On 16/08/2012 at 11:59, José Mourinho said:

But that's not to do with leadership or changing the culture - that's reflective of his influence on the result, and the improvement of his teammates as they develop.

He's not the greatest leader, but he is one.

  On 15/08/2012 at 01:37, nutbean said:

I'll point to a part of our culture that has irked me - I believe our player over an extended period have never been challenged to be excellent. We have had numerous players that have taken the big upward curve only to plateau or worse, go backwards.

Neil Craig said at the beginning of the year that there will be players at the MFC who will not be able, or not wont to stay at the club because of the expectations set and that was fine with Craig. Its fine with me too.

I'll take it one further - not only do they plateau after having an upward curve, many of them burst onto the scene showing some talent but are never challenged to excel beyond their natural talents - so plateauing from debut without any real upward curve other than minimal improvement that comes with having mature bodies. Look at guys like Bruce and Green. Burst onto the scene in 2000 making a great impression but never really improved their games other than finding some consistency for periods during their careers. This extends even further back to guys like Yze and Johnstone, players are able to cruise on raw talent without needing to put in the hard work to challenge themselves to work on deficiencies and excel. Less talented players at other clubs have far better and more consistent careers than MFC players who ooze natural talent due to the hard work they are willing/forced to put in to get them to the elite level.

  On 16/08/2012 at 12:19, rpfc said:

He's not the greatest leader, but he is one.

Exactly my take.

  On 15/08/2012 at 03:58, billy2803 said:

At the moment, and it is only early days, Grimes and Trengove are a long way from creating a culture that the likes of Geelong and Sydney have. It's hard for them to sit in front of the group and demand elite level disposal efficiency when one is continually turning it over, and the other can't kick a goal from 30m out.

I'm sorry, but if these are the blokes that I am looking up to when we are trying to develop a culture, I'm finding it hard to buy-in based on what I see during a game. I just hope it's the stuff that I don't see (ie at training and general offield antics) that they are working on in Year 1 of the new Culture Club ©.

I think you're off the money here - culture and leadership aren't defined by disposal efficiency. It is defined by effort, hard work, supporting teammates, supporting the coach by following instructions and enforcing those instructions on teammates etc

  On 16/08/2012 at 11:59, José Mourinho said:

But that's not to do with leadership or changing the culture - that's reflective of his influence on the result, and the improvement of his teammates as they develop.

Agreed. RPFC you have your view on leadership but I respectfully suggest they are off the mark. Carltank is not a united club, nor are they are premiership contender. As for Judd he is about one thing - Judd.

  On 16/08/2012 at 13:06, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think you're off the money here - culture and leadership aren't defined by disposal efficiency. It is defined by effort, hard work, supporting teammates, supporting the coach by following instructions and enforcing those instructions on teammates etc

Dr, while I did make mention of one specific topic, of course it isn't the only thing. However, you ask the defenders and the midfield, after they work their arse off to get the ball forward, and our captain takes a mark 30 metres out and doesn't make the distance, ask them what sort of an example that sets. JT isn't in great form, and onfield his confidence looks down, but when you're in that position (captain), you need to pull yourself together pretty bloody quickly.

I do like that "supporting teammates" reference you made. It is one that I have been harping on about all year about the lack of enjoyment/celebration/encouragement after we kick a goal. They are little things that needs to start at the top, and doesn't take long to spread through the playing group. If you want examples of it, watch how Richmond react after they kick a goal.

  On 16/08/2012 at 21:29, jnrmac said:

Agreed. RPFC you have your view on leadership but I respectfully suggest they are off the mark. Carltank is not a united club, nor are they are premiership contender. As for Judd he is about one thing - Judd.

I don't think we see very differently but my point is that considering where Carlton were when Pagan left and they tanked, and then Judd came in and he hasn't turned it into anything near a Coll or Haw or Geel but he has turned it into the middling club it is and that is something.

I don't think Carlton will win a flag with Judd which is just a great thing to say or post - it's quite warming really.

But that isn't to say he hasn't had an affect on the place.

  On 17/08/2012 at 01:26, rpfc said:

I don't think we see very differently but my point is that considering where Carlton were when Pagan left and they tanked, and then Judd came in and he hasn't turned it into anything near a Coll or Haw or Geel but he has turned it into the middling club it is and that is something.

I don't think Carlton will win a flag with Judd which is just a great thing to say or post - it's quite warming really.

But that isn't to say he hasn't had an affect on the place.

History shows RP, that Carlton are a very proud and successful club, the most successful in the league, and their supporters generally know that while they do have down times, these aren't normally for extended periods, and as such, they have expectations of the Club and its players. You ask any of their supporters, most wouldn't care that they had that bad patch/rebuild in the early to mid '00s, becasue they expect that the culture of the Club that has been around for decades would ensure they would rise up the ladder shortly there after. They went out to get the best in the league, and succeeded, and again, the expectation was for that player to play a major role in re-establishing that culture that, while it had been lacking in the couple of seasons prior, knew that existed within the walls of the Carlton Football Club.

