On 24/10/2012 at 06:16, old dee said:

Carefull Hulkmania

bb has been around for a considerable time and most active.

You need to get used to his postings.

Not a bad guy actually.

i think Hulk was just having a joke

  On 24/10/2012 at 06:15, monoccular said:

A great highlight clip.....but it begs the question: why couldn't he get a regular game at North through 2012?

If it is "just" a personality clash with Scott with no underlying "issue" then Scott is a very immature and inadequate personality for a coach.

The concern to me is that our recruiters must do forensic heavy duty due diligence and see if there is some other underlying defect on Pedersen's part. It is hard to believe given the wraps some seem to have on his footy skills, strengths and abilities that it is just a matter of "team balance" at Norf that leaves him at VFL for most of the season.

Tim Harrington was previously with North so I would imagine that he still has a few contacts there and I would hope he has asked the right questions about Pederson's lack of opportunities.

  On 24/10/2012 at 06:20, GrandOld said:

i think Hulk was just having a joke

I realise that GO

But a little history never goes astray

  On 24/10/2012 at 06:16, old dee said:

Carefull Hulkmania

bb has been around for a considerable time and most active.

You need to get used to his postings.

Not a bad guy actually.

  On 24/10/2012 at 06:20, GrandOld said:

i think Hulk was just having a joke

What GrandOld said OldDee. Joking around.

Big admirer of BB59's posts actually!

Honestly, I'd kind of prefer us to walk away from this deal right now. I was all for Pedersen when we didn't have Dawes, but now that we've paid so much over market value for the second key forward we were looking for, I just don't see the value in going for someone who is a virtual clone, especially when North are now trying to pull a Collingwood and convince us to overpay them by a similar margin. With Dawes in the side, what role exactly is Pedersen going to play? We have plenty of talls at both ends of the park, we have rucks, we even have Seller who plays the utility/spare ruck role, and Fitzpatrick coming along nicely who can do the same. In all honesty, I see us paying too much again, and this time for a guy who is going to dominate for Casey and rarely see any senior action.

  On 24/10/2012 at 08:28, RalphiusMaximus said:

Honestly, I'd kind of prefer us to walk away from this deal right now. I was all for Pedersen when we didn't have Dawes, but now that we've paid so much over market value for the second key forward we were looking for, I just don't see the value in going for someone who is a virtual clone, especially when North are now trying to pull a Collingwood and convince us to overpay them by a similar margin. With Dawes in the side, what role exactly is Pedersen going to play? We have plenty of talls at both ends of the park, we have rucks, we even have Seller who plays the utility/spare ruck role, and Fitzpatrick coming along nicely who can do the same. In all honesty, I see us paying too much again, and this time for a guy who is going to dominate for Casey and rarely see any senior action.

I agree RM

North are the ones who want to move Pedo out of their club.

The word is that he has lost the confidence of Brad Scott and the entire North playing list.

If they want to be rid of his services, then they will take what they can for Pedo and move on.

Otherwise its no deal.

The pressure is really on North to make up their mind on what to do.

(ps) For what its worth, I think North will cave and send Pederson to us for a very low pick (just before the cut off point on Friday)

Itll be very 11th hour with much hand wringing unless sense wins out , yeah ... I know.

The market hath spoken... but few are listening.

We can at least stop now and still have had an incredibly successful campaign .

This is OUR leverage.. We CAN stop; some others need to continue in order to achieve an outcome.

I'm not convinced North are the ones holding up the deal. It makes me think that we are in some way trying to involve Ray in the Pedersen deal.

Of course, it could just be both clubs playing funny buggers. But to what end?

  On 24/10/2012 at 08:55, AdamFarr said:

I'm not convinced North are the ones holding up the deal. It makes me think that we are in some way trying to involve Ray in the Pedersen deal.

I would say that Martin is the first domino in the whole mess. Of course, he will only get us one pick, so who would we use it on. I'm more inclined to go for Ray than Pedersen, for all the reasons mentioned in my previous post.

