I'm sorry, I don't have the capacity for a witty follow-up, I'm only good for a silly one-liner...

So, in all seriousness, I believe that Jamar is only really at his full potential when in the ruck- resting in the forward-line he is only productive if he marks it in the goalsquare due to his atrocious kicking, and even when a kick behind play he seems to be inevitably 10 metres from the fall of the ball when it is marked in our defensive 50.

Martin was, in 2011 at least, a more reliable target up forward but whether he fits into what is now a completely different forward set-up from then will be decided by more knowledgeable folk than us. Certainly the current 3-1 interchange system benefits ruckmen who can stay on the ground for longer periods.

We now have 6 ruckmen, someone at least has to be traded. We are going to be in an awful dilemna if Grundy is left and Toumpas and Wines are gone at our pick. I would be talking to GWS about trades and at the same time getting the info on who they want so we can trade accordingly. Martin has been mentioned as of interest to GWS.

Why is Spencer still on the list?

Edited October 18, 201212 yr by Clint Bizkit

Why is Spencer still on the list?

Because apparently he shows 'promise'.

If you like little taps backward to the advantage of the opposition midfielders, then Jamar is your man.

If you like a ruckman who isn't a witches hat and who actually contributes around the ground, then Martin is your man.

Mark Jamar 2012 season: 14 games averaging 8.3 disposals and 2.1 marks, plus 1 goal.

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 13.9 disposals and 4.4 marks, plus 7 goals.

Plus Jamar is three and a half years older than Martin and is clearly in a downwards spiral, both in terms of his body and his football nous.

I would trade Jamar to GWS for a low first round pick and run with Martin and Spencer next year, supported by Fitzpatrick and (hopefully) Gawn.

Edited October 19, 201212 yr by poita

From Facebook trades page:

"The Brisbane lions are gearing up to make a play for versatile big man Stefan Martin from the dees."

If true, I wouldn't mind seeing what they'd offer. Don't suppose they have some 23/24 year old outside mids with good training habits?

I'd be annoyed if we kept Fitzpatrick and Spencer but traded Martin, unless we got a very good deal for Martin.

I'd be annoyed if we kept Fitzpatrick and Spencer but traded Martin, unless we got a very good deal for Martin.

They don't have any value on the market.

They don't have any value on the market.

They don't have any value on the list either.

They don't have any value on the list either.

That may be but Martin might be valuable in improving the list through a pick or ready made mid.

If you like little taps backward to the advantage of the opposition midfielders, then Jamar is your man.

If you like a ruckman who isn't a witches hat and who actually contributes around the ground, then Martin is your man.

Mark Jamar 2012 season: 14 games averaging 8.3 disposals and 2.1 marks, plus 1 goal.

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 13.9 disposals and 4.4 marks, plus 7 goals.

Plus Jamar is three and a half years older than Martin and is clearly in a downwards spiral, both in terms of his body and his football nous.

I would trade Jamar to GWS for a low first round pick and run with Martin and Spencer next year, supported by Fitzpatrick and (hopefully) Gawn.

So would I. We also have Clark and soon Pederson.

They don't have any value on the list either.

Fitzpatrick shows promise as a forward, kicked a good number of goals at Casey this year and he's only 20. Spencer on the other hand shows nothing really.

I definitely think Martin is dispensable but then again I would rather have him on the list than either Fitzpatrick or particularly Spencer.

The afl.com.au article states that the Lions have picks 23, 30 & 43 (as well as pick 8) - getting 23 or 30 for Martin would be OK depending on how we were going to use it. Saving it for the draft would be a 50/50 proposition but if we had a player in mind to on-trade it for (particularly a midifielder like Ray) it could be worth it. It's probably too early for Pederson and hopefully we'll use our FA compo pick on him.

It's definitely worth considering a trade for martin but only if their were a greater plan in mind. No point getting rid of players now just for the sake of making changes/racking up picks and also need to bear list management in mind as we will need to make further changes at the end of next year. At the very least he can still be a handy back-up in all areas of the ground even though he's not really very good at any of them.

If you like little taps backward to the advantage of the opposition midfielders, then Jamar is your man.

If you like a ruckman who isn't a witches hat and who actually contributes around the ground, then Martin is your man.

Mark Jamar 2012 season: 14 games averaging 8.3 disposals and 2.1 marks, plus 1 goal.

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 13.9 disposals and 4.4 marks, plus 7 goals.

Plus Jamar is three and a half years older than Martin and is clearly in a downwards spiral, both in terms of his body and his football nous.

I would trade Jamar to GWS for a low first round pick and run with Martin and Spencer next year, supported by Fitzpatrick and (hopefully) Gawn.

Agree completely Jamar to GWS for a late first round pick Sounds good

From Facebook trades page:

"The Brisbane lions are gearing up to make a play for versatile big man Stefan Martin from the dees."

