to make every player in the squad a good kick, that's what we need, hopefully all the practice translates to game day

I hate to remind you but Nev Jetta was delisted to wild cheers on here, agree about Nicholson, and he was cut, because he couldn't go to another level, then explain why Roh Bail and Dean Terlich were given new contracts, two more supposedly poorly skilled footballers, we could have dumped them and got in fresh meat

I called you the Messiah a post ago, but that's okay. I guess you're just a very naughty boy.

Every coach wants players to be good kicks. Doesn't mean they will be.

And I hate to remind you that the Jetta example is awful. I know you love him, and I mean LOVE him, but he wad delisted due to injuries and not being able to have a proper run at it. His delisting was justified, as was his eventual promotion back to the senior list. As I mentioned, but you overlooked, he had the skills already in place - he just needed to have the luck with injuries, and when he did he made good on it. M. Jones has at no point struggled with injuries - he has just struggled with the skills of kicking and making the right decisions, things that are so much harder to teach.

And as a side note, I don't mind Ro Bail but I was baffled, like so many others, as to why Dean Terlich got another contract.

[Brayshaw Self 847]

Matt Jones is our only true midfielder with any speed.

[dazzledavey36 54,292]

I understand that, I actually reported Blease's lack of defensive efforts last year from Casey games and got lambasted for it, he was a 'darling' rather than a 'dill'

if I see something 'poor' I report it.

As for Jetta, when he was delisted it was greeted with cheers on here, and if you type in Dunn and spud in the search box, see how many topcis it brings up, so don't kid yourself about how either player was perceived

Come off it mate where are the cheers in this thread then?

http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/35541-neville-jetta-delisted/

As I said majority of us wanted Jetta to make it. We were all fan of his but injuries played a big part which also resulted in form.

Don't make out as if you were the only one that never doubted Jetta.

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

I called you the Messiah a post ago, but that's okay. I guess you're just a very naughty boy.

Every coach wants players to be good kicks. Doesn't mean they will be.

And I hate to remind you that the Jetta example is awful. I know you love him, and I mean LOVE him, but he wad delisted due to injuries and not being able to have a proper run at it. His delisting was justified, as was his eventual promotion back to the senior list. As I mentioned, but you overlooked, he had the skills already in place - he just needed to have the luck with injuries, and when he did he made good on it. M. Jones has at no point struggled with injuries - he has just struggled with the skills of kicking and making the right decisions, things that are so much harder to teach.

And as a side note, I don't mind Ro Bail but I was baffled, like so many others, as to why Dean Terlich got another contract.

I called you the Messiah a post ago, but that's okay. I guess you're just a very naughty boy.

Every coach wants players to be good kicks. Doesn't mean they will be.

And I hate to remind you that the Jetta example is awful. I know you love him, and I mean LOVE him, but he wad delisted due to injuries and not being able to have a proper run at it. His delisting was justified, as was his eventual promotion back to the senior list. As I mentioned, but you overlooked, he had the skills already in place - he just needed to have the luck with injuries, and when he did he made good on it. M. Jones has at no point struggled with injuries - he has just struggled with the skills of kicking and making the right decisions, things that are so much harder to teach.

And as a side note, I don't mind Ro Bail but I was baffled, like so many others, as to why Dean Terlich got another contract.

I don't LOVE him chap, will use your overstatement, I have a lovely lady for that, being Valentine's Day and all, I have chatted to him since Family Day at Casey in the year he was first drafted, he is a very good student of footy, his delisting wasn't justified, but it was explained to him they wanted a spot for another midfielder and he would be rookied to ensure he had another go at it, he didn't sulk and tell them to stick it or move on, I respect him for all the bloody injuries he has got through and the efforts he has made to get back on the list

Terlich got a contract because Roos gave it to him

[jnrmac 20,055]

I wonder how Cale Morton would have gone if Paul Roos got hold of him a few years ago instead of a bloke like Neeld...

I still think he could have been a good player, but was mismanaged.

Dont start that crud again. He refused to play to a team plan, would play 4-8m away from his man and fail to pick them up when we didn't have the ball. The day he pretty much cost a game when we surging and he kicked into the centre from the HB flank rather than around the boundary was the clincher. No brain for footy, too much ego, not enough hard work.

Yeah Neeld is an easy target but in this case it wasn't his fault. Gifted 70+ games and showed glimpses of being able to pick up some possessions but largely was a huge bust.

Carry on with the training thread...

[The Devil Inside 2,147]

Come off it mate where are the cheers in this thread then?

http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/35541-neville-jetta-delisted/

As I said majority of us wanted Jetta to make it. We were all fan of his but injuries played a big part which also resulted in form.

Don't make out as if you were the only one that never doubted Jetta.

I am not making that out, if you read all the posts the general consensus was he was no loss and would have never have made it

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Think you will find he was just about cooked when he got to West Coast

If he was any good he would have improved at West Coast.

He wasn't any good.

[rpfc 28,265]

I am not making that out, if you read all the posts the general consensus was he was no loss and would have never have made it

That's not true.

The 'consensus' was more disappointment that a player of his toughness couldn't make it, and then there was a desire for him to be rookied - the rest is history.

No-one on here wishes the players ill-will, and we all hope they can become a consistent Demon. But they have their deficiencies and their bad luck and some players work through them and some don't. And some just shouldn't have been chosen to be AFL players.