Not really.

And meanwhile over on "Ology" the debate Hots up!

From an ology poster!

Toumpas is slower than even Brock McLean because his hips are shot to bits. The club knew about his hip problems before the draft but drafted him anyway. Meanwhile Wines has been tearing his opponents a new one every time he plays. This might be the worst recruiting blunder of them all, which is saying a lot - worse than Watts over Natanui, worse than Trengove over Martin, worse than Cook over Darling. With those blunders, there were excuses. With Toumpas, there is no excuse.

Hnmm interesting comments

Pretty fair assesment on the last 7 years really.

I remember playing Geelong on a Friday night i 2008. We kicked 1 goal in the first half.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED in 7 seasons....

And meanwhile over on "Ology" the debate Hots up!

From an ology poster!

Toumpas is slower than even Brock McLean because his hips are shot to bits. The club knew about his hip problems before the draft but drafted him anyway. Meanwhile Wines has been tearing his opponents a new one every time he plays. This might be the worst recruiting blunder of them all, which is saying a lot - worse than Watts over Natanui, worse than Trengove over Martin, worse than Cook over Darling. With those blunders, there were excuses. With Toumpas, there is no excuse.

Hnmm interesting comments

Replace the words "hip problems" with "shoulders problem" and you've got exactly the same scenario with Chris Judd. West Coast knew about his shoulder problems and drafted him anyway (coincidentally at pick 3). Did they make the wrong decision?

And meanwhile over on "Ology" the debate Hots up!

From an ology poster!

Toumpas is slower than even Brock McLean because his hips are shot to bits. The club knew about his hip problems before the draft but drafted him anyway. Meanwhile Wines has been tearing his opponents a new one every time he plays. This might be the worst recruiting blunder of them all, which is saying a lot - worse than Watts over Natanui, worse than Trengove over Martin, worse than Cook over Darling. With those blunders, there were excuses. With Toumpas, there is no excuse.

Hnmm interesting comments

to be fair on the weekend Wines had 4 more touches and one more goal then Toumpas, wines played in a team that won easily, and Toumpas in a team that got flogged.

Replace the words "hip problems" with "shoulders problem" and you've got exactly the same scenario with Chris Judd. West Coast knew about his shoulder problems and drafted him anyway (coincidentally at pick 3). Did they make the wrong decision?

a human does not run or accelerate using the shoulders last time i looked.

And meanwhile over on "Ology" the debate Hots up!

From an ology poster!

Toumpas is slower than even Brock McLean because his hips are shot to bits. The club knew about his hip problems before the draft but drafted him anyway. Meanwhile Wines has been tearing his opponents a new one every time he plays. This might be the worst recruiting blunder of them all, which is saying a lot - worse than Watts over Natanui, worse than Trengove over Martin, worse than Cook over Darling. With those blunders, there were excuses. With Toumpas, there is no excuse.

Hnmm interesting comments

100% agree, his hips were shot to bits, he looked ordinary in the under 18's prior to drafting him - and MFC bought into the hype.

MFC should believe what they see in the champs. Believe Martin was head and shoulders above the others, believe Wines was a beast, your eyes do not lie.

Instead, MFC goes on hype, our picks are dictated by other clubs - just on what they say.

If we ever had a recruiter who called it as he seen it, we'd of had Martin, Wines, Darling, Sloane and a raft of others.

Instead we pick players on hype on what they COULD do - not what they are doing, it is right in front of you.. Wines is carving it up in the champs, don't overlook the kid for a 'could be champion'.

100% agree, his hips were shot to bits, he looked ordinary in the under 18's prior to drafting him - and MFC bought into the hype.

MFC should believe what they see in the champs. Believe Martin was head and shoulders above the others, believe Wines was a beast, your eyes do not lie.

Instead, MFC goes on hype, our picks are dictated by other clubs - just on what they say.

If we ever had a recruiter who called it as he seen it, we'd of had Martin, Wines, Darling, Sloane and a raft of others.

Instead we pick players on hype on what they COULD do - not what they are doing, it is right in front of you.. Wines is carving it up in the champs, don't overlook the kid for a 'could be champian

Todd Viney watched Ollie Wines grow up, but he also had alot to do with Jimmy Toumpas through Junior footy, there is noone more qualified to have made the decision than him.

having said that, there were rumours that he wanted Ollie Desperately and Neeld overruled him.

but Toumpas had 2 very good years of senior footy before he was drafted so it's abit surprising he seems out of place with bigger bodies.

Replace the words "hip problems" with "shoulders problem" and you've got exactly the same scenario with Chris Judd. West Coast knew about his shoulder problems and drafted him anyway (coincidentally at pick 3). Did they make the wrong decision?

Judd was cut from a different cloth to anything we've seen in recent times - even as a junior.

Judd won everything rising through the ranks, he was an enigma.

His strengths were his speed and explosiveness, a shoulder injury was not going to take away from those strengths.

Toumpas bung hips have left us with nothing more than a list clogger.

The writing was on the wall.. I have no doubt Todd Viney would've been against this.

I'd love to have a yarn to him one day and find out why we overlooked the obvious.

I think Toumpas' first couple of games in his second season have been far from all doom and gloom.

He's developing at an okay rate and I think we knew what we were getting with him. His skills are great and his pace isn't as bad as some on here are claiming. He'll be okay for us.

Having said that, I was keen on Wines the whole time and in hindsight he'd be preferable, but I still think we've got a decent player on our hands with Jimmy T.

My point wasn't that bad shoulders somehow slow someone down. Rather, that clubs make decisions all the time about players with known pre-existing conditions and have to make a judgement call about whether that condition lowers the player's place in the draft or trade table of values.

