POST MATCH DISCUSSION

[DeeSpencer 24,808]

I definitely agree with all of this except for Jones not being a clearance mid. I believe he is, though shouldn't be our go to man to clear the ball from stoppages. He is ranked 15th in the league for clearances which is pretty good. The list is linked below and he is in pretty good company.

Looking at that list, a couple of realistic targets for us might be Scott Selwood, Matthew Boyd and Ryan Griffen. I would be ecstatic if we threw the cheque book at Griffen, he'd be a supreme addition to the midfield.

http://www.afl.com.au/stats

I'd like to know what world you live in where Ryan Griffen is a realistic target.

Our second best clearance mid is Viney - he's one part of the answer. I'd argue McKenzie is a better footballer than Nicholson and could provide some help as a tagger at the clearance but after than we need 2 more to replace Sylvia and Rodan. Of course we all know Rodan is filling in time for better players to come through and that's fine. Sylvia is a worry because he really struggles to win clearances against decent sides and it's bad. It's why I think he's better suited to a flank.

I'd be trying to train Trengove up as a clearance player in the off season and work on his explosiveness so he can get in there and win the ball.

Then I'd hit the draft for at least 1 if not 2 players who are adept at winning clearances. Considering we can be pretty selective and aim for midfielders after we go best available with early picks I'd like to spend one pick on a clearance type player even if they aren't best available and if that's an 18 year old I'd also look for a mature ager late in the draft/rookie draft as a replacement for Rodan/Magner or if not available I'd keep the best of that lot.

I'd like to see the centre bounces next year shared between Jones, Viney, McKenzie (or better) tagger who can win a clearance, an improved Trengove, and a mature age recruit/Rodan/Magner with Sylvia and Grimes only rarely in there.

Of course Evans is another option if he can have a strong preseason and develop his power and strength. Matty Jones to me looks more of an outside type who can win his own ball and Toumpas is a few good preseasons away from centre clearance style play I'd think.

[rjay 24,618]

As far as our midfield is concerned, I think it's fair to say we need a clearance specialist. Someone to get their hands on the ball first after a stoppage, especially a centre bounce. Our best mids - N. Jones, Grimes, Trengove - aren't really clearance specialists.

For the Swans, Kennedy got 12 (including 8 centre clearances), O'Keefe & Jack got 7; Hannebery's 4 clearances were all from centre bounces. Our entire team got only 5 centre clearances.

That's why I push for Magner - sure, he's slow and butchers it, but he's the one mid at the club who is even remotely capable of racking up 8 or 10 clearances. The other one of course is Viney, but it's a big ask to expect a first-year player, even one with the his class, to be our clearance machine.

But that's the point about trading and drafting, we need clearance mids rather than link-up mids.

And how do we match the premiers in clearances from stoppages (20 to 21), but get so smashed in centre clearances (5 to 24)? My guess is that for centre bounces, the midfield "team" needs to be much more highly organised - know who's going to run where, , who's going first-in and who's backing up, where the ruck is going to try to hit it etc - while at stoppages it's more improvisation. In other words, the main problem with our midfield may just be that it's not organised enough, which is a coaching issue.

Anyway, there are mids and mids. And if it's clearance skill we need, someone like Daniel Cross may fit the bill, and would be a fairly easy get as he's not going to get games with the Dogs who are trying to put together a young midfield.

It's probably a few things but personal is a big one here, I know there are lots of opinions on Col Silvia and here's mine. Whilst he has the body of a clearance type mid as you call it, he just doesn't have the awareness and vision to play this role. He is much better as a high half forward.

When he is in the middle at centre bounces we are one man down right off.

Just noticing your post above 'old dee' and agree with McLean not with Moloney, he was too selfish a player with us and it's no coincidence that Jones has improved with Moloney not getting much game time last year and not around this year. McLean would have given us the extra experience and muscle we could do with.

[DeeSpencer 24,808]

I suspect we would have got very close today with Moloney and Mclean Out there for the Dees.

Two tragic losses

The only thing tragic about having Moloney out there today would've been the even higher extent of damage done by his opponent going the other way. McLean might have been handy mixing it with the bigger bodies but if we had any idea about development and recruitment we might have had a ready made inside mid winning clearances out there already.

