Narrowing in on either Grimes or Trengove for Captain

[Guest Jackie]

What did you not rate in Junior's captaincy? I thought he was a beauty myself.

I always thought he was a little too reserved and did not impose his personality on the game and teamates. His courage and hardness as a player on the ball cannot be faulted though. Only captain by default. Lack of real leadership in the playing group has been debated for many years.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

I always thought he was a little too reserved and did not impose his personality on the game and teamates. His courage and hardness as a player on the ball cannot be faulted though. Only captain by default. Lack of real leadership in the playing group has been debated for many years.

Interesting...i never felt that at all with junior. His AA selection was a credit to him. Junior led with head held high through very dark times. I admire him greatly.

I do agree the club has had a lack of leaders for decades but junior was a ripper.

[Allus Monk 568]

This time last year it was down to two candidates. Have we totally written off the other contender for 2011 - Aaron Davey?

[Nasher 33,613]

This time last year it was down to two candidates. Have we totally written off the other contender for 2011 - Aaron Davey?

Yes.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,166]

I haven't read all the posts but has much consideration been given to Moloney, Jones, Frawley or Rivers - even Jamar?

I'm conservative and favour keeping Green purely as a stand in for one year to let Grimes and Trengove have a little more time. But I understand the counter arguments.

I do not understand how players are respected and viewed from a player standpoint however from the outside this is my view.

Moloney and Frawley for mine do not have the polish that I think is required from a corporate and media standpoint. Rivers had an improved year last but I am not convinced he is firmly entrenched in our starting 18. Jamar I think needs to step into the leadership group before I would go the next step with him and at his age I doubt that will happen. Jones is an interesting one, starting 18 player, good trainer and hard worker on the field reasonable media performer. I would not rule him out but for me there are still intangible things with Trengove and Grimes that make me lean to one of them.

[Akum 2,660]

Neeld was quite explicit about the process for selecting the captain in a radio interview on Saturday. He said that the coaching staff were drawing up a list of leadership attributes that they consider to be necessary for a club captain, and they will each rate every player under every one of these attributes. The input of the playing group will also be sought, but it sounds like it won't be as influential as it seemed to be under the Leading Teams model. The final decision will actually be Neeld's and his alone, though obviously you'd expect he'd take the views of others into account to some extent.

The implication of this is that there are unlikely to be maneouverings in the captaincy - i.e. Green (for example) to be appointed captain for this year to allow Grimes & Trengove a year to "audition" for the captaincy in 2013 & beyond. Furthermore, it looks like the captain will be selected purely because of their leadership or captaincy attributes (they may or may not be the same thing) in the here and now, rather than their potential at some time in the future.

Therefore, if a young captain - Grimes, Trengove, or even Jones - is selected, it will be because of their demonstrated leadership attributes as of late 2011 & early 2012 in the opinion of the coaching staff overall, and as such, they will have immediate legitimacy. This only makes the final choice even more interesting. It won't necessarily be the most popular with the players, or the one who may be the best captain in 2015.

I think MFC has had enough of "selections" (in various ways) being made on future potential rather than on current form, and it seems to me that Neeld has made a strong stand against this type of thinking. This process of selecting the captain bears this out even more strongly IMHO.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Akum

[Hannibal 5,814]

I haven't read all the posts but has much consideration been given to Moloney, Jones, Frawley or Rivers - even Jamar?

I'm conservative and favour keeping Green purely as a stand in for one year to let Grimes and Trengove have a little more time. But I understand the counter arguments.

He's been a fine player and I'll always remember him as such, but I won't have a high regard of his reign as captain.

After much thought my preference is for Green's retention as captain with Trengove as co-captain. I've never liked co-captains and I only favour it for one year, but I see a number of benefits:

- it gives the playing group a clear direction for the future

- it allows Trengove an opportunity to settle into the role with an experienced hand at his side

- it gives Green the chance to make ammends for a poor year

- a very young list has a nice balance of youth and age to give guidance

Michael Voss captained the Bears at the age of 21. He was co-captain with Alistair Lynch in his first year. I like the dynamics that Green and Trengove could provide and it helps solve some of the issues the club has with captain candidates. Michael Voss' success as captain is meaningless from a Melbourne point of view, but the co-captaincy in his first year clearly didn't do him any harm.