Problem for them (which I love!!!), is that Judd is a fantastic onfield leader, but that's where it stops. He forces players to rise in games, and quite simply, if they don't go on the journey with him, they get left behind. But where the galring issue for me is that they know that if they don't rise, that Judd will anyway, and that is often enough to win them games. Geelong and Sydney don't have that, they have a group of players, or senior leaders, that demand that when the chips are down, the expectation is that all players get to a different level. If they do that and still lose, they will be bitterly disappointed, but would know when they walk off that they have nothing left in the tank, and admit defeat.

Carlton are a lot like Melbourne, they have one or two players that stand up when it counts. Is that a culture issue? I'm buggered if I know! The Club knows that we need a core group of players that set the standard, but we don't have it yet. We have a group of players that could be it, and are now working on developing them in that role. The best part is that at Carlton, it's not as obvious that they are doing that, especially while Judd is the leader. If I barracked for them (yuck, just tasted sick in my mouth), I'd be wanting Murphy, Gibbs, Walker, Kreuzer and Betts to be stepping up as a group, but from what I hear from other Carlton supporters, it is questionable if they can (all of them that is, Murphy obviously can and does step up).

But RPFC, you're talking about improved performance.

That can be a result of leadership and an imfpoved culture... and it can be a result of other factors.

I don't think Carlton's culture has improved.

Dont get me wrong - Judd is a good leader, in that he sets a fantastic example for others to emulate.

But I really don't think he has the personal skills or attitude to demand better from his teammates and change the culture.

A grea leader would have his teammates demanding success of themselves and each other.

All single-mindedly striving for success. The hive mentality.

It's not easy, but this is the benchmark that we'd hope to achieve.

I think we need to if we are to win a flag in the next decade.

At the moment we have too many that try to say the right things, but are, whether consciously or not, concerned more with self-preservation than anything else.

  On 17/08/2012 at 02:01, billy2803 said:

History shows RP, that Carlton are a very proud and successful club, the most successful in the league, and their supporters generally know that while they do have down times, these aren't normally for extended periods, and as such, they have expectations of the Club and its players. You ask any of their supporters, most wouldn't care that they had that bad patch/rebuild in the early to mid '00s, becasue they expect that the culture of the Club that has been around for decades would ensure they would rise up the ladder shortly there after.

Supporters may expect success and believe that their club's culture is one of success, but any club's present day culture is determined by their current leadership group, not what happened 30 years before. Supporters expecting, wanting, hoping, demanding is all great, but they're hollow words if the present day leaders of the club can't provide sustained success.

I'm too far away to know how strong their leadership group is, but I do know that great leadership and great talent will deliver success. Perhaps they don't have enough of both.

No club has had a better era than Melbourne's. Eleven years in a row our club made top 4 with a 75% winning rate; and they won 6 flags from 8 grand finals. How do you think our culture was at that time ? Ultimately a lack of talent and strong leaders post that period ensured a decline. No club is immune from mediocrity if it doesn't have a strong leadership group, or have enough talent.

But equally no club is consigned to mediocrity if they recruit/develop enough of the right individuals. In an 18 team competition that's the hard part.

  On 17/08/2012 at 02:31, Ben-Hur said:

Supporters may expect success and believe that their club's culture is one of success, but any club's present day culture is determined by their current leadership group, not what happened 30 years before. Supporters expecting, wanting, hoping, demanding is all great, but they're hollow words if the present day leaders of the club can't provide sustained success.

I'm too far away to know how strong their leadership group is, but I do know that great leadership and great talent will deliver success. Perhaps they don't have enough of both.

No club has had a better era than Melbourne's. Eleven years in a row our club made top 4 with a 75% winning rate; and they won 6 flags from 8 grand finals. How do you think our culture was at that time ? Ultimately a lack of talent and strong leaders post that period ensured a decline. No club is immune from mediocrity if it doesn't have a strong leadership group, or have enough talent.

But equally no club is consigned to mediocrity if they recruit/develop enough of the right individuals. In an 18 team competition that's the hard part.

It's the current leadership group that reinforces the culture or creates a new one, but a majority of the time, it's the former. The Kangaroos have the shin-boner spirit, it's part of their cutlure and the club's history. It's a lot easier(?) to reinforce that than to try and create something new.

The MFC story is an interesting one. I don't know what the culture was like in that era you mentioned, but I'd take a guess to say that it is vastly different to what it is now. But is the culture of the 50's what we want today to be?

  On 17/08/2012 at 02:44, billy2803 said:

It's the current leadership group that reinforces the culture or creates a new one, but a majority of the time, it's the former. The Kangaroos have the shin-boner spirit, it's part of their cutlure and the club's history. It's a lot easier(?) to reinforce that than to try and create something new.

The MFC story is an interesting one. I don't know what the culture was like in that era you mentioned, but I'd take a guess to say that it is vastly different to what it is now. But is the culture of the 50's what we want today to be?

The "Shinboner Spirit" is a croc of you know what. It's just a nice tag line. And whether a leadership group enforces a perceived past culture, or is setting new parameters doesn't really matter. Although I'd argue that a club's culture will be determined by the values of its present day leadership group, not the Chinese whispers of yesteryear. The day to day behaviours and decisions driven by present day players will be different from the past. Society is different from the past. Culture isn't static, it evolves as behavioural expectations change.