If true, I wouldn't mind seeing what they'd offer. Don't suppose they have some 23/24 year old outside mids with good training habits?

MFC will regret trading Martin

Jamar and Moloney contributed to a great extent to our completely predictable clearance work No wonder we got smashed all year. We need to go differntly this year and im not at all sure Jamar is capable especially with the new rules.

Jamar and Moloney contributed to a great extent to our completely predictable clearance work No wonder we got smashed all year. We need to go differntly this year and im not at all sure Jamar is capable especially with the new rules.

Agreed jackaub. I'm thinking it's time Martin became our #1 ruck.

MFC will regret trading Martin

I doubt that very much.

If you like little taps backward to the advantage of the opposition midfielders, then Jamar is your man.

If you like a ruckman who isn't a witches hat and who actually contributes around the ground, then Martin is your man.

Mark Jamar 2012 season: 14 games averaging 8.3 disposals and 2.1 marks, plus 1 goal.

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 13.9 disposals and 4.4 marks, plus 7 goals.

Plus Jamar is three and a half years older than Martin and is clearly in a downwards spiral, both in terms of his body and his football nous.

I would trade Jamar to GWS for a low first round pick and run with Martin and Spencer next year, supported by Fitzpatrick and (hopefully) Gawn.

Geez, they're pretty damning stats. I still don't believe that Martin is the long term answer, but I now kinda think that Jamar is neither of short term or long term benefit. I think I'd rather Gawn/Martin with Grundy (if we can get him) in 2013, then Grundy and Gawn in 2014.

MFC - talk to GWS about taking Jamar, giving us a 1st rounder and leave Grundy for pick 4.

This, of course, means we won't take Wines/Toumpas/O'Rourke etc with pick 4, leaving our midfield undermanned for another year.

Selective use of stats Poita.

Surely Rucks need to be judged on the HO stats?

Mark Jamark 2012 season: 14 games averaging 32.4 Hit Outs per game

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 14.2 Hit Outs per game

Selective use of stats Poita.

Surely Rucks need to be judged on the HO stats?

Mark Jamark 2012 season: 14 games averaging 32.4 Hit Outs per game

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 14.2 Hit Outs per game

The biggest concern with Jamar is the number of games he's missed over the last 4 or 5 years and the fact he was injured this year came back and was re injured within 10 minutes.

His form spiked in 2009 and he was playing good football in 7 games but was injured and missed the rest of the year. The next year 2010 he played 22 games and was sensational winning AA and really putting his stamp on the number one spot.

However he only played 15 games in 2011 and 14 games this year and never really captured the 2010 form, so I guess we have to question his longevity and what we are going to do if his calf breaks down again next year. It is a concern and we need to have a contingency in place and that is either Spencer, Gawn or Mitch who we need in the forward line. Then there's Fitzpatrick.

Most on here think Spencer is hopeless, Gawn is a day to day proposition having had 2 knee reconstructions and I doubt you'd even consider Fitzpatrick so who do you turn to?

Martin I guess.

Edited October 19, 201212 yr by RobbieF

MFC will regret trading Martin

Thats what i keep saying and very few believe me!!! If he does indeed go we had better get a pretty good damn deal

Selective use of stats Poita.

Surely Rucks need to be judged on the HO stats?

Mark Jamark 2012 season: 14 games averaging 32.4 Hit Outs per game

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 14.2 Hit Outs per game

Yes he did have more hitouts Jamar, but unless my memory is failing me he was the solo ruck. when martin was fit and playing, spencer was also in the team rucking, so martin wouldn't have been in the ruck 100%

Maybe a Martin trade facilitates taking Grundy with Pick 4 and Pedersen?

Selective use of stats Poita.

Surely Rucks need to be judged on the HO stats?

Mark Jamark 2012 season: 14 games averaging 32.4 Hit Outs per game

Stefan Martin 2012 season: 7 games averaging 14.2 Hit Outs per game

You bet me too it PaulRB, beautifully written.

I think some people here realise the primary role of the ruckman. Its not to get cheap possessions around the ground like Stef does, although they are beneficial. Its to assist in clearing the stoppage.

I only got back from 4 months o/seas and have been putting myself through the horrors of our games from Rd 10 onwards.

The one game standing out to assist in this thread was against Freo (which I am sure was flogged to death on this board) but when Jamar went down Stef got completely murdered in the ruck and it had a big effect on the final result where it looked like Freo won nearly all the clearances for last quarter and a half. He did get some of the pill around the ground but his inability to compete in the rucking contest cost us.

For the people repeating the idea that Jamar only taps the ball to his feet, well that is clearly the team plan and not just his doing. I believe he is more than a one trick pony which people seem to suggest here.