Mark Neeld

[Johnny Karate 559]

I don't have a problem with people criticising Neeld & speculating that he isn't the MFC's next premiership coach.

If you watch the team play it is a frustrating process. The players are slow & unthinking, they get sucked in too easily to the contest, in the odd occasion that they win the ball there is no spread, only handballs to stationary targets, the skill level is atrocious, often the get out plan is to go long up the line (on the full). We struggle to win contested ball even against the effing expansion sides & can not seem to score for large chunks of matches just like under DB. Brent Moloney was a B&F last year & won 19 Brownlow votes but his form has gone so far backwards he is pretty much a fringe player who seems unhappy at the club. These are all issues for which I believe Mark Neeld needs to bare some responsibility. Therefore I can't criticise any poster that pots Neeld for these problems.

I'm willing to back him in to turn these things around. To bring some balance to the argument it is hard to think of a first year coach that has had a tougher initiation. He inherited a fractured club after the departure of DB & the aftermath of the soul destroying 186. Tom Scully's departure was still a foul stench in the air when Neeld took the chair. He had the tough task of trying to overhaul the FD & onfield leadership of the club after Brad Green's disastrous 1 year stint as captain. Liam Jurrah's problems, Jim Stynes lost his battle with cancer, the club lost a major sponsor through sheer dickwittery, sub par fitness, massive injury lists & adjustment to a radically different gameplan were always going to be tough factors for Neeld to negotiate. Its been an extremely tough initiation. On that basis I'm prepared to cut him some slack & measure my expectations accordingly.

Expectations come into it as well. Neeld has probably inherited a more impatient fanbase than most other coaches, the prevailing logic is seemingly that the MFC has served its penance in the cellar under Bailey. It has become apparent in 2012 that the recruiting has not been great. Morton is still a fringe player, Maric was delisted, Watts isn't close to being a KPF in the mould of Riewoldt, Blease is fringe, ditto Strauss, Scully bolted, Gysberts has played 1 game, Tapscott has struggled & Cook is a million miles away. These were all supposed to be key planks in a rebuilt Demons team. Of the 07-11 drafts you'd say that only Trengove, Grimes & Clark are definite keepers, it's an effing disaster! Combine this with injuries to Jurrah, Clark & Jamar as well as the declining form of the likes of Green, Sylvia & Moloney is it any wonder we're [censored]?

Nuffies will point to last year that we won 8.5 games but in reality we were going backwards. We beat Adelaide & Freo at their lowest ebb, were underwhelming against GC x2, scraped home against a couple of the worst Brisbane & Port sides ever assembled, our 2 good wins were against Richmond (who went past us later) & Essendon in the middle of a form slump. The only decent side we got within a bull's roar of was the round 1 draw with Sydney (who we beat by 74 points in our previous meeting. The rest of the year was marred by thumpings, tactical ineptitude & basically failing every test possible.

They also point to Neeld's quotes about being the "hardest team to play against" & wonder why it hasn't been the case in his first year. Like it was some iron clad promise to do it overnight.

While it's doubtful anybody could've done a worse job this year than Neeld it's equally doubtful whether anyone could've done better in the same set of circumstances. He has a power of work to do, the drafting and trading period will tell us a lot about his intent. He has a three year contract to get us up to competitive standard. To sack him before that would be a sign of an inept, directionless club. No credible coach will want to touch us with a barge pole & you'd be worried about the mental state of anybody keen to work for such a rabble.

I don't profess to know if he is a coaching mastermind but I'm happy to back him in & see how it unfolds. He has my conditional support, I think everybody else owes him that too at this early stage.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Jimmi C

[Moonshadow 17,673]

I agree, i definitely think we can turn things around pretty quickly if we make good decisions in the draft and with the FA's. i'd like to think that we're not going to rely too much of FA's though because i would like to think that neeld and the other new coaches etc can get the most out of players that we already have in our list.

Sylvia for example, i know he has been a very inconsistent player over his whole career and has always annoyed the hell out of many supporters, but since he returned from his back injury this season he seems to have been relatively consistent (touchwood) and i'm hoping that it is due to the input from neeld and the other new coaches and its not just a flash in the pan. We do also have a number of younger players such as Cook, Fitzpatrick and there is also Gawn who is a BIG unknown (literally!) and he could develop into anything and the same goes for the others. Jones also seems to have thrived this season. The approach that neeld has will obviously not suit all players and i'd expect those guys to be moved on at seasons end to make room for newbies.