Any culture needs a strong buy in from the playing group and even stronger implementation. Strong leadership with great talent gives the best chance of success.

  On 17/08/2012 at 03:11, Ben-Hur said:

The "Shinboner Spirit" is a croc of you know what. It's just a nice tag line. And whether a leadership group enforces a perceived past culture, or is setting new parameters doesn't really matter. Although I'd argue that a club's culture will be determined by the values of its present day leadership group, not the Chinese whispers of yesteryear. The day to day behaviours and decisions driven by present day players will be different from the past. Society is different from the past. Culture isn't static, it evolves as behavioural expectations change.

Any culture needs a strong buy in from the playing group and even stronger implementation. Strong leadership with great talent gives the best chance of success.

Previous cultures can, and generally do provide the foundations for new leaders to reinforce, but at the same time slightly mould to suit the current climate.

Without getting back into an argument where we are all talking past each other I just meant that Judd is a lone hand in that club and he made it much better than it was. It isn't great but how could it be, when you rely on one flawed leader.

Suffice it to say, I don't think Carlton will win a flag with Judd and that is just a good feeling to have.

  On 15/08/2012 at 22:14, billy2803 said:

I was semi-interested until about here. Is volleyball classed as a sport?

Oh now thats harsh Billy!

You'd be the sorta person that would be great to line up on the other side of the net when spiking the ball.

I'd apologise afterwards of course!

  On 17/08/2012 at 03:11, Ben-Hur said:

The "Shinboner Spirit" is a croc of you know what. It's just a nice tag line.

Disagree. If it is a common thread that binds them and motivates them then it works,

They have punched above their weight for a number of years when everyone has written them off so something must work..

  On 17/08/2012 at 07:45, jnrmac said:

Disagree. If it is a common thread that binds them and motivates them then it works,

They have punched above their weight for a number of years when everyone has written them off so something must work..

Come on.

They trot it out every time the have a come from behind win, but where are all these tossers and where is the spirit when they lose by a hundred every couple of months.

  On 17/08/2012 at 07:45, jnrmac said:

Disagree. If it is a common thread that binds them and motivates them then it works,

They have punched above their weight for a number of years when everyone has written them off so something must work..

Well if they played like us they surely would have sunk a long time ago. They have nothing to fall back on. They represent an irrelevant suburban backwater which has lost its identity. Performance is key to their survival. There seems to be a certain smugness with us whether because we are the football symbol of this great city, the oldest club, the MCC connection or whatever that we can be serial crap and that there will always be someone that will bail us out of our next predicament. Like spoilt brat kids of the upper class we are.

  On 17/08/2012 at 08:10, america de cali said:

Well if they played like us they surely would have sunk a long time ago. They have nothing to fall back on. They represent an irrelevant suburban backwater which has lost its identity. Performance is key to their survival. There seems to be a certain smugness with us whether because we are the football symbol of this great city, the oldest club, the MCC connection or whatever that we can be serial crap and that there will always be someone that will bail us out of our next predicament. Like spoilt brat kids of the upper class we are.

Reluctantly have to agree with this.

  On 17/08/2012 at 03:55, Oucher said:

Oh now thats harsh Billy!

You'd be the sorta person that would be great to line up on the other side of the net when spiking the ball.

I'd apologise afterwards of course!

It's only a game Focker...

  On 17/08/2012 at 07:45, jnrmac said:

Disagree.

Sucked in bad (ly).

  On 14/08/2012 at 23:37, olisik said:

Seem to be 3 standard threads that keep reoccurring at the moment.

1. Sylvia Yes or No threads

2. Viney and what pick his worth and

3. Neeld and what he has done right/wrong.

Yes indeed.

Nit pickers anonymous.

Read Jollys article the other day and whilst I was interested to hear details into the swans culture (couldnt care less about Maxwell and the pies) I couldn't help but feel like it was another veiled swipe at us from a jaded ex player who carries baggage from his days with us. This isn't the first time Jolly has written an article using MFC as the example of what not to do (His article on coaches and how Daniher traumatized him).

Great to see you rose from the ashes Jolly and hey you can string a few words together just leave us out of your next article cause for mine your starting to sound like Gerard Healy.

  On 17/08/2012 at 23:42, TheVoice said:

Great to see you rose from the ashes Jolly and hey you can string a few words together just leave us out of your next article cause for mine your starting to sound like Gerard Healy.

Agreed. He's so bitter and I don't understand why. It's like he wasn't popular at high school and now he has to rub it in our face. He could have very easily ended up at the Bulldogs and North Melbourne and been safely shunted on to the scrap heap of ex players that never achieved a flag. He's a decent player that got lucky in 2 drafts and now he thinks he's an expert on leadership as a result.

I'd take David Neitz as a captain and leader over both Barry Hall and Nick Maxwell but I guess Darren wants to ignore that.

  On 18/08/2012 at 00:17, The heart beats true said:

I'd take David Neitz as a captain and leader over both Barry Hall and Nick Maxwell but I guess Darren wants to ignore that.

Why ?