And just to add to the point, Dermott Brereton who was involved with Hawthorn at the time of Judd's recruitment has publicly stated that Hawthorn would have taken him with pick 1 in 2000* except that he was too young but decided not to do so when they had pick 1 in 2001 because of his shoulders.

*Note: I know Hawthorn didn't have pick 1 in 2000. But perhaps they may have traded for it if Judd had been available - just like they did for Luke Hodge the following year.

Jimmy Toumpas played well yesterday. He's getting the pace of the game with each outing, is creative, clever with his disposals, and has a great tank for a kid his age. The negative absolutism on here in savaging someone who has played a handful of games for a rubbish team is just pathetic. As our youngest 2 players (excl JKH) out there, he and Dom Tyson showed a lot yesterday. Many of the comments on here are simply embarrassing.

Jimmy Toumpas played well yesterday. He's getting the pace of the game with each outing, is creative, clever with his disposals, and has a great tank for a kid his age. The negative absolutism on here in savaging someone who has played a handful of games for a rubbish team is just pathetic. As our youngest 2 players (excl JKH) out there, he and Dom Tyson showed a lot yesterday. Many of the comments on here are simply embarrassing.

Pathetic but perpetual.

biggest problem drafting players from the u18 comp is they don't play the same style of footy as the afl

they don't flood, zone or play defensive football (under instructions i believe)

they are more into attractive offensive footy without the negative tactics of senior footy and are thus often unprepared when they step up to afl

drafting u18s in the present setup is too much of a lottery

Instead, MFC goes on hype, our picks are dictated by other clubs - just on what they say.

Ah, not quite. I wish we went on hype then we may not have made random selections such as Gysberts & Cook

Jimmy Toumpas played well yesterday. He's getting the pace of the game with each outing, is creative, clever with his disposals, and has a great tank for a kid his age. The negative absolutism on here in savaging someone who has played a handful of games for a rubbish team is just pathetic. As our youngest 2 players (excl JKH) out there, he and Dom Tyson showed a lot yesterday. Many of the comments on here are simply embarrassing.

Well said. As others have mentioned before, in a good club he would earn his stripes in the VFL over his first 2 or 3 years. We sadly have never had that luxury so he finds himself chucked into the team and expected to perform to a level higher than those around him. It is massively unfair on these kids we draft.

Wines, Dunstan etc are man child material with physically better prepared bodies for immediate impact but it remains to be seen if they blossom from here or if this is there ceiling.

biggest problem drafting players from the u18 comp is they don't play the same style of footy as the afl

they don't flood, zone or play defensive football (under instructions i believe)

they are more into attractive offensive footy without the negative tactics of senior footy and are thus often unprepared when they step up to afl

drafting u18s in the present setup is too much of a lottery

Very good point. Even the coaches acknowledge there's no emphasis on defensive tactics and that the competition is not based on winning premierships.

There is also a rule stating they must keep I think 2 players in the fwd 50 at all times.

I honestly believe the draft age should be 20.

Very good point. Even the coaches acknowledge there's no emphasis on defensive tactics and that the competition is not based on winning premierships.

There is also a rule stating they must keep I think 2 players in the fwd 50 at all times.

I honestly believe the draft age should be 20.

i think the problem with 20 is that they have then left school for 2 years and are starting to build careers and may think twice whether they continue into professional afl footy.

to do it i think you would need an elite well funded u21 competition. You'd still have to allow 18yo's to be drafted but they would have to compete against the older u21's

however i don't our population is big enough to support elite-u18, elite-u21, AFL and all the state leagues

Gotta give the Toump a break! Bugger me, he is only 2 games into his second season. At least give him time to prove he is no good before we write him off. Still a boy amongst men.

His chase on Cripps yesterday highlighted how much of a liability his lack of pace is.

i think the problem with 20 is that they have then left school for 2 years and are starting to build careers and may think twice whether they continue into professional afl footy.

to do it i think you would need an elite well funded u21 competition. You'd still have to allow 18yo's to be drafted but they would have to compete against the older u21's

however i don't our population is big enough to support elite-u18, elite-u21, AFL and all the state leagues

I honestly reckon the old club U19 comp was the best idea.. Played before the main game. Either make TAC cup a 2 tier comp U17 and U19 then to draft or as you say a elite U21 comp.

i think the problem with 20 is that they have then left school for 2 years and are starting to build careers and may think twice whether they continue into professional afl footy.

to do it i think you would need an elite well funded u21 competition. You'd still have to allow 18yo's to be drafted but they would have to compete against the older u21's

however i don't our population is big enough to support elite-u18, elite-u21, AFL and all the state leagues

I reckon they should be drafted at 16 and have the opportunity to develop at the club for 2 years, this would help players settle into the AFL lifestyle and allow them to develop in an elite organisation

I reckon they should be drafted at 16 and have the opportunity to develop at the club for 2 years, this would help players settle into the AFL lifestyle and allow them to develop in an elite organisation

No. They should finish year 12 before they are drafted. Education is important - particularly for the many who, for whatever reason, don't last long in the AFL system.

I must be watching a different game of Toumps, because I reckon he's been alright in the first couple of games. He is one of very few who actually leads hard and doesn't give up after 5 steps. He doubles back and tries again unlike 90% of the team.

This debate of Wines vs Toumpas is old and pointless, it also colours everyones expectations of him. The club didn't expect him to star in his first year, and so far he has shown good signs for the future IMO. He is the least of my worries.

There were heaps worse than Toumpas yesterday. Leave him alone.

No. They should finish year 12 before they are drafted. Education is important - particularly for the many who, for whatever reason, don't last long in the AFL system.

Absolutely no reason a player couldn't complete year 11 and 12 at the teams expense, i think you'll find alot of players do.