What i'm trying to say is FA's are definitely a help and we will need them along with the draft picks, but we have to keep in mind that there are some players in the background that haven't as of yet developed big bodies which hopefully they will and lets hope that enables them to take the next big step from VFL to AFL.

As fas as finals go, if we do recruit well i think next year we will push ourselves back up to where we were last year (8-10 wins) but we will be stronger internally than last season. the year after i'd like to think that finals will be definitely in our grasp!

Ahhhh, the optimism of youth!

I like it YDE. Don't let the bastards grind your energy down!

[Moonshadow 17,673]

I don't have a problem with people criticising Neeld & speculating that he isn't the MFC's next premiership coach.

If you watch the team play it is a frustrating process. The players are slow & unthinking, they get sucked in too easily to the contest, in the odd occasion that they win the ball there is no spread, only handballs to stationary targets, the skill level is atrocious, often the get out plan is to go long up the line (on the full). We struggle to win contested ball even against the effing expansion sides & can not seem to score for large chunks of matches just like under DB. Brent Moloney was a B&F last year & won 19 Brownlow votes but his form has gone so far backwards he is pretty much a fringe player who seems unhappy at the club. These are all issues for which I believe Mark Neeld needs to bare some responsibility. Therefore I can't criticise any poster that pots Neeld for these problems.

I'm willing to back him in to turn these things around. To bring some balance to the argument it is hard to think of a first year coach that has had a tougher initiation. He inherited a fractured club after the departure of DB & the aftermath of the soul destroying 186. Tom Scully's departure was still a foul stench in the air when Neeld took the chair. He had the tough task of trying to overhaul the FD & onfield leadership of the club after Brad Green's disastrous 1 year stint as captain. Liam Jurrah's problems, Jim Stynes lost his battle with cancer, the club lost a major sponsor through sheer dickwittery, sub par fitness, massive injury lists & adjustment to a radically different gameplan were always going to be tough factors for Neeld to negotiate. Its been an extremely tough initiation. On that basis I'm prepared to cut him some slack & measure my expectations accordingly.

Expectations come into it as well. Neeld has probably inherited a more impatient fanbase than most other coaches, the prevailing logic is seemingly that the MFC has served its penance in the cellar under Bailey. It has become apparent in 2012 that the recruiting has not been great. Morton is still a fringe player, Maric was delisted, Watts isn't close to being a KPF in the mould of Riewoldt, Blease is fringe, ditto Strauss, Scully bolted, Gysberts has played 1 game, Tapscott has struggled & Cook is a million miles away. Combine this with injuries to Jurrah, Clark & Jamar as well as the declining form of the likes of Green, Sylvia & Moloney is it any wonder we're [censored]?

Nuffies will point to last year that we won 8.5 games but in reality we were going backwards. We beat Adelaide & Freo at their lowest ebb, were underwhelming against GC x2, scraped home against a couple of the worst Brisbane & Port sides ever assembled, our 2 good wins were against Richmond (who went past us later) & Essendon in the middle of a form slump. The only decent side we got within a bull's roar of a decent side was the round 1 draw with Sydney (who we beat by 74 points in our previous meeting. The rest of the year was marred by thumpings, tactical ineptitude & basically failing every test possible.

They also point to his quotes about being the "hardest team to play against" & wonder why it hasn't been the case in his first year.

While it's doubtful anybody could've done a worse job this year than Neeld it's equally doubtful whether anyone could've done better in the same set of circumstances. He has a power of work to do, the drafting and trading period will tell us a lot about his intent. He has a three year contract to get us up to competitive standard. To sack him before that would be a sign of an inept, directionless club. No credible coach will want to touch us with a barge pole & you'd be worried about the mental state of anybody keen to work for such a rabble.

I don't profess to know if he is a coaching mastermind but I'm happy to back him in & see how it unfolds. He has my conditional support, I think everybody else owes him that too at this early stage.