I would have thought we COULD do a deal... To suit us.

Others want more.....thats how i see it.

IF we move Martin on end don't get Pedersen, we wont have any shortage of talls. So only IF he comes very cheaply should we continue with this charade - tell Norf to go and stick their deal. If they dont want him they could always just delist him and get nothing for him. Mids are the big need.

  On 24/10/2012 at 09:07, RalphiusMaximus said:

I would say that Martin is the first domino in the whole mess. Of course, he will only get us one pick, so who would we use it on. I'm more inclined to go for Ray than Pedersen, for all the reasons mentioned in my previous post.

Yeah i agree with martin. Once that peice falls i think the rest will be quick to follow

As for pedersen, i think he would be able to fit in well on the half fwd area (LHF/RHF) and give us another big man up there. When Hogan comes in the following season, it may look like being too top heavy but would there really be any defenses in the game that could stop 4 big, strong talls? I can't think of any that could. we would still have brynes and another small in the fwd pockets, so it wouldn't be as though we would have no speed in the fwd line.

  On 24/10/2012 at 06:00, Hulkamania said:

First the hair-do and this nickname Bezelbub? This guy just can't take a trick!

There was a post on the NM supporter site saying that with a nickname like that, he was wondering why St Kilda weren't all over him like a rash.

  On 24/10/2012 at 08:28, RalphiusMaximus said:

Honestly, I'd kind of prefer us to walk away from this deal right now. I was all for Pedersen when we didn't have Dawes, but now that we've paid so much over market value for the second key forward we were looking for, I just don't see the value in going for someone who is a virtual clone, especially when North are now trying to pull a Collingwood and convince us to overpay them by a similar margin. With Dawes in the side, what role exactly is Pedersen going to play? We have plenty of talls at both ends of the park, we have rucks, we even have Seller who plays the utility/spare ruck role, and Fitzpatrick coming along nicely who can do the same. In all honesty, I see us paying too much again, and this time for a guy who is going to dominate for Casey and rarely see any senior action.

With all due respect Ralph I'm very frustrated by this attitude that we paid "over market value" for Dawes. The Bulldogs offered what was then Pick 21 and a swap of later picks, we offered pick 20 and a swap of later picks, we literally offered one pick over our competition! That competition determines the market value, Dawes' value was determined by the competition we had for him, Brisbane offered a similar amount, the Bulldogs offered one pick less, this is the value, two years ago we couldn't get Dawes for pick 12! Market value fluctuates, if you want to assign an absolute value for every player that is your perogative and your opinion. Market value is what others are willing to pay for him, which we must beat to get his services.

Also, I really want Ray, I think Pedersen is important if we trade Martin, otherwise he is neither here nor there. Ray would be a great get to rotate through the midfield off half back, the exact type of player we want, with an attitude that is great and who has played in a well-drilled successful side under one of the best current coaches. If we get him I will be very happy.

Peterson becomes vary valuable with rotations and the ability to swing from defence, ruck and forward..

The likes of Ray are easier to find

  On 24/10/2012 at 11:40, deejammin said:

Also, I really want Ray, I think Pedersen is important if we trade Martin, otherwise he is neither here nor there. Ray would be a great get to rotate through the midfield off half back, the exact type of player we want, with an attitude that is great and who has played in a well-drilled successful side under one of the best current coaches. If we get him I will be very happy.

I won't disagree with you on Ray. He's played in a very successful outfit that almost won a GF. It's that experience as much as any on-field ability that we need. I just wouldn't pay too much for him (not that we have much left to pay).

  On 24/10/2012 at 11:44, Demon Forever said:

Peterson becomes vary valuable with rotations and the ability to swing from defence, ruck and forward..

The likes of Ray are easier to find

Martin, Sellar, Fitzy, Clark (FF and Ruck), Garland and potentially even TMac are all currently on our list and can all play this role, to different levels of success admittedly, but Pedersen is no guarentee to be better than any of them. How many multi- Grand Finalist Half Back Flanks at 26 years of age with good attitude and experience do you think we can get?

