I would argue that it is exactly the opposite, where Toumpas fills a much bigger hole in our list than Wines could fill.

You are wrong Bob, but as I said earlier, in the long run it probably doesn't matter in this case which order we choose which type of player.

I would argue that it is exactly the opposite, where Toumpas fills a much bigger hole in our list than Wines could fill.

He won't be filling much of a hole if he's playing at casey.

Look I'm not writing Jimmy off I'm just saying that he probably isn't exactly what we need at the moment and I'd bet Nathan and Jack would be happy to have a bit of help in the centre. We will probably have the pick of the midfielders in the next draft and there will probably be better than Jimmy available or at least as good; i reckon that Olie Wines will be a beauty.

Y E S

Wines is playing in a successful team: Toumpass is playing in a rudderless team.

Who is to say that we're the tables turned that the tables wouldn't turn??

A ridiculous post so early in their respective careers.

Yes, we don't seem to be able to develop mango four top picks - does that mean we pick the wrong guys or we are just crap at developing talent.

The argument is circular.

He won't be filling much of a hole if he's playing at casey.

Look I'm not writing Jimmy off I'm just saying that he probably isn't exactly what we need at the moment and I'd bet Nathan and Jack would be happy to have a bit of help in the centre. We will probably have the pick of the midfielders in the next draft and there will probably be better than Jimmy available or at least as good; i reckon that Olie Wines will be a beauty.

Dear or Dear........we are expecting 1st year players to be the difference! Its all about development for them.

Great teams buld lists for the yrs comming not for now!

No.

But certainly too early to say Wines will be better than Toumpas.

On a needs basis, it's Wines that we could use right now.

As I said above, would Wines be any good in an absolutely crap team with no support ?????

Look at Sydney on the weekend.

Their top 2 contested possession midfielders were Kennedy and O'Keefe with 18 and 17 respectively. Other than that they had Parker next best with 10. From there they surround them with high quality runners like Hannebery, McVeigh, Malceski, Shaw, Mattner, Goodes etc.

We have Jones as a high quality inside midfielder and Viney, who we assume will be. Other than that we have guys like Trengove, McKenzie, Magner etc who can play as an inside midfielder, but the top teams have show that you only need 2 plus a defensive stoppage midfielder (like Jordan Lewis, Luke Ball, etc) which is the role best suited to both Trengove and McKenzie.

Examples of this are Sydney, Collingwood (Pendlebury/Swan + Ball), Hawthorn (Mitchell/Hodge + Lewis), Richmond (Cotchin/Tuck + Jackson), West Coast (Priddis/Kerr + Masten), St Kilda (Hayes/Dal Santo + Steven), Adelaide (Thompson/Dangerfield) and Geelong (Bartel/Selwood + Corey) etc.

But we really, really lack the outside runners that the good teams have. On the weekend (and in previous weeks) we have been killed on the spread and quick transitions where we haven't had enough guys that can cover the ground quickly enough. Look at Hawthorn, who have been bringing in as many high level runners as they can (Hill, Anderson, Shiels, Bruest, Savage, Smith, Duryea) in addition to their quality outside players like Birchall, Suckling, Guerra, Rioli etc. West Coast ran us off our feet, and there will be many teams that will do this to us this year as we just don't have the runners in our side. That's why Evans came in quickly, Bail as soon as he was fit.

We need damaging outside players that just outrun their opponents, just like Toumpas. He represents a greater need than the inside midfield (which we already have mostly covered for the future).

Don't agree? Have a look at our drafting last year. Other than Viney and Hogan (both exceptional circumstances), we picked Barry, Toumpas, Kent, M Jones, Terlich, Stark and Clisby. There is a common theme and it is very much in running ability, particularly outside the stoppages.

Understand your argument Bob, but good contested ball getters are extremely valuable - runners are easier to stop, eg the Hawks Clinton Young in past years.

Dear or Dear........we are expecting 1st year players to be the difference! Its all about development for them.

Great teams buld lists for the yrs comming not for now!

At the moment it's about trying to be competitive, because if we're not, there may not be much of a future for us to develop anyone.

Jimmy will probably be a very good player, all I'm saying is we may need something different at the moment.

Are you talking about Jack Watts or Toumpas?

Toumpas' appetite for the contest was miles ahead of Watts at the same age, extremely unfair to compare him to the basketball kid

Understand your argument Bob, but good contested ball getters are extremely valuable - runners are easier to stop, eg the Hawks Clinton Young in past years.

One runner, by himself, is easy to stop. Brett Deledio is easy to stop as an outside runner, as has been shown in the past. But stopping him plus Martin, Houli, Grigg, Newman, etc is much more difficult. You get to a point where they just run over the top of you.

I'm not talking about selecting Toumpas as the one saviour of our outside midfield. I'm talking about getting a whole lot of quality outside runners that can do it. We are in the process of doing it, and it's much more of a need than yet another inside midfielder.

Give me a pack of inside ballgetting midfielders any day Bob - they can also run enough to move the ball quickly!

