By round 10 next year Viney will be the player the opposition tags first. The first 9 rounds he will be adjusting to the pace of AFL, he already has the toughness and the silk.

  On 07/05/2012 at 12:00, belzebub59 said:

Sylvia had value...we thoght/think he has more

Moloney, has some sorrtof value...

it all becomes abitrary. We wont get what some think....but maybe nudge value come trading..

It 's a little bit Eastwood......do you see some value punk...well do you?????

If Sylvia can have his usual 'flatter to deceive' season, poll his 10 Brownlow votes against GWS and Port etc ... then he may just pique the interest of a side challenging for a top 4 berth. I'm thinking specifically of Adelaide but other teams like Freo or Sydney might like to enter the fray. That gives him currency in my book, perhaps enough to serve as a make weight in a deal that can secure us a ready-to-go blue-chip midfielder.

Moloney maybe of interest to GWS or GC as a solid 3-year meat and potatoes grunt player to compliment their young guns.

We've got to inject some class into our midfield in a big hurry and this year's trade week looms as D-Day for the MFC in that regard. If Moloney and Sylvia can help expedite that process and get a Dangerfield and/or a Prestia type deal over the line, then I'm all for it.

I'm sick and tired of accepting B-grade performances from these so-called stars of the club. It's time to set the bar higher or really what's it all for?

These guys will get better when they build their bodies up a bit more

  On 07/05/2012 at 11:54, Trident said:

--------K---A---H---A---D--A---CP---A--UP--A---C---A---M--A--HO-A--CL--A--T---A--1--A--GA

.Morton 48 12.0 32 8.0 80 20.0 25 06.3 56 14.0 12 3.0 13 3.3 5 1.3 14 3.5 15 3.8 5 1.3 4

Moloney 43 10.8 27 6.8 70 17.5 46 11.5 25 06.3 10 2.5 06 1.5 0 0.0 31 7.8 13 3.3 4 1.0 4

a=Average

k=kicks, H=handballs, d=disposals, cp=contested, up=uncontested, c=clangers,

m=marks, ho=hitouts, cl=clearances, t=tackles, 1=1%'ers, ga=goal assists

So should whipping boy Morton be averaging more..

kicks,

handballs,

marks,

TACKLES,

1%'ers,

than our reigning B&F winner / top 10 brownlow'er, in 2012?

Amazing stats really......nice work Trident.

Both face challenges to add the hard defensive ethos that Neeld is rightly demanding after the unaccountable years under Daniher and Bailey.

Lets hope they can.

I said 2 years ago that by now Moloney would probably be overtaken by our young midfielders and on the way out.

He hasn't really been overtaken, so much as been exposed.

But I wouldn't get rid of either for draft picks.

I want players in return.

If he were to go to Essendon, I'd want Slattery to come back.

  On 07/05/2012 at 11:54, Trident said:

--------K---A---H---A---D--A---CP---A--UP--A---C---A---M--A--HO-A--CL--A--T---A--1--A--GA

.Morton 48 12.0 32 8.0 80 20.0 25 06.3 56 14.0 12 3.0 13 3.3 5 1.3 14 3.5 15 3.8 5 1.3 4

Moloney 43 10.8 27 6.8 70 17.5 46 11.5 25 06.3 10 2.5 06 1.5 0 0.0 31 7.8 13 3.3 4 1.0 4

a=Average

k=kicks, H=handballs, d=disposals, cp=contested, up=uncontested, c=clangers,

m=marks, ho=hitouts, cl=clearances, t=tackles, 1=1%'ers, ga=goal assists

So should whipping boy Morton be averaging more..

kicks,

handballs,

marks,

TACKLES,

1%'ers,

than our reigning B&F winner / top 10 brownlow'er, in 2012?

A marginal win for Cale in the tackle count for sure. But it's early days. Really need at least 10 matches or so (played by each player) before any comparative stats become reasonably robust IMO. Gotta be able to go the distance deep into the season i reckon.

But seeing as you've put them up and FWIW.....

Cale's winning the uncontested, as you would expect given his role leans more towards being an outside receiver (with the occasional inside chop out). Beamer's winning the clearances and contested, as he should given his grunt/inside focus with an occasional outside run & carry when he isn't trying to counter his direct opponent at the stoppages on a change up.

In addition Beamer's opponent is usually a pretty top line heavy weight (in terms of mid field designated in & under clearance player) who requires close attention and lots of physicality and body work around the stoppages in order to upset/counter that opponent's effectiveness at clearing or clean 1st possessions etc. More draining physically than a mid who's playing mostly an 'outside' role and probably less likelihood of being on the receiving end to rack up a heap of handballs, kicks or marks versus an outside mid.