[Deestar3 167]

Moloney is definitely not a loss. I can cop him not getting on with neeld or even respecting him , however he was a senior player who should have at least tried to help his team mates & the younger players around him . Your club & the desire to play for it should have over ridden his angst over neeld. As for McLean he has been an ok player at Carlton, if we had been a bit more astute with our pick no11, we wouldn't even been talking about this. So far out of all the players that have left us ...only Maloney has had an ok season but he certainly wouldn't have made a difference in the win/loss situation at melb. I haven't forgotten the finger pointing, the petulance & the ignominy of the 186 point loss to Geelong. Maloney was intrinsically involved with all of that. In fact McLean & Maloney share similar attributes.....dumb & flat track bullies.

[Macca 16,648]

Stats can often tell a startling tale ...

We've got one player in the top 100 at total contested possessions - Jones (24th)

We've got 2 players in the top 100 at total clearances - Jones (11th) and Matt Jones (87th)

We've got 2 players in the top 100 at total centre clearances - Jones (2nd) and Sylvia (89th)

It's been a similar story for a number of years.

[DeeSpencer 24,808]

want bird or parker.

or both.

When Lyon went to the saints he raided Dempster and Scheider who both were very important to the saints who ended up losing grand finals mainly because they ended up one or two depth players short - see Robert Eddy and Andrew McQualter spudding it up.

Maybe if Roos jumps on he can snatch some of his old teams players for us. Those two would be starting mids for most teams but at Sydney are stuck playing forward/mid due to the dominance of O'Keefe, Jack, Hannebery and Kennedy.

[jumbo returns 6,703]

Stats can often tell a startling tale ...

We've got one player in the top 100 at total contested possessions - Jones (24th)

We've got 2 players in the top 100 at total clearances - Jones (11th) and Matt Jones (87th)

We've got 2 players in the top 100 at total centre clearances - Jones (2nd) and Sylvia (89th)

It's been a similar story for a number of years.

Got a link to these stats, please Macca?

How are you, btw?

[Little Richard 6,216]

When Lyon went to the saints he raided Dempster and Scheider who both were very important to the saints who ended up losing grand finals mainly because they ended up one or two depth players short - see Robert Eddy and Andrew McQualter spudding it up.

Maybe if Roos jumps on he can [censored] some of his old teams players for us. Those two would be starting mids for most teams but at Sydney are stuck playing forward/mid due to the dominance of O'Keefe, Jack, Hannebery and Kennedy.

I think we'd have much more of a chance of picking up Griffen from a side on the way down compared with peeling a player away from Sydney. Who in their right mind would want to leave the best club in the AFL, even if they were just a fringe player? They haven't traded away a half decent player in a long time and good luck trying to entice someone away with money.

[jackaub 1,402]

I suspect we would have got very close today with Moloney and Mclean Out there for the Dees.

Two tragic losses

surely you jest Please tell me you are joking

[jackaub 1,402]

I can only recall two centre clearances for the first three quarters. Both of them got ironic cheers. I reckon we had three in the last quarter.

Adam that was exactly how i saw it

Why not play Magner at least a couple of times see if it works Like Fitzy has been doing at Casey for ages Fitzy earned his go I thought they should have played him much earlier

[rhaz 342]

Stats can often tell a startling tale ...

We've got one player in the top 100 at total contested possessions - Jones (24th)

We've got 2 players in the top 100 at total clearances - Jones (11th) and Matt Jones (87th)

We've got 2 players in the top 100 at total centre clearances - Jones (2nd) and Sylvia (89th)

It's been a similar story for a number of years.

Add some age/games play figures in there too. Right down the bottom.

[jackaub 1,402]

Well, the reigning premiers are a five goal better side than us. Some of our decision making and therefore skill execution was poor, but our ball movement on a number of occasions was excellent. We're using the corridor and taking risks, but still have a mind to defend.

Our midfield let us down again today. We must get two extra experienced mids that can compete and win some inside ball.

I've also worked out what my issue with Terlich is. Despite getting votes on the radio and doing a number of good things, every time he makes a mistake, it results in a goal. So if he makes even five or six errors a game, that means the opposition are usually scoring. Some of his run and carry was important. He reads the play well and when he has some time to think, he is an excellent user by foot. Hopefully he can eradicate these errors from his game or at least where he's making those errors.

Sorry to say we could have had Wines as many here suggested at the time

[Macca 16,648]

Got a link to these stats, please Macca?

How are you, btw?

Always well, JR. Thanks for asking though.

Go to the AFL site - here

You'll then have to click on 'Players' then 'Advanced options' (on the right) . To get the 'other' stats to appear you'll need to get rid of a few (like tap outs or goals/points). It's as simple as ticking or unticking certain boxes.