Good post JC. Balanced and insightful.

[H_T 3,043]

I don't have a problem with people criticising Neeld & speculating that he isn't the MFC's next premiership coach.

If you watch the team play it is a frustrating process. The players are slow & unthinking, they get sucked in too easily to the contest, in the odd occasion that they win the ball there is no spread, only handballs to stationary targets, the skill level is atrocious, often the get out plan is to go long up the line (on the full). We struggle to win contested ball even against the effing expansion sides & can not seem to score for large chunks of matches just like under DB. Brent Moloney was a B&F last year & won 19 Brownlow votes but his form has gone so far backwards he is pretty much a fringe player who seems unhappy at the club. These are all issues for which I believe Mark Neeld needs to bare some responsibility. Therefore I can't criticise any poster that pots Neeld for these problems.

I'm willing to back him in to turn these things around. To bring some balance to the argument it is hard to think of a first year coach that has had a tougher initiation. He inherited a fractured club after the departure of DB & the aftermath of the soul destroying 186. Tom Scully's departure was still a foul stench in the air when Neeld took the chair. He had the tough task of trying to overhaul the FD & onfield leadership of the club after Brad Green's disastrous 1 year stint as captain. Liam Jurrah's problems, Jim Stynes lost his battle with cancer, the club lost a major sponsor through sheer dickwittery, sub par fitness, massive injury lists & adjustment to a radically different gameplan were always going to be tough factors for Neeld to negotiate. Its been an extremely tough initiation. On that basis I'm prepared to cut him some slack & measure my expectations accordingly.

Expectations come into it as well. Neeld has probably inherited a more impatient fanbase than most other coaches, the prevailing logic is seemingly that the MFC has served its penance in the cellar under Bailey. It has become apparent in 2012 that the recruiting has not been great. Morton is still a fringe player, Maric was delisted, Watts isn't close to being a KPF in the mould of Riewoldt, Blease is fringe, ditto Strauss, Scully bolted, Gysberts has played 1 game, Tapscott has struggled & Cook is a million miles away. These were all supposed to be key planks in a rebuilt Demons team. Of the 07-11 drafts you'd say that only Trengove, Grimes & Clark are definite keepers, it's an effing disaster! Combine this with injuries to Jurrah, Clark & Jamar as well as the declining form of the likes of Green, Sylvia & Moloney is it any wonder we're [censored]?

Nuffies will point to last year that we won 8.5 games but in reality we were going backwards. We beat Adelaide & Freo at their lowest ebb, were underwhelming against GC x2, scraped home against a couple of the worst Brisbane & Port sides ever assembled, our 2 good wins were against Richmond (who went past us later) & Essendon in the middle of a form slump. The only decent side we got within a bull's roar of was the round 1 draw with Sydney (who we beat by 74 points in our previous meeting. The rest of the year was marred by thumpings, tactical ineptitude & basically failing every test possible.

They also point to Neeld's quotes about being the "hardest team to play against" & wonder why it hasn't been the case in his first year. Like it was some iron clad promise to do it overnight.

While it's doubtful anybody could've done a worse job this year than Neeld it's equally doubtful whether anyone could've done better in the same set of circumstances. He has a power of work to do, the drafting and trading period will tell us a lot about his intent. He has a three year contract to get us up to competitive standard. To sack him before that would be a sign of an inept, directionless club. No credible coach will want to touch us with a barge pole & you'd be worried about the mental state of anybody keen to work for such a rabble.

I don't profess to know if he is a coaching mastermind but I'm happy to back him in & see how it unfolds. He has my conditional support, I think everybody else owes him that too at this early stage.

Sensible post. Hopefully the nuffies peddling to their own tune take this dose of reality.

[thaipantsman 180]

I don't have a problem with people criticising Neeld & speculating that he isn't the MFC's next premiership coach.

If you watch the team play it is a frustrating process. The players are slow & unthinking, they get sucked in too easily to the contest, in the odd occasion that they win the ball there is no spread, only handballs to stationary targets, the skill level is atrocious, often the get out plan is to go long up the line (on the full). We struggle to win contested ball even against the effing expansion sides & can not seem to score for large chunks of matches just like under DB. Brent Moloney was a B&F last year & won 19 Brownlow votes but his form has gone so far backwards he is pretty much a fringe player who seems unhappy at the club. These are all issues for which I believe Mark Neeld needs to bare some responsibility. Therefore I can't criticise any poster that pots Neeld for these problems.