Also, Beamer may well be feeding off his clearance work or providing blocking opportunities/space (etc) to the likes of Morton and Jones to run into which might be helping to improve their possession count etc. Beamer might not be doing much of this either, but you'd have to watch footage of each game (or the game live) with an eagle eye to pick this up and work out exactly what/how each player is contributing to the role that's being asked, effective or ineffective.

The devil's in the detail. I'm sure the line coaches, together with Neeld/Craig, are on top of all this and are a mile ahead of us arm chair experts in assessing where each player is at and what we need going forward anyway.

I'm sure they'll be giving both Beamer and Sylvia, every opportunity to prove themselves worthy of a place in the team going forward.

Having said that, i believe i've seen some improvements in aspects of Beamer's game this year (disposal an exception lol) in terms of the timing of his runs into the favoured 'hit out' zones and some of his blocking work in the stoppages. He also seems to be keeping his feet a little more than i recall in the past. Minor things and much improvement needed if he's to advance to a higher level, but i have seen it. Although only in small bursts. But the whole team has been doing some decent work 'in small bursts' so he's not alone here.

Sylvia obviously needs more game time after his injury to see where he's at and what he's offering. From what i've seen so far (prior to this year....which is unfair i realise), he's a flashy greedy player (just my OP) and for this reason i think he'd do better at FF. Blood him there for the remainder of the year and see how he goes. Clark to play CHF for most part as the general but leading his player away from the areas Neeld would like to see Sylvia lead into. Not sure if this style of forward play is in the Neeld mix though so a permanent FF probably isn't on the drawing board. As to where you play him other than FF....i just can't see a role/position for him as i've never seen perform consistently anywhere other than 'occasionaly' in the forward line, (eg., against the pies in 2010). So if he's not being considered as a permanent FF (occasionaly pushing up into the mid as 5th man in or to create a 1 on 2 etc), then personally i'd be looking to trade him.

I voted "Move them both on. I've seen enough to know they're not going to get any better. We need to rebuild our midfield and should trade them out now while both have currency." This is on the proviso that we can actually get something for them, otherwise just play them off the bench until contract's are up.

The way our list is now we still need them both. Ask me again in 2 or 3 years and I hope my answer will have changed.

  On 07/05/2012 at 10:02, J-Riv said:

I know Sylvia is frustrating but for the moment we need to lay off him. He's done next to know preseason then had the back injury. At least give him a few games to get some sort of match fitness.

Frustrating he isnt. hHes a non- performing bum. A real shame as he has talent to burn chooses hen he displays it, so disappointing in my book

The way he has performed we wont even know whether he is there or not its irrelevent!

  On 07/05/2012 at 12:34, Wadda We Sing said:

Amazing stats really......nice work Trident.

Wow that says it all Maybe Maloney just looks like he's playing hard rather than actually performing

Great work

Hey guys, first time poster, long time reader.

IMO I don’t think we can get rid of either at the time being.

Sylvia is one of the very few people on our list that can turn a game on its head and win us a game of his own boot (the others being Clark and possibly Jurrah when he gets fit). I realise this happens on the rarest of occasions but like everyone on this board I am sick to death of loosing and being the leagues big joke, so if he can be the difference between us winning and loosing I am happy for him to stay till one of the youngsters can TAKE his spot.

Maloney however is a bit different, I’ve always been a fan but like most supporters here am starting to loose faith in him, which is disappointing because I always believed that he bleed red and blue and he was a great on field leader that would be able to inspire our young crop of mids coming through. Sadly this is looking less and less likely to be the case. But like Sylvia we can not discard him till there is someone who can genuinely take his place. At present we need his big body and experience, if not for anything but to protect some of our young mids. Id hate to see Viney come in and after a few games be getting a heavy tag, struggle a bit then have some of our so called "supporters" tear him a new one.

At the time being we win more games with these two in the team than not! Neither go till theirs players better than them, plain and simple.

  On 07/05/2012 at 12:01, Deez Nutz said:

Round 22 last year.

I stand corrected.... wow... There you go a stand out game.. It stands out as its so rare. Surely this should not be the case. And yet it was coming up contract time if memory serves me correctly!!! golly what a coincidence ( not )

Sylvia is like a boat evryone's waiting to come in. Sadly it seems stuck on a mudflat.