@Ralph: I agree, that type of experience is invaluable, and added to the experience of Byrnes and Dawes may show our players what it means to work like a successful outfit on the track. The only way we can pay overs IMO is to trade pick 4 which we obviously would never do, the players that have been listed for trade don't upset me too much (Martin, Gysberts, Petterd, Morton) if they result in us getting Ray.

  On 24/10/2012 at 11:49, deejammin said:

Martin, Sellar, Fitzy, Clark (FF and Ruck), Garland and potentially even TMac are all currently on our list and can all play this role, to different levels of success admitedly, but Pedersen is no guarentee to be better than any of them. How many multi- Grand Finalist Half Back Flanks at 26 years of age with good attitude and experience do you think we can get?

I sort of agree...but do you really rate Ray..

It could be that I just haven't paid enough attention to him but e ever stood out for me.

I just think that we should have potentially targeted another run and carry player. Who? Buggered if I know. Lol

I rate Ray, I think he plays the perfect role for our team, and his performance in the drawn GF was top class. Also he has played well this year, albeit mainly in the VFL. Although his real value will be helping our young players develop, if he takes guys like Strauss under his wing and gets them to realise their potential he will be more than worth it regardless of what he does onfield.

  On 24/10/2012 at 11:56, deejammin said:

I rate Ray, I think he plays the perfect role for our team, and his performance in the drawn GF was top class. Also he has played well this year, albeit mainly in the VFL. Although his real value will be helping our young players develop, if he takes guys like Strauss under his wing and gets them to realise their potential he will be more than worth it regardless of what he does onfield.

Had a similar convo the other day about Ben Cousins...regardless of his problems the time with Richmond helped speed up their development from a midfield perspective.

  On 24/10/2012 at 11:56, deejammin said:

I rate Ray, I think he plays the perfect role for our team, and his performance in the drawn GF was top class. Also he has played well this year, albeit mainly in the VFL. Although his real value will be helping our young players develop, if he takes guys like Strauss under his wing and gets them to realise their potential he will be more than worth it regardless of what he does onfield.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Ray failed at his first club. He knows how to turn around a career that has stagnated, and that is something a few of our guys could really use. If he can help them to get moving in the right direction again it would be a huge boost.

  On 24/10/2012 at 11:40, deejammin said:

With all due respect Ralph I'm very frustrated by this attitude that we paid "over market value" for Dawes.

I agree with this, but from a different angle... Dawes on his own may not be worth what we paid, but coupled with Clark and Byrnes (and possibly Pedersen) he takes on a completely different value. Everyone thought we had paid overs for Clark but that turned out to be wrong in terms of what he provided... now with the addition of Dawes, Clarks value increases as he will be able to have an even more positive impact due to Dawes drawing the numbers away from him; and this increases Dawes value as well.

What I see as flawed in the views of some media types as well as general supporters is the pseudo fixed valuations of some players. It's essentially the same as money (currencies) used to operate. They were invariably fixed to this or that one. Then all other countries' worth was tethered.

Compare to now where they float and can be volatile. Something out of favour diminishes very quickly. The player trade market is no different. It's all relative.

At least with currencies you can buy or sell whatever you have, with player trading you have to work to the nearest pick that YOU have available. This is what throws the market even more askew. This is also why multi club multi player deals sometimes result as clubs try to realign the values with the picks avail.

The other thing of note is picks aren't able to be stored ( generally) they have a once only use by tag. So you just have to make the best fist of your needs v their needs using what you have. Sometimes dovetailing is impossible and you just have to cobble together a deal that's close and all can live with.

But the hacks want to apply their arbitrary rule of value. That's why they're hacks and team professionals aren't.

Seems to me that clubs this year are playing hardball but in the end they either want the player & give in or they lose out to the next best club in line.

It all depends how bad they want it doesnt it.

I do hope we get Pedo & Ray as they are good players but we will end up losing Stef for them.

A pick from a morton deal might also assist..