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

Akum my real issue is I don't fully understand the role of Captain. Neitz said he took a couple of years to adjust to it and he'd been around for a while when he got it. Green may well have been affected by it last year, and I agree BH, he struggled with the position.

I just don't want to burden Trengove or Grimes with the position and take their focus from footy because neither has really matured as a player. My conservativeness says I'd rather have Green as Captain for a year and preserve Trengove and Grimes than risk their football development.

It's a very difficult decision and there is clearly no obvious answer but my tip is Trengove will get it.

[H_T 3,043]

I haven't read all the posts but has much consideration been given to Moloney, Jones, Frawley or Rivers - even Jamar?

From those you mention, I don't think Rivers has even rated a mention. All the others have been mentioned from the posts I've skimmed on this thread.

IIRC someone mentioned he occassionally had bad body language or something.

[Deetective Sgt. Taggert 389]

Neeld was quite explicit about the process for selecting the captain in a radio interview on Saturday. He said that the coaching staff were drawing up a list of leadership attributes that they consider to be necessary for a club captain, and they will each rate every player under every one of these attributes. The input of the playing group will also be sought, but it sounds like it won't be as influential as it seemed to be under the Leading Teams model. The final decision will actually be Neeld's and his alone, though obviously you'd expect he'd take the views of others into account to some extent.

The implication of this is that there are unlikely to be maneouverings in the captaincy - i.e. Green (for example) to be appointed captain for this year to allow Grimes & Trengove a year to "audition" for the captaincy in 2013 & beyond. Furthermore, it looks like the captain will be selected purely because of their leadership or captaincy attributes (they may or may not be the same thing) in the here and now, rather than their potential at some time in the future.

Therefore, if a young captain - Grimes, Trengove, or even Jones - is selected, it will be because of their demonstrated leadership attributes as of late 2011 & early 2012 in the opinion of the coaching staff overall, and as such, they will have immediate legitimacy. This only makes the final choice even more interesting. It won't necessarily be the most popular with the players, or the one who may be the best captain in 2015.

I think MFC has had enough of "selections" (in various ways) being made on future potential rather than on current form, and it seems to me that Neeld has made a strong stand against this type of thinking. This process of selecting the captain bears this out even more strongly IMHO.

I wonder if two or more players come out as equal using this methodology they will appoint co-captains...

[Akum 2,660]

Akum my real issue is I don't fully understand the role of Captain. Neitz said he took a couple of years to adjust to it and he'd been around for a while when he got it. Green may well have been affected by it last year, and I agree BH, he struggled with the position.

I just don't want to burden Trengove or Grimes with the position and take their focus from footy because neither has really matured as a player. My conservativeness says I'd rather have Green as Captain for a year and preserve Trengove and Grimes than risk their football development.

It's a very difficult decision and there is clearly no obvious answer but my tip is Trengove will get it.

Fan, I totally agree. If it was up to me, I'd choose Green for another year with Trengove & Grimes as VCs & other senior players in the LG. I agree with those who say that there's no ideal candidate, but I think that this time next year that either Trengove or Grimes will have stamped themselves as an obvious choice, and we will then have a much firmer knowledge of who's the best to take us forward.

My point is that Neeld has clearly stated the way he's going to do it, and it doesn't sound like the way I'd do it, but it's probably for the best. And I'd say that if we end up with one captain, that's because one player has clearly stood out through this process as having the best captaincy attributes right now rather than in 12 months time. If there are two who are neck-&-neck - whether it's an "older" & a "younger" (e.g. Green & Grimes) or whatever - we may end up with co-captains.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I cannot believe anyone would want Green as Captain again.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

I cannot believe anyone would want Green as Captain again.

