Mate Geelong had 10 players with under 50 games on saturday. It is not good enough. I love being positive about my club. I do not like being conned, which i fear our list is becoming.

It works both ways WYL you yourself have banged on about our lack of leadership from the senior players, Geelong have them so put our 10 most inexperienced players amongst those Cats boys and their would be little difference their kids are no better than ours

jus watched 360 and been listening to Sen and reading newspapers and the MFC is a non issue this year. No wins and no hope of finals after a month and a half. I know I am stating the obvious but this season is like drinking light beer: Whats the point? I still go to games and I'll be there friday more out of habit then anything else. I also know Neeld has turned Bailey's gameplan upside down and we have injuries and our players our still young and blah blah blah but it's kind of boring being above GWS by percentage only.I just want a bit of excitement to come my way from the MFC and not this dull feeling I get when listening about other teams chances of top 8 and top 4. Apologies for being a little [censored] i just needed to vent.

It works both ways WYL you yourself have banged on about our lack of leadership from the senior players, Geelong have them so put our 10 most inexperienced players amongst those Cats boys and their would be little difference their kids are no better than ours

Yes it does work both ways. Moloney 2 possies in the 3rd Q. We should expect to be a lot better than what we are doing. I am not microwaving membership cards but i am far from impressed. The cats kicked 17 17 with a B team. The MFC attitude is not there. It should by now.

Yes it does work both ways. Moloney 2 possies in the 3rd Q. We should expect to be a lot better than what we are doing. I am not microwaving membership cards but i am far from impressed. The cats kicked 17 17 with a B team. The MFC attitude is not there. It should by now.

Never worry about who you haven't got WYL worry about who you have got, that is what makes the Cats good they still have the strong core, we'll get there we have the nucleaus of that core just keep the faith, that is why I like Neeldy he is doing things right

Before the season started I predicted two wins at best before the bye and I nominated Lions and Tigers. I was widely criticised initially, but then the consensus moved to four wins before the bye (a view with which I still disagreed). Sadly, I was wrong and now we are facing the possibility of one or two wins for the whole season! I've been there before in 1981 (one win by one point - Robbie Flower kicked the winning goal at the Western Oval in front of some four hundred MFC supporters) and it doesn't sit any better some 30 years later.

As a whole, MFC have made many mistakes (and done a few good things), particularly since the end of last season - it's time to take a realistic view of where we are at and begin the process of real change which should have occurred last year. The mistakes lie partially in all areas of the club - a serious, no-holds-barred review should be undertaken before the bye - yes, the situation is that serious and it should be totally unacceptable for a club with such a proud history!

Before the season started I predicted two wins at best before the bye and I nominated Lions and Tigers. I was widely criticised initially, but then the consensus moved to four wins before the bye (a view with which I still disagreed). Sadly, I was wrong and now we are facing the possibility of one or two wins for the whole season! I've been there before in 1981 (one win by one point - Robbie Flower kicked the winning goal at the Western Oval in front of some four hundred MFC supporters) and it doesn't sit any better some 30 years later.

As a whole, MFC have made many mistakes (and done a few good things), particularly since the end of last season - it's time to take a realistic view of where we are at and begin the process of real change which should have occurred last year. The mistakes lie partially in all areas of the club - a serious, no-holds-barred review should be undertaken before the bye - yes, the situation is that serious and it should be totally unacceptable for a club with such a proud history!

Didn't we already have a review not so long ago?

The most frustrating thing is I reckon if we played the lions next week we would beat them because we have settled into the the game plan more.

We will possibly go into the bye 0-11. If we keep improving I can also see us come out of the bye with 5 straight wins.

I dont want to seem like an advocate for tanking but I would love to get some strong picks for the Scully debacle. I would rather finish 2nd last with gradual improvement than finish 12th because we managed to catch half a dozen sides dozing. Our list is not good enough to get that 13th premiership. the last drafts were messed up badly. The club needs another crack at early picks if this group is to get a flag. MFC is going ot be compteting against GCS and GWS just when those young guns are hitting their straps. Our list cant compte with that. I want to see Neeld use 2012 as one long pre season training session. leave the players in the side that are struggling for form as a learning exercise for them. This sounds defeatist i guess but we dont have an AFL standard list. we need one otherwise the club will only ever be fighting for 8th spot.