I'm willing to back him in to turn these things around. To bring some balance to the argument it is hard to think of a first year coach that has had a tougher initiation. He inherited a fractured club after the departure of DB & the aftermath of the soul destroying 186. Tom Scully's departure was still a foul stench in the air when Neeld took the chair. He had the tough task of trying to overhaul the FD & onfield leadership of the club after Brad Green's disastrous 1 year stint as captain. Liam Jurrah's problems, Jim Stynes lost his battle with cancer, the club lost a major sponsor through sheer dickwittery, sub par fitness, massive injury lists & adjustment to a radically different gameplan were always going to be tough factors for Neeld to negotiate. Its been an extremely tough initiation. On that basis I'm prepared to cut him some slack & measure my expectations accordingly.

Expectations come into it as well. Neeld has probably inherited a more impatient fanbase than most other coaches, the prevailing logic is seemingly that the MFC has served its penance in the cellar under Bailey. It has become apparent in 2012 that the recruiting has not been great. Morton is still a fringe player, Maric was delisted, Watts isn't close to being a KPF in the mould of Riewoldt, Blease is fringe, ditto Strauss, Scully bolted, Gysberts has played 1 game, Tapscott has struggled & Cook is a million miles away. These were all supposed to be key planks in a rebuilt Demons team. Of the 07-11 drafts you'd say that only Trengove, Grimes & Clark are definite keepers, it's an effing disaster! Combine this with injuries to Jurrah, Clark & Jamar as well as the declining form of the likes of Green, Sylvia & Moloney is it any wonder we're [censored]?

Nuffies will point to last year that we won 8.5 games but in reality we were going backwards. We beat Adelaide & Freo at their lowest ebb, were underwhelming against GC x2, scraped home against a couple of the worst Brisbane & Port sides ever assembled, our 2 good wins were against Richmond (who went past us later) & Essendon in the middle of a form slump. The only decent side we got within a bull's roar of was the round 1 draw with Sydney (who we beat by 74 points in our previous meeting. The rest of the year was marred by thumpings, tactical ineptitude & basically failing every test possible.

They also point to Neeld's quotes about being the "hardest team to play against" & wonder why it hasn't been the case in his first year. Like it was some iron clad promise to do it overnight.

While it's doubtful anybody could've done a worse job this year than Neeld it's equally doubtful whether anyone could've done better in the same set of circumstances. He has a power of work to do, the drafting and trading period will tell us a lot about his intent. He has a three year contract to get us up to competitive standard. To sack him before that would be a sign of an inept, directionless club. No credible coach will want to touch us with a barge pole & you'd be worried about the mental state of anybody keen to work for such a rabble.

I don't profess to know if he is a coaching mastermind but I'm happy to back him in & see how it unfolds. He has my conditional support, I think everybody else owes him that too at this early stage.

Jimmy STynes

Not a motivating factor?

Neeld won't have this next year. Also willing to give him the benefit of doubt and wait until the end of 2013.

This could go either way?

Overall good post

[timD 994]

Excellent post. Perhaps the only question I have is about the link between player ineptitude and Neeld. The same issues were evident last year and the recruiting disgrace has been now highlighted by many...but why sheet home responsibility to neeld for things like 'being sucked into contests' and failing to win contested ball given the recruiting problems and the failure of the team to lern to do basics until bailey?

Regardless of my question I think yours was a really good post.

[Johnny Karate 559]

Jimmy STynes

Not a motivating factor?

The expectation was that it would be. I was disgusted with the lack of passion & spirit in Round 1. Jim was a larger than life character & I expected the players to honour him. But what would I know? Maybe the fear of letting him down got to them? Maybe they believed their own publicity & thought there was no way the Lions could possibly be as hungry as them for victory. Expectation does funny things to young teams for better or worse.

Neeld won't have this next year. Also willing to give him the benefit of doubt and wait until the end of 2013.

This could go either way?