I agree. You don't keep doing something if it doesn't work. And last year having Brad as Captain did not work. I do not blame Brad he did his best and having spoken to him just before christmas he is a ripping bloke, but he is not a Captain.. It is not in him. David Neitz was always going to adjust to it...remember Luke McCabe's shoulder. Neita made statements. Greeny will make them as a player. The new captain will shine through this month as training progresses. Edited January 19, 2012 by why you little

[Still Waiting 94]

My mail is Green wont be seriously considered to captain again.

Several players including some quite senior ones, have been given the mother of all rev ups, as they are seen to be not serious enough about doing all the hard yards with the right attitude. " Tougher is better".

Apathy will not be tolerated anymore and the whole playing list has been warned to lift their training efforts, BIGTIME!

This spray has happened behind closed doors and not in front of supporters. The danger was that younger players would accept this mediocre attitude again................IT WONT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES!

Some with bruised egos have been told to grow up and go harder or go home! Lets see if my informer has it right.

[Guest Jackie]

My mail is Green wont be seriously considered to captain again.

Several players including some quite senior ones, have been given the mother of all rev ups, as they are seen to be not serious enough about doing all the hard yards with the right attitude. " Tougher is better".

Apathy will not be tolerated anymore and the whole playing list has been warned to lift their training efforts, BIGTIME!

This spray has happened behind closed doors and not in front of supporters. The danger was that younger players would accept this mediocre attitude again................IT WONT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES!

Some with bruised egos have been told to grow up and go harder or go home! Lets see if my informer has it right.

I would box in Green, Davey and Sylvia for the tinnitis trifecta.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Jackie

[jacey 333]

I cannot believe anyone would want Green as Captain again.

Grimes captain.

Trengove and Mckenzie vices.

They are young but IMO if you're good enough, you're old enough.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

My mail is Green wont be seriously considered to captain again.

Several players including some quite senior ones, have been given the mother of all rev ups, as they are seen to be not serious enough about doing all the hard yards with the right attitude. " Tougher is better".

Apathy will not be tolerated anymore and the whole playing list has been warned to lift their training efforts, BIGTIME!

This spray has happened behind closed doors and not in front of supporters. The danger was that younger players would accept this mediocre attitude again................IT WONT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES!

Some with bruised egos have been told to grow up and go harder or go home! Lets see if my informer has it right.

I suspected this would be the case, so like yourself i hope it is fact. We have enormous talent on this list. But the toughness must be grown, not just in body shape but in the head.

[Hannibal 5,814]

My mail is Green wont be seriously considered to captain again.

Several players including some quite senior ones, have been given the mother of all rev ups, as they are seen to be not serious enough about doing all the hard yards with the right attitude. " Tougher is better".

Apathy will not be tolerated anymore and the whole playing list has been warned to lift their training efforts, BIGTIME!

This spray has happened behind closed doors and not in front of supporters. The danger was that younger players would accept this mediocre attitude again................IT WONT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES!

Some with bruised egos have been told to grow up and go harder or go home! Lets see if my informer has it right.

I hope you're right. While i put forward a proposal of a co-captain a few posts ago I was really just trying to think outside of the square and appease those that think it will fall back to Green because of a lack of options. He was hopeless last year and ideally they'll be a change.

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

I hope you're right. While i put forward a proposal of a co-captain a few posts ago I was really just trying to think outside of the square and appease those that think it will fall back to Green because of a lack of options. He was hopeless last year and ideally they'll be a change.

I reckon it's tough because to me there doesn't appear to be a good option. Because of that I favour the option that could do the least damage. I don't like that position at all.

I hope Neeld has seen the answer and I'll trust the FD judgement.

[Akum 2,660]

My mail is Green wont be seriously considered to captain again.

Several players including some quite senior ones, have been given the mother of all rev ups, as they are seen to be not serious enough about doing all the hard yards with the right attitude. " Tougher is better".

Apathy will not be tolerated anymore and the whole playing list has been warned to lift their training efforts, BIGTIME!

This spray has happened behind closed doors and not in front of supporters. The danger was that younger players would accept this mediocre attitude again................IT WONT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES!

Some with bruised egos have been told to grow up and go harder or go home! Lets see if my informer has it right.

I've heard something similar. And it's not who you'd think.