Then ... to get the actual order, you'll need to click on 'total' (or average)

I've heard that champion data have over 100 different types of stats - to get hold of them costs extra $$$ apparently. The clubs obviously have access to all the numbers.

Hope the above helps (previous seasons can be accessed as well) In 2011 the Cats had 8 players in the top 67 for contested possessions (we had one player)

[Ned 156]

Just changing tack, I watched Craig's press conference after the match. I've observed Neil Craig play/coach since I was 8 years old. I was always found him a solid professional who lacked the spark to go to the top -- at both levels. But the way today he managed to convey how comprehensively outplayed we were, based on the stats, with a positive message on the players willing themselves the whole way through really impressed me. Coaches are sometimes that bit wiser the second time round. I'm really starting to warm to him as our man. I think he is a coach who could help Watts reach his potential. I think the group responds to him. He just seems so right for our club.

[jnrmac 19,908]

Well, the reigning premiers are a five goal better side than us. Some of our decision making and therefore skill execution was poor, but our ball movement on a number of occasions was excellent. We're using the corridor and taking risks, but still have a mind to defend.

Our midfield let us down again today. We must get two extra experienced mids that can compete and win some inside ball.

I've also worked out what my issue with Terlich is. Despite getting votes on the radio and doing a number of good things, every time he makes a mistake, it results in a goal. So if he makes even five or six errors a game, that means the opposition are usually scoring. Some of his run and carry was important. He reads the play well and when he has some time to think, he is an excellent user by foot. Hopefully he can eradicate these errors from his game or at least where he's making those errors.

Don't kid yourself. They are a 12 goal better side. They had an off day kicking for goal.

[Scoop Junior 3,395]

Three things I liked about today

1) Sydney put us under immense heat early, especially in our defensive 50 and we coughed it up a few times which cost us goals. Instead of going into our shells and playing slow, risk-free football, we continued to run, share the ball, take risks and take the game on. It was great to see the players really back themselves to play that way against a strong defensive side. A huge contrast to how we played in the first 11 rounds.

2) Despite there being times in the game when Sydney looked on the verge of streaking away, we held on, gritted our teeth and came back at them. We never looked like winning but we also made sure they never got it all their own way. The second quarter they were well on top of us but we came out after half time and hung in there and then won the last quarter.

3) Scoring 85 points against one of the best defensive teams in the competition was a good effort. When considering how badly we got beaten up out of the centre this makes it an even better effort.

There's no doubt Sydney monstered us out of the centre and were just too good around the ball for us. This is an area we obviously need to get a lot better in and of course had they kicked straight they would have won by a fair bit more. However, the way we ran hard forward, spread, switched the play, retained possession and looked to use each other was an enormous contrast to the side I watched in the first 11 rounds.

It was enjoyable to go to the footy and see some really positive play.

Under Neeld we attacked with almost a defensive focus (that is, our attacking play seemed to be about minimising the chance of a dangerous turnover). But we didn't retain the ball and we didn't make the opposition defend us. At least at the moment we are making the opposition defend when we attack.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Three things I liked about today

1) Sydney put us under immense heat early, especially in our defensive 50 and we coughed it up a few times which cost us goals. Instead of going into our shells and playing slow, risk-free football, we continued to run, share the ball, take risks and take the game on. It was great to see the players really back themselves to play that way against a strong defensive side. A huge contrast to how we played in the first 11 rounds.

2) Despite there being times in the game when Sydney looked on the verge of streaking away, we held on, gritted our teeth and came back at them. We never looked like winning but we also made sure they never got it all their own way. The second quarter they were well on top of us but we came out after half time and hung in there and then won the last quarter.

3) Scoring 85 points against one of the best defensive teams in the competition was a good effort. When considering how badly we got beaten up out of the centre this makes it an even better effort.

There's no doubt Sydney monstered us out of the centre and were just too good around the ball for us. This is an area we obviously need to get a lot better in and of course had they kicked straight they would have won by a fair bit more. However, the way we ran hard forward, spread, switched the play, retained possession and looked to use each other was an enormous contrast to the side I watched in the first 11 rounds.

It was enjoyable to go to the footy and see some really positive play.