Wines was exactly what we needed. What were they thinking?

agree. Wines was my number 1 choice ...even ahead of Whitfield.

I think we all need to relax a bit with Toumpas. YES, his first 3 games have been less than remarkable.. but NO, this guy is not a hack.

Look at some of the stuff he was doing against men in 2011 and 2012. We have not seen it at AFL level yet, but it WILL come. Look at his disposal by foot, sublime.

Wines is a beauty but we all knew that all along.

Give me a pack of inside ballgetting midfielders any day Bob - they can also run enough to move the ball quickly!

The evidence doesn't seem to support this, though.

Bob, you provide a well formed argument, but the way you're talking, one could be forgiven for thinking we are spoiled for ball winners. We're not. We have Jones, a first year player in Viney, and that's pretty much it. As it stands, our depth is extremely poor in all areas of the midfield, not just outside run.

Take West Coast as one example. Yes they have Priddis and Kerr, but Masten also had 11 clearances, 6 out of the centre, with able support from Shuey and Selwood. We simply can't get our hands on the footy at the moment, a problem that, love him or hate him, has been undoubtedly worsened by the absence of Moloney.

As to who will be the better long-term player is up for debate, but saying there is no great need for a player like Wines absolutely flies in the face of what we've seen in the first three rounds, and indeed the state of the list.

Wingard (pick 4 2011) looked pretty damn average in his first year last year. Now i've seen him twice this year, he has really come on. IIRC he was also drafted straight out of the SANFL.

Wines was always going to impact straight away. Everyone needs to stop blowing their loads early and give Jimmy T a couple of years.

I think it's a pretty good comparison, similar type of player and did he play well tonight.

Further to my post above, I would dispute that assumption that 2 players in Jones and Viney will be sufficient in filling the inside midfield roles. Jones is an excellent player, albeit a bit overrated due to us being starved of quality midfielders, and Viney will be a gun, but to expect them to carry that load on their own is not realistic.

Against Port we lost the clearances by 9 (34-43) but lost the game by 13 goals. That indicates that there is a bigger issue than clearances.

This is supported by the game on the weekend, where West Coast took the ball away from the stoppages easily because they had runners able to receive the footy. We were unable to move it cleanly from clearances because we couldn't transition the ball from congestion into a dangerous outside possession.

This was especially evident in the 3rd quarter, when WC moved the ball forward with absolute ease. When we had some run in the first half we were able to stop West Coast from getting the ball too easily outside the contest, but once our run dropped it became very easy. We lost the clearances by 12 (33-45) but that doesn't explain a 16 goal loss.

It's also not a surprise that we lost the clearances, because our number 1 clearance player is an 18 year old kid in Viney. But in time he will be great at it. Also, just noticing your recent post, N Jones is a quality inside midfielder. The fact that he is surrounded by spuds doesn't make him less of a footballer. As we get better he will be recognised.

As further indication of this, the footy department also chased Mackay very hard last year, who fits the outside runner mould perfectly.

As I said earlier, the evidence suggests that quality teams have a setup that includes a limited number of ball winning insiders and a vast amount of territory covering runners. We are OK in one of these areas, but awful at the other. Toumpas helps us address that, although it isn't as sexy as a bash and crash feel good story.

Jebus D'landers love self flagellation...

I appreciate what you're saying, what I don't agree with is the assertion that 2 quality ball winners and a bunch of also rans is doing OK in that area. Frankly another hard nosed type like Wines would be an absolute god send.

At the end of the day, we needed both, so I understand the decision to go with Viney and Toumpas, rather than Viney and Viney II. The majority accepted the logic to that decision. That said, the first few rounds have been somewhat of a wake up call about the extent of our deficiencies in the middle of the ground, and the stats Wines is producing are incredibly impressive. There's a strong chance we've passed on a very special player, who wanted to come here, of all places.

I think we all need to relax a bit with Toumpas. YES, his first 3 games have been less than remarkable.. but NO, this guy is not a hack.

Look at some of the stuff he was doing against men in 2011 and 2012. We have not seen it at AFL level yet, but it WILL come. Look at his disposal by foot, sublime.

Wines is a beauty but we all knew that all along.

I'm going to watch that YouTube every day so I'll remember what we have to look forward too and remember the kid can play.

Wines will win the rising star,we missed out on a chance to build an amazing engine room, with Wines and Viney.

Love Jimmy, but he could turn out to be another Watts.....great skills but.

We just got to manage the young players better dont burn them out in there 1st season, just ease them in. Toup should play a cupple vfl games now... he'll come good.

You know we could have actually had toumpas viney and wines all at once..

You know we could have actually had toumpas viney and wines all at once..

Instead of Hogan you mean?

Demonland poll prior to the draft: http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32253-poll-wines-or-toumpas/page-5?hl=%2Bwines+%2Btoumpas#entry671352

Wines v Toumpas (as preferred first MFC pick)

Wines - 60 votes

Toumpas - 143 votes

We (the supporters) wanted him.

We've made a few draft blunders over the journey (all clubs have) but honestly guys, to say the MFC "stuffed up (again)" with this pick is ridiculous.