[Demonsterative 3,020]

I dont think Greens year was as bad as some have said. 37 goals from a medium forward is a good result. Its his 2nd best goal out put in a year, in his career.

This was in a year the whole forwardline was woeful and he had to contend with many issues as a player and captain

No KPF to feed off.

Playing on the best or 2nd best backman. Jurrah was the only forward who was dangerous enough to take the best backman.

According to champion data he is in the elite category for his position (top 10% in the leaugue).

His conversion rate (goals to behinds) was very good. 25 behinds.

inside 50's was one of the worst in the league.

Dated game plan. Defensive pressure was woeful in all parts of the ground. Green should not take soul responsibilty for this deficiency.

Imploding board, Administration and FD. No-one had boundaries and stayed within their roles. Cant blame the captain for that. Especially when very experienced leaders/managers within the club imploded. Idividuals in his own leaders group stuffed up big time too.

IMO Greens stats were good as a player. It wasnt his best year and it wasnt his worst. But he did perform well. I dont think anyone can judge him as captain as the club fell over in every dept. Barassi, Flower, anyone would have struggled under the same circumstances.

[640MD 3,375]

My mail is Green wont be seriously considered to captain again. Several players including some quite senior ones, have been given the mother of all rev ups, as they are seen to be not serious enough about doing all the hard yards with the right attitude. " Tougher is better". Apathy will not be tolerated anymore and the whole playing list has been warned to lift their training efforts, BIGTIME! This spray has happened behind closed doors and not in front of supporters. The danger was that younger players would accept this mediocre attitude again................IT WONT BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN WITHOUT CONSEQUENCES! Some with bruised egos have been told to grow up and go harder or go home! Lets see if my informer has it right.

There has been a lot to like from Neeld since he was appointed and this report, if its kosher, is anuther one in a good list

I'm liking 2012 more and more,,,,,,

Go Dees Give 'em HELL!!!

[DeeSpencer 25,678]

I dont think Greens year was as bad as some have said. 37 goals from a medium forward is a good result. Its his 2nd best goal out put in a year, in his career.

This was in a year the whole forwardline was woeful and he had to contend with many issues as a player and captain

No KPF to feed off.

Playing on the best or 2nd best backman. Jurrah was the only forward who was dangerous enough to take the best backman.

According to champion data he is in the elite category for his position (top 10% in the leaugue).

His conversion rate (goals to behinds) was very good. 25 behinds.

inside 50's was one of the worst in the league.

Dated game plan. Defensive pressure was woeful in all parts of the ground. Green should not take soul responsibilty for this deficiency.

Imploding board, Administration and FD. No-one had boundaries and stayed within their roles. Cant blame the captain for that. Especially when very experienced leaders/managers within the club imploded. Idividuals in his own leaders group stuffed up big time too.

IMO Greens stats were good as a player. It wasnt his best year and it wasnt his worst. But he did perform well. I dont think anyone can judge him as captain as the club fell over in every dept. Barassi, Flower, anyone would have struggled under the same circumstances.

Did you watch the games or did you just read the stats.

Facts about Green in 2011:

- He kicked a lot of cheap goals from handballs over the top of goals late in games that were over, likewise he'd bob up for 3 or 4 goals in games we won by 100 points

- He didn't chase with any where near the effectiveness needed from a medium size forward in the modern game

- He got a lot of ball delivered to him as the designated full forward a lot of the time

- His second efforts were atrocious because he often went to ground or was pushed off and had no agility or acceleration to chase

- He attempted to mark too many balls on the chest, which made him way too easy to defend if he had a reasonable defender on him

- He could have no impact as a captain in games we were losing

Both Jurrah and Green had reasonable goal kicking years in 2011, but overall their years were very poor.

[Demonsterative 3,020]

I watched the games. Stats dont lie perceptions do.

[Range Rover 1,935]

I watched the games. Stats dont lie perceptions do.

Then you need a perceptual readjustment old boy. Green was a shadow of his former self in '011.

Re the captaincy, people need to disabuse themselves of this tired notion of it being too much of a "burden" for a youngster.

It's a worrywart mindset, not a winner's one.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Range Rover