Under Neeld we attacked with almost a defensive focus (that is, our attacking play seemed to be about minimising the chance of a dangerous turnover). But we didn't retain the ball and we didn't make the opposition defend us. At least at the moment we are making the opposition defend when we attack.

we actually won the second half by 4 points, kicking 8 goals from 25 inside-50s

they kicked 3 goals in 4 minutes at one stage too, yet they only managed 7 majors for the half

[Little Richard 6,216]

we actually won the second half by 4 points, kicking 8 goals from 25 inside-50s

they kicked 3 goals in 4 minutes at one stage too, yet they only managed 7 majors for the half

Two of those three were gifted from clear frees that weren't given, one being the Tippett holding-the-ball one. Could have ended up a bit closer than it was.

[Deano74 156]

Spot on with Terlich, he continually tries to do too much and turns back in to the pack instead of turning the other way; it is so frustrating seeing him undo most of his good work week after week. Some of the dinky little handpasses to players in worse position were cringeworthy; that applied to al the players.

Dawes was good in the second, he went missing in the first and it may be a huge bump he copped that shook him up and reminded him he was in a game of football.

the Thing with Terlich that he gets the ball and alot. He has played 14 games. There only upside for him. His decision making is only going to improve. He attacks the ball alot like Wrecker Whelan used to, full bore.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Two of those three were gifted from clear frees that weren't given, one being the Tippett holding-the-ball one. Could have ended up a bit closer than it was.

Two of the first three goals they got were as a result of our turnovers and we were chasing tail for the rest of the day after that. We also had two shots at goal that went across the goal face and out on the full, neither shot was difficult.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

the Thing with Terlich that he gets the ball and alot. He has played 14 games. There only upside for him. His decision making is only going to improve. He attacks the ball alot like Wrecker Whelan used to, full bore.

Sometimes a player is a liability with the ball in his hands and sometimes the decision making is always going to be bad.

I hope he turns out ok but I would have to say it scares the [censored] out of me when he has the ball in the back line. It's very frustrating when he turn in to a pack when he has the ball and he's a 50/50 chance of coughing it up.

I also understand that he's new to the AFL and he needs time I hope he turns out to be a star.

Edited July 7, 2013 by RobbieF

[rjay 24,618]

Sometimes a player is a liability with the ball in his hands and sometimes the decision making is always going to be bad.

I hope he turns out ok but I would have to say it scares the [censored] out of me when he has the ball in the back line. It's very frustrating when he turn in to a pack when he has the ball and he's a 50/50 chance of coughing it up.

I also understand that he's new to the AFL and he needs time I hope he turns out to be a star.

'Robbie', I think generally he is pretty good with the ball in his hands. Sometimes he gets caught out because of his own decisions and sometimes because a team mate has sold him short. I think it's great he takes the game on and works hard for his team, the spoil coming off his man against Tippett in the last was a ripper.

A few of our longer serving recruits like Strauss, Jetta, Tapscott to name a few could learn a lot from Terlich and back themselves in to go and get the footy and try to do something with it. More power to him.

[What 18,810]

Don't kid yourself. They are a 12 goal better side. They had an off day kicking for goal.

They got about 10 extra scoring shots directly from umpire charity.

And I am not someone that ever blames umpires.

[DEE fence 4,938]

Have I mentioned heart at all today? We have it, I liked today's game better than last week's win, we were playing the best midfield going around, it should have been a 10 goal loss with all the swannie misses but at the same time the umps cruelled us far too many times.

Terlich is going to be mentioned in the same breath as Pods from the cats.

I'd trade Dawes before Fitzy and I love Dawes.

Clisby, well it was a clanger, but his value has been obvious and worth keeping.

Watts was ripped off, that was not travel, and I want him to try that magic stuff, looks like he was trying to one up Rodan from last week.

Gawn was huge as a relief on the wing taking those marks, but the dude has to fix his disposal, he will end up being another Miller where the opposition will know how to shut him down despite the marks. That said we retained possession a few times under big pressure because we could hit up maxy.

McDonald Did some good body work on Tippett and has good speed for a large guy as well, he will improve his turnovers do hurt though.

Davey and Silvia both look like they are enjoying the game.

Many more positives, but in a game that we could have easily been torched, because that 1st quarter was high pressure we stood tall we showed HEART.

edit got mc donalds name wrong

Edited July 8, 2013 by ingeniokinetic

[DEE fence 4,938]

If we continue to show this sort of improvement under Craig then the job is his if he wants it, wouldn't change for eade or Williams, maybe Roos but anyone who gets our guys going has my vote and would be cautious of more wholesale change. I truly think Neeld's run was without luck but this change is working.