Mate Geelong had 10 players with under 50 games on saturday. It is not good enough. I love being positive about my club. I do not like being conned, which i fear our list is becoming.

True ,but we had probably 3 with 100 plus games where they may have had 10 or 11.

(stats completely invented by me)

Maybe not...you might've been still thinking about last year lol.

WYL is on the money. Cat's had 10 under 50 gamers and we had 9.

We had 7 100+ gamers and they had 10. You might be thinking of last year where we only had 6 100+ gamers versus their 15.

Here's the summary FYI if you wanna take a bit more of a look.....

Total games played

Cats - 2,325 (Last time they played, Rnd 19 2011) 1,981

Demons – 1,573 1,394

Games Average

Cats - 106 90

Demons – 71 63

Height Average

Cats - 188cm , 188cm

Demons – 188cm , 188cm

Weight Average

Cats - 88kg , 90kg

Demons – 88kg , 86kg

Number of players by category

0-49 Games

Cats - 10/16 (number of players/average games played), 3 / 16 (Last time they played)

Demons - 9/24 , 12 /24

50-99 Games

Cats - 2/89 , 4 /80

Demons - 6/80 , 4 /73

100+ Games

Cats – 10/198 , 15 /201

Demons – 7/125 , 6 /136

The most frustrating thing is I reckon if we played the lions next week we would beat them because we have settled into the the game plan more.

With the current mind set/game style.....which is hell bent on focusing on the "defensive" aspects of the game, i very much doubt it...unless Brisbane have gotten alot worse (haven't been watching their games so wouldn't know).

Even when we get ourselves into a winning position deep into a match playing Neeld's defensive way....the boys are unable to switch from "defensive" mode into attack mode and actually take their individual opponent on, run/carry/bounce, break lines, run ahead of the ball carrier, play with flair and precision and kick enough goals to win a match.

I would say we had chances to win (at various points of these matches) against The Lions, The Doggies, The Tiges, The Saints and The Cats....but failed to switch into an attacking/winning mind set when these games were in the balance. We stayed in "defensive" mode and allowed the opposition to take the initiative away from us through attacking football through their run/carry/spread and play on style (with the exception of the Saints game where the more experienced defensive mindset team won IMO).

I'm sure Neeld knows this. But as to why we appear unable to switch into a full on attack mode (which is a great form of defense in itself as it puts doubt/worry into the opponents mind the next time the ball is bounced after we score) .....i'll leave that up to Neeld, the FD and the players to work out. They're getting paid pretty good folding stuff so they should capable of getting this aspect right at some point during the season...I HOPE! In particular our ball handling and kicking skills.....some of the worst i've ever witnessed in the AFL. Maybe that's why we're unable to make the switch effectively

...

I am not sure why you placed all the stats down Rusty as they dont dress the key points. The gulf between the Cats and MFC maybe not so much in the stats but in the clear quality of the playing list particularly the experienced players.

Geelong are still in the glow of one of the best senior lists in the AFL. They are still a team to be feared while they have Johnson, Scarlett and Co running around. The test for them will be in 2 to 4 years as they transition away from these great players. While the worth of the youth is still to be determined they have a wonderful development opportunity and culture.

MFC senior players, regardless of the games played, are woeful. Its left our U23 talent completely exposed without leadership, good example or protection. We are waiting for our talented youth to come through but hell MFC make it so difficult for that to happen.

And with a new coach and gameplan, its going to take at least 12 months to get this right. New gameplans are not learnt and perfected over a pre season.

I am not sure why you placed all the stats down Rusty as they dont dress the key points. The gulf between the Cats and MFC maybe not so much in the stats but in the clear quality of the playing list particularly the experienced players.

Geelong are still in the glow of one of the best senior lists in the AFL. They are still a team to be feared while they have Johnson, Scarlett and Co running around. The test for them will be in 2 to 4 years as they transition away from these great players. While the worth of the youth is still to be determined they have a wonderful development opportunity and culture.

MFC senior players, regardless of the games played, are woeful. Its left our U23 talent completely exposed without leadership, good example or protection. We are waiting for our talented youth to come through but hell MFC make it so difficult for that to happen.

And with a new coach and gameplan, its going to take at least 12 months to get this right. New gameplans are not learnt and perfected over a pre season.