Overall good post

Hence, tough initiation. I agree we'll all know more about Mark Neeld toward the end of 2013. I'm hoping he can turn it around, others on both sides have gone the earlier crow. He deserves to see out his 3 year contract. Is he the messiah? A naughty boy? Or something in between?

Time will tell.

[satyricon 267]

I've got nothing against Neeld, give him a fair go. However, this is just another speculative, guessing, imagining, hoping, load of genaralised toss that journo's thrive on. Ignore it along with most of the other rubbish we are fed. It adds nothing to the MFC.

Gee....I though you were about to say it reminds you of some of the posts on Demonland.

Some of the toss the modern journalists use is from sites like Demonland.

They log in, read a couple of topics and hey presto an aricle with a few quotes to throw in

A lot of the negativity we get to read about MFC starts on this site, as it does with other Clubs as well of course (have a read of some of the stuff about Brett Stanton from a year ago on Bombers boards)

You reap what you sow

I am all for different opinions, and anybody can say it, but you need to back it up, and if there is to be criticism it needs to be constructive rather than destructive

The Coaching situation has been exacerbated by 2, Kevin Sheedy who will sulk till the day he dies that Dean Bailey got the job instead of him and will kick every chance he has got and Paul Roos, not even sure who at MFC upset him, but somebody has, to put it mildly HE HATES MFC.

Neeld will be fine, and when not if MFC is successful we will be able to drag out topics and posts where some of the Footy pundits who post on here wanted him sacked immediately......

(Try looking for some of the posts a couple of years ago about Chip Frawley, what is being dished out to Cale Morton now is tame)

[satyricon 267]

Oh and I forgot to add Mark Neeld has my unconditional support, why because I am a Melbourne supporter

[Johnny Karate 559]

Excellent post. Perhaps the only question I have is about the link between player ineptitude and Neeld. The same issues were evident last year and the recruiting disgrace has been now highlighted by many...but why sheet home responsibility to neeld for things like 'being sucked into contests' and failing to win contested ball given the recruiting problems and the failure of the team to lern to do basics until bailey?

Regardless of my question I think yours was a really good post.

My observation of it is that there seems to have been a massive over correction in this regard under Neeld. Under Bailey, the one thing the team could do well was spread really quickly to dangerous positions (with almost no defensive side). I can only speculate that Neeld has ruled with an iron fist & demanded total accountability at stoppages with the result being a reactive & static mindset. A guy like Trengove used to hunt the footy, now he waits for his opponent to get it & then tackles him.

I think what we are seeing is a team so afraid of deviating from a determined coach's gameplan that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Many teams go through these teething problems when a new coach is trying to exert his authority.

I won't debate the playing list, it's clear that Neeld has inherited a mess but ultimately the coach bares the responsibility for what his players bring to the game. I believe that Jamar, Moloney, Jones, Trengove, Magner & McKenzie have enough body & mongrel to do better at the stoppages. The best coaches squeeze every last drop of talent out of what is at their disposal Neeld will live & die by his ability to do this. It won't happen overnight but if we're still having these discussions in 12-24 months time, Neeld is in trouble.

[Moonshadow 17,673]

The Coaching situation has been exacerbated by 2, Kevin Sheedy who will sulk till the day he dies that Dean Bailey got the job instead of him and will kick every chance he has got and Paul Roos, not even sure who at MFC upset him, but somebody has, to put it mildly HE HATES MFC.

Inflicted the worst loss of his coaching career. Perhaps hastened his downfall???

[Hannibal 5,814]

I'm willing to back him in to turn these things around. To bring some balance to the argument it is hard to think of a first year coach that has had a tougher initiation. He inherited a fractured club after the departure of DB & the aftermath of the soul destroying 186. Tom Scully's departure was still a foul stench in the air when Neeld took the chair. He had the tough task of trying to overhaul the FD & onfield leadership of the club after Brad Green's disastrous 1 year stint as captain. Liam Jurrah's problems, Jim Stynes lost his battle with cancer, the club lost a major sponsor through sheer dickwittery, sub par fitness, massive injury lists & adjustment to a radically different gameplan were always going to be tough factors for Neeld to negotiate. Its been an extremely tough initiation. On that basis I'm prepared to cut him some slack & measure my expectations accordingly.