This guy could really be something...could be that player that breaks open games and wrests victory from defeat.

he could be...but he isnt. I dont think he every will.. jmo

  On 07/05/2012 at 12:14, strawberry_gumdrops said:

Moloney will be made obsolete next year due to Viney, but I forgot he was an UFA and we will get SFA for him

.

Negative, he'll be a restricted free agent as Moloney would be in our top 10 earners. He wont be unrestricted until he's had 10 years service, not 8 so he'll still have currency.

I voted to trade them both, but that's only if the season were to end now. If they pull their finger out and finish the season strongly then they'd be worth keeping obviously.

If trading does become an option then I'd be looking at Moloney with our 1st first round compo pick (3/4) to Adelaide for Dangerfield if he wants out. Maybe try and secure McKay also with a later draft pick. And Sylvia and our 2nd first round compo pick (13) to Gold Coast for the Demons fan Prestia. I can only keep dreaming....

whether you think we they are playing well at the moment...We need Sylvia and Moloney more than they need us. Something to remember.

  On 07/05/2012 at 17:42, Good Times Grimes said:

The way our list is now we still need them both. Ask me again in 2 or 3 years and I hope my answer will have changed.

I agree we still need them but I believe one of them will go to another level and still be a key part of the team in 2 years.

  On 07/05/2012 at 22:56, disco_demon said:

whether you think we they are playing well at the moment...We need Sylvia and Moloney more than they need us. Something to remember.

I somewhat disagree... As a team/club we ought not be beholding /grovel like to anyone.

What we need ....is for these guys to honour their side of things and play well. they get paid hansomely to do so. Its their job.

So often its forgotten that this is a professional relationship. We pay..they play. Not if and when..but 100% effort.

Neither are exactly value for money currently. Do we get a refund ???

  On 07/05/2012 at 23:02, belzebub59 said:

I somewhat disagree... As a team/club we ought not be beholding /grovel like to anyone.

What we need ....is for these guys to honour their side of things and play well. they get paid hansomely to do so. Its their job.

So often its forgotten that this is a professional relationship. We pay..they play. Not if and when..but 100% effort.

Neither are exactly value for money currently. Do we get a refund ???

very true...When Sylvia and Moloney are hot...they are fantastic. that's what i was kinda getting at. At the moment there is nobody really forcing them out of the side or could take there spot.

Most here seem to have the view that Moloney and Sylvia aren't great but because they're better options that those with less than 4 years experience we should stick with them. Both are very limited when they don't have the ball. Both have a history of off-field issues. My concern (particularly for those with an interest in the much discussed 'club culture') is what damage is being done whilst they're both still on the list. What will Blease, Gysberts and Taggert continue to learn from these senior role-models?

  On 08/05/2012 at 00:32, Goodvibes said:

What will Blease, Gysberts and Taggert continue to learn from these senior role-models?

That's a question we can only speculate on without knowing the dynamics of the playing list, but I'd say that given that the LG is playing group selected and the playing group shunned Sylvia and Moloney, I'd say the young players are not expecting to learn much from them.

  On 07/05/2012 at 12:04, dees64 said:

Sylvia- air head, only plays 1 good game every 6, always goes missing, not a leader,

Moloney- Not a leader & should have been captain, but issues of the field

Both these guys have had issues of the field, how can you create the right culture when your experience players are not leaders?

Please explain off field issues for Moloney.....

  On 07/05/2012 at 09:29, Biffen said:

Three votes for Captain Sensible!

Worst thread in Demonland history .The apathy thread was more appealing .And more intelligent

So true.

Reading some of the drivel on here, we would end up with a squad of under 18's.

Too many people with too much time on their hands

  On 08/05/2012 at 00:32, Goodvibes said:

Both are very limited when they don't have the ball.

Exactly. Moloney is not defensive enough and is not accountable enough for his opponent.

Stats for 2012 (club)

1st in centre clearances

15th for total disposals

16th for tackles

17th for uncontested possessions (indicates he doesn't run to space)

It's a big decrease since his B&F year.

  On 08/05/2012 at 01:23, maurie said:

Exactly. Moloney is not defensive enough and is not accountable enough for his opponent.

Stats for 2012 (club)

1st in centre clearances

15th for total disposals

16th for tackles

17th for uncontested possessions (indicates he doesn't run to space)

It's a big decrease since his B&F year.

Maybe they too are learning this new game plan. Why is it an excuse for other player and not these two?????

  On 08/05/2012 at 03:21, Bossdog said:

Maybe they too are learning this new game plan. Why is it an excuse for other player and not these two?????

I for one am not making excuses for anyone.