I'm not trying to address any points with them. Was just confirming the numbers for Biff as he was under the impression we had only 3 100+ gamers. Was just addressing the pure numbers in terms of who had what (experience wise) on the ground. Just a context thing for the discussion between him and WYL. As to the quality of the lists and how they got there...that's a story book in itself i would think.

I agree with the rest of your points with the exception that all our senior players are woeful. I wouldn't put Jones in the woeful basket. Nor Rivers, Frawley and Moloney on good days. The latter might have woeful days granted

Ummm...your last point.... i only hope so. I'm thinking 18 months with the present "fielded" list, about half way through next year...and that's just to get this defensive style mastered.

If we can bring in some decent ball users (inside & out/hand and foot), or improve our existing player's disposal skills, their ability to choose the correct options (eg., kicking to our player's advantage etc) and add some serious leg speed ... we might even start winning against a few of the decent teams at some stage later this year or hopefully from the start of the next. But i'm thinking middle of next season before we see a really substantial turn around versus clubs 6 and below anyway. And i'm not even confident on that at this point lol.

I keep hearing the words of Ross Lyon in his interview with SEN when asked... "what was the key factor for you when you first took on the Freemantle list?" ... answer went something like..."to get some wins on the board early and fuel the BELIEF factor".

I am not sure why you placed all the stats down Rusty as they dont dress the key points. The gulf between the Cats and MFC maybe not so much in the stats but in the clear quality of the playing list particularly the experienced players.

Geelong are still in the glow of one of the best senior lists in the AFL. They are still a team to be feared while they have Johnson, Scarlett and Co running around. The test for them will be in 2 to 4 years as they transition away from these great players. While the worth of the youth is still to be determined they have a wonderful development opportunity and culture.

MFC senior players, regardless of the games played, are woeful. Its left our U23 talent completely exposed without leadership, good example or protection. We are waiting for our talented youth to come through but hell MFC make it so difficult for that to happen.

And with a new coach and gameplan, its going to take at least 12 months to get this right. New gameplans are not learnt and perfected over a pre season.

Well said.

Comparing number of games is a frivolous exercise - it's the quality of the experienced players that counts.

This season is proving to be a genuine reality check for the MFC.

Well said.

Comparing number of games is a frivolous exercise - it's the quality of the experienced players that counts.

This season is proving to be a genuine reality check for the MFC.

more like the last 40 years!!

I dont want to seem like an advocate for tanking but I would love to get some strong picks for the Scully debacle. I would rather finish 2nd last with gradual improvement than finish 12th because we managed to catch half a dozen sides dozing. Our list is not good enough to get that 13th premiership. the last drafts were messed up badly. The club needs another crack at early picks if this group is to get a flag. MFC is going ot be compteting against GCS and GWS just when those young guns are hitting their straps. Our list cant compte with that. I want to see Neeld use 2012 as one long pre season training session. leave the players in the side that are struggling for form as a learning exercise for them. This sounds defeatist i guess but we dont have an AFL standard list. we need one otherwise the club will only ever be fighting for 8th spot.

More tanking is the last thing this club needs. The tanking culture of the past is one of the reasons the club is in such a deplorable state today.

I have great faith in the coaching situation. It's the players not learning i am concerned about.

I too have faith in the coaching team, but not to the point of blind acceptance..

Truthfully, I think this excuse of "learning a new game plan" can only last so long.

We have recruited an experienced coaching team. I think we are entitled to expect more.

Fair dinkum, we've been listening to the "rebuilding" / "be patient" stuff for the past 4 years.

MFC supporters HAVE been patient..extremely so IMHO. I think we're entitled to expect more.

Let's face it, we are staring at a shocker. 0-6 puts us fair & square in the basement, no matter how we might be encouraged by improved effort in the past 2 weeks.

I too have faith in the coaching team, but not to the point of blind acceptance..

Truthfully, I think this excuse of "learning a new game plan" can only last so long.

We have recruited an experienced coaching team. I think we are entitled to expect more.

Fair dinkum, we've been listening to the "rebuilding" / "be patient" stuff for the past 4 years.

MFC supporters HAVE been patient..extremely so IMHO. I think we're entitled to expect more.