Excellent post and anybody that can get "dickwittery" into their post deserves two likes, but alas it's not an option.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Malthouse referred to the ability of a coach to gain the most from a list - not replace it completely - to achieve success. Personally, I wish we had a coach with that approach to the job.

Malthouse's first year as coach of Collingwood was in 2000. They finished second last.

At the end of his first year he traded, pensioned off, or delisted the following players:

Gavin Brown

Gavin Crosisca

Paul Williams

Shane Watson

Sav Rocca

Stephen Patterson

Mark Orchard

Mal Michael

James Wasley

Craig Jacotine

Brad Oborne

Dale Baynes

Brad Smith

In total there were 13 players that played senior footy under Malthouse in 2000 that weren't at the club come preseason 2001.

Oh well, so much for that theory.

Btw, it couldn't have done too much harm, as they lost the Grand Final 2 years later by 9 points to one of the greatest teams in history.

[robbiefrom13 887]

... we'll all know more about Mark Neeld toward the end of 2013. I'm hoping he can turn it around, others on both sides have gone the earlier crow. He deserves to see out his 3 year contract. Is he the messiah? A naughty boy? Or something in between?

Time will tell.

No messiah, at this stage, surely - that would be evidenced by results. But the question that can be answered at this stage is about his style or his methods. We can be forming an opinion about that now - and watching to see the outcomes in 2013, which will show the worth of his style and methods.

There are already some things clear about his methods, and some things that may not be entirely clear yet but which must be worth discussing.

He wants contested footy, played around the edges of the oval rather than the middle, and he apparently isn't interested in a player's forward work until he first sees their defensive work. He favours strong bodies and toughness. He has an authoritarian style, using the word "compliance" quite a bit early in his appointment. He is not protective of his players, stating publicly that players not measuring up to his requirements would not be playing (fair enough view, but I wonder at his stating it publicly - what was he intending by that?), publicly criticising individuals (including some pretty young players), he had the final say in a process that stripped long-serving players of their leadership roles, and more recently he has publicly spoken about a big clean-out at the end of the year.

In the "not entirely clear yet" category, I would put the "retirement" of Brad Green (jumped or pushed?), the non-selection of Cook, and his attempts to re-design Jurrah, Moloney, Morton, Magner, Trengove, and maybe others - to be balanced with his success with Jones, Watts, etc. As to whether he is overall effective in this aspect of his player development, it's not clear yet, but it certainly seems that he is pursuing his agenda of getting players to play the game his way or else.

On the evidence of those close to him, we continue to hear players referring to the need for players to buy into Neeldy's approach - which can only mean that this remains an incomplete process. While we all wait for that to be accomplished, we go on losing...

Is the guy a good salesman for his plan? Is it a good plan? Are we looking at a playing group still not on the same page as the coach after almost a year? If so, "why?" is a real question to be asking - and pace RangeRover et al, the answer is not self-evident. Either coach, or players, or a combination of the two, could be the cause of the non-emergence of unity here: coach could be a poor explainer so that he can't be understood, he could be unrealistic in his demands, the players could be recalcitrant, they could be needing help to adapt and not getting it, there could be other issues overshadowing their response to the coach (McClean suggested this), or there just may not be good chemistry so that try as they might, neither side is confident of the other.

A footy club is not necessarily going to improve when restructured onto a military model, with a bullying drill sergeant there to crush out individuality and instil mindless obedience. That approach may cost the footy club some of its real capital.

Malthouse speaking about coaching in relation to Wallace and Port Adelaide refers to players having strengths, and the coach playing to those strengths. The players' strengths are surely diverse; some of our players have creative and unclassifiable strengths (e.g. Jurrah), and perhaps there would be a really serious down-side to devaluing those strengths if we were to be applying a one-size-fits-all approach...

I worked for a number of years at a place that got in a new boss. The new guy came in with "new broom" policies, made big statements, and then began his micro-management - he moved all our desks to where he thought they should be, next to who he wanted us to sit next to, and so on. Lots of new rules, no regard for what existed. We were all told to take all our stuff home, and he got rid of the filing cabinets. Very quickly the experienced staff all got out. Gratified, I suspect, he imported young staff who complied gladly. The place has gone downhill.

So, I am watching with real concern. If Neeld's methods cost us what I value in creativity and skill, and replace it with compliance and football-by-numbers, in an atmosphere of authoritarian bullying, I will be disappointed. Not even sure I'd be that excited over a flag even, if Jurrah and Watts and Green and so on had all been discarded as not quite what Neeld wanted. I still remember the idiocy of sending Robbie Flower into the weights room over summer, to try and make him something other than what he was. But I'll wait and see what outcomes Neeld gets, by the end of 2013. See how he modifies his approach as he gets to know the list - which he said early on he would do. Hope to see that I am wrong in those thoughts I have about worrying trends in his coaching style. If he doesn't prove successful, I hope he won't have done irreparable damage with his as yet unproven methods; even more though, I hope by his success I am proven wrong in my worrying about his style and methods.

Edited August 9, 2012 by robbiefrom13

[Hannibal 5,814]

Not even sure I'd be that excited over a flag even, if Jurrah and Watts and Green and so on had all been discarded as not quite what Neeld wanted.

Moron button.

[Johnny Karate 559]

...

I like your post robbie. I do disagree with some of what you say but there are some really good points in there & you've articulated a good critique of Neeld at this stage. This is much more refreshing than other posters who yell "but we won 8.5 games last year" or "Neeld said we'd be the hardest team play against & we're not yet."

I have no doubt that resistance to change is a real challenge for Neeld in his approach. But he needs to set some standards & non negotiables if we are to have any hope of success.

Ultimately a coach's job depends on his ability to get the players to buy in to his vision. If Neeld can't do this (I hope he can) he's doomed.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

Pretty much the sum of your contributions to these boards.

This post needs a lot more recognition!!! Quality...

[Nasher 33,607]

Malthouse also imported a heap of senior players in his next year like Shane Wakelin, Andrew Williams, Chad Rintoul and so forth. Neeld will (or in my opinion, should) be looking to import senior players in a similar way where possible. There's definitely a lot of similarities between the two situations.

[timD 994]

My observation of it is that there seems to have been a massive over correction in this regard under Neeld. Under Bailey, the one thing the team could do well was spread really quickly to dangerous positions (with almost no defensive side). I can only speculate that Neeld has ruled with an iron fist & demanded total accountability at stoppages with the result being a reactive & static mindset. A guy like Trengove used to hunt the footy, now he waits for his opponent to get it & then tackles him.

I think what we are seeing is a team so afraid of deviating from a determined coach's gameplan that it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Many teams go through these teething problems when a new coach is trying to exert his authority.

I won't debate the playing list, it's clear that Neeld has inherited a mess but ultimately the coach bares the responsibility for what his players bring to the game. I believe that Jamar, Moloney, Jones, Trengove, Magner & McKenzie have enough body & mongrel to do better at the stoppages. The best coaches squeeze every last drop of talent out of what is at their disposal Neeld will live & die by his ability to do this. It won't happen overnight but if we're still having these discussions in 12-24 months time, Neeld is in trouble.

Jimmy, I think that the team won in 2011 when they could dominate the clearances and otherwise sucked because of the lack of defensiveness. You've already talked through the wins from 2011 and my bet is that we won when we were either very much more experienced than the opposition (GCS) or won the cleareances. The problem is that (as ben hur is another incarnation already mentionned) is that we actually don't have really good clearance players. Moloney and Jones are both more 'predator' than '1st dibs'; McKensie and gysberts are better but both a bit small/young and have identified limitations and trengove appears slow/hindered/...

So the lack of held structure around stoppages reflects a past coaching x current personnel issue.

I do also wonder about performance management and teaching. Both magner and moloney have been given forward defensive roles this year, tacking them away from where they are best. It has given me the odd "hmmmmm" this year.

As for getting the best out of the team, we've been in more games for longer this year than last (IMO). We've won fewer games but those wins of 2011 were pretty unimpressive. THe other thing to consider is th forward line. LAst year gree, sylvia and jurrah kicked most of our goals I'd guess. Neeld's barely had these players available this year.