Let's face it, we are staring at a shocker. 0-6 puts us fair & square in the basement, no matter how we might be encouraged by improved effort in the past 2 weeks.

No arguement there mate. Mark Neeld has been contracted for 3 years. I hope it is much longer, but that will only happen with a vast improvement throughout the whole club.

We had 7 100+ gamers and they had 10.

Doesn't matter a fig if their 10 are elite and our 10 are B or C graders.

I keep hearing the words of Ross Lyon in his interview with SEN when asked... "what was the key factor for you when you first took on the Freemantle list?" ... answer went something like..."to get some wins on the board early and fuel the BELIEF factor".

Again I am not sure what rattling off those stats achieved. What they appeared to indicate was so far from the truth.

Jones is barely 24 and Frawley is 23. Hardly senior players. I was not potting individual players but the group. I would only exclude Jamar.

If you think Neeld took over side similar to side/list that Ross Lyon took over then you are greatly mistaken.

Again I am not sure what rattling off those stats achieved. What they appeared to indicate was so far from the truth.

Jones is barely 24 and Frawley is 23. Hardly senior players. I was not potting individual players but the group. I would only exclude Jamar.

If you think Neeld took over side similar to side/list that Ross Lyon took over then you are greatly mistaken.

No i'm just saying we had X numbers of Seniors (100+ games experience wise....that's 5 years in the system) versus them. The Cats had X number of players with 100+ games experience. Both of which should count for something. As to how much it counts for....i have no idea...and you wouldn't either. But they didn't get to 100+ games by playing like a complete donkey, regardless of which team they're in.

I never said Neeld took over a list as good as Freemantles.....stop putting words into everyone's mouths. All i'm saying is he believed getting a few early (maybe even cheap) wins on the board was important to gain the confidence in the playing group with whatever plan or changes he was proposing or putting in place.

And if you don't think "Belief" within any team playing group (and belief in their coach and his direction) is important...you're sadly mistaken.

Always twisting peoples posts to turn something that isn't an argument into an argument. Missed your calling RR....should've been a politician.

P.S. Frawley shouldn't have been included as a senior player (experience wise)....less than 100 games. My mistake.

Doesn't matter a fig if their 10 are elite and our 10 are B or C graders.

Exactly. It's just a picture of where we're at in terms of the number of games these guys have behind them. It's not an indicator of quality or maturity on the field. What it does show however, whether we agree with it or not, is that the club has had enough faith in this player so far.....to put him on the field 100+ times. That's alot of faith. They must see something in them either presently or for their and our future if we keep playing them beyond 4 to 5 seasons.

why you little' timestamp='1336386614' post='561379']

Mate Geelong had 10 players with under 50 games on saturday. It is not good enough. I love being positive about my club. I do not like being conned, which i fear our list is becoming.

True ,but we had probably 3 with 100 plus games where they may have had 10 or 11.

(stats completely invented by me)

Well said.

Comparing number of games is a frivolous exercise - it's the quality of the experienced players that counts.

This season is proving to be a genuine reality check for the MFC.

Again I am not sure what rattling off those stats achieved. What they appeared to indicate was so far from the truth.

Jones is barely 24 and Frawley is 23. Hardly senior players. I was not potting individual players but the group. I would only exclude Jamar.

If you think Neeld took over side similar to side/list that Ross Lyon took over then you are greatly mistaken.

Maybe this will help you get why i posted the stats to mull over....was never in support of any argument ....but even then you two (RR & Tricky dicky) probably still wont get it....HELLO....KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK....wakey wakey....anyone home???

Maybe this will help you get why i posted the stats to mull over....was never in support of any argument ....but even then you two (RR & Tricky dicky) probably still wont get it....HELLO....KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK....wakey wakey....anyone home???

Calm down Rusty.......we get it, you just posted the stats - no need for knickers & knots.

I stand by my comment regarding the stats, however that doesn't make you responsible for the original # of games comparison - happy with that clarification?

I'm sure those who were paying attention didn't think any less of you

Rusty mentioned learning a 'defensive style' of game. I'm curious why we would want to learn a style that is out of date, as is already being shown by other clubs and especially when we have a more attack oriented list. IMO we need to be innovative on the attacking side, which as was also said, is the best form of defence. (No criticism of you Rusty.)