[timD 994]

Robbie, I'm not sure neeld is a pri**k. He is known for his good relationships with players. Players ahve come out and spoken highly of him in the media. He'd know that you cannot just be a belligerent toad and expect people to follow...surely.

[old55 23,323]

but it certainly seems that he is pursuing his agenda of getting players to play the game his way or else.

wowee-wee-wow - unprecedented!

On the evidence of those close to him, we continue to hear players referring to the need for players to buy into Neeldy's approach - which can only mean that this remains an incomplete process. While we all wait for that to be accomplished, we go on losing...

You left out not fit or experienced enough.

a bullying drill sergeant there to crush out individuality and instil mindless obedience.

and then began his micro-management

in an atmosphere of authoritarian bullying, I will be disappointed.

Gold in hyperbole - you're giving the Olympic long-jump record a nudge.

Not even sure I'd be that excited over a flag even, if Jurrah and Watts and Green and so on had all been discarded as not quite what Neeld wanted.

Utterly incredible!

[Hannibal 5,814]

Jimmy, I think that the team won in 2011 when they could dominate the clearances and otherwise sucked because of the lack of defensiveness.

...we've been in more games for longer this year than last (IMO).

That is a good observation.

As for the second part, that may be true, but our "quarters won" is just about the worst on record, which is an indictment on the group and to an extent Neeld. Boy is this a big off season for the club.

[Johnny Karate 559]

Jimmy, I think that the team won in 2011 when they could dominate the clearances and otherwise sucked because of the lack of defensiveness. You've already talked through the wins from 2011 and my bet is that we won when we were either very much more experienced than the opposition (GCS) or won the cleareances. The problem is that (as ben hur is another incarnation already mentionned) is that we actually don't have really good clearance players. Moloney and Jones are both more 'predator' than '1st dibs'; McKensie and gysberts are better but both a bit small/young and have identified limitations and trengove appears slow/hindered/...

So the lack of held structure around stoppages reflects a past coaching x current personnel issue.

I do also wonder about performance management and teaching. Both magner and moloney have been given forward defensive roles this year, tacking them away from where they are best. It has given me the odd "hmmmmm" this year.

As for getting the best out of the team, we've been in more games for longer this year than last (IMO). We've won fewer games but those wins of 2011 were pretty unimpressive. THe other thing to consider is th forward line. LAst year gree, sylvia and jurrah kicked most of our goals I'd guess. Neeld's barely had these players available this year.

There's not much I can argue with there timD.

I've said in another thread that in some way that 2012 is probably an extension of the rot that set in during 2011. I agree that Neeld has inherited a litany of issues to do with personnel & past coaching practice. That said I believe he needs to shoulder some responsibilty for the bad things we are seeing on the field. It comes with the territory.

[The Reverend 1,736]

"burn the club to the ground and start again".

Absolute rubbish!

Can I borrow your book? I'm often at a loss for something really stupid to say. If you won't lend it to me where can I buy it? Is it called "500 Dumbarse Comments for Any Occasion"?

[Hardnut 327]

Malthouse's first year as coach of Collingwood was in 2000. They finished second last.

At the end of his first year he traded, pensioned off, or delisted the following players:

Gavin Brown

Gavin Crosisca

Paul Williams

Shane Watson

Sav Rocca

Stephen Patterson

Mark Orchard

Mal Michael

James Wasley

Craig Jacotine

Brad Oborne

Dale Baynes

Brad Smith

In total there were 13 players that played senior footy under Malthouse in 2000 that weren't at the club come preseason 2001.

Oh well, so much for that theory.

Btw, it couldn't have done too much harm, as they lost the Grand Final 2 years later by 9 points to one of the greatest teams in history.

Purely from memory, but weren't Brown, Crosisca, Watson and Rocca at the end of their careers anyway (or wanting other careers)?

Williams went to Sydney successfully and Michael went to Brisbane successfully?

The others were also rans?

The Collingwood list wasn't full of young talent, so the comparison with MFC is not really there.

The end result is that Collingwood lost yet again, until they got lucky in 2010.

Please correct me if necessary - I admit I haven't checked the detail and my memory isn't perfect!

Despite all this, I think Malthouse did a pretty good job for many years with a very average group of players - the odd star excepted of course!