Yes and he is one of the reasons we are not doing well this year.

Last year is now history, just another year the MFC finished in the wrong half of the ladder.

How long do you keep playing him because he used to be great?

Agree, however saying that he has "had one reasonable game the rest have been poor" since the start of 2010 is just not correct.

No Belzebub, it's not just punishing davey. The bigger message is being sent to the whole group. If we can punish a leadership player when we are running short of players, for such a soft play, then we will drop anyone who doesn't stand for the Team Values...

Yep

Also Belze, i can see your side somewhat. However, he can cop all you've suggested and more ....in the magoos

It started last year, in the game against carlton they tagged him out.

I think it was evident last year and now everyone knows it.

Not sure how he gets around the problem but if he does not learn how to defeat a tag we may have seen the best of him.

His form this year is a large part of our problem.

he is one of our senior players ( vice captain )that should be leading the team, showing the juniors.

But what we have is a guy taken out of games by taggers and he is now looking petulant and giving little.

In fact he has cost dearly in important parts of games.

His kicking used to be superb but it has gone missing in most of the games this year.

I just think he needs a game or two at Casey to get some perspective back.

Actually I think it started when Michael Osborne from Hawthorn tagged him at the G about 3 years ago...I could see how much it put him off that day and nothing has changed

He must be dropped. His game was totally unacceptable on so many levels.

Seriously ... do you want to try to give Carlton a fright or not?

Have we got a better chance of upsetting Carlton with Davey or without him? The answer is obvious.

Will the other players - including those lacking confidence - actually play better without Davey in the team ? Will Carlton be easier to beat if they don't have to sacrifice a player to shut down Davey?

He's played 100 better games than the game he played on Saturday .... and its odds on that he'll play a much better game again this week.

Agree, however saying that he has "had one reasonable game the rest have been poor" since the start of 2010 is just not correct.

Sorry I meant 2011, you are correct he had some great games last year.

Seriously ... do you want to try to give Carlton a fright or not?

Have we got a better chance of upsetting Carlton with Davey or without him? The answer is obvious.

Will the other players - including those lacking confidence - actually play better without Davey in the team ? Will Carlton be easier to beat if they don't have to sacrifice a player to shut down Davey?

He's played 100 better games than the game he played on Saturday .... and its odds on that he'll play a much better game again this week.

Why is it odds on?

Carlton know exactly how to take him out of the game.

And IMO they will win easy if he is in or not.

Edited May 24, 201114 yr by old dee

Yep

Also Belze, i can see your side somewhat. However, he can cop all you've suggested and more ....in the magoos

I fully understand teh angst against him.. I share it. But my kneejerk turned to a more considered stance. Was interesting that Grant Thomas essentially spoke the same idea last night.. Make him play, he has nowhere to run, nowhere to hide etc. ...on the G !!

Might I suggest a recent transgression ...Moloney. Many also thought it was instant banishment to the magoos or suspension. The club thought that would be more a punishment to the rest of the team than to the individual. . They had him carry out his pennance in ful view..and at ful tilt on the big stage. Seems to have done him wonders.

Might a similar stance , backed with proper retribution and warning provide similar dividends ??

I fully understand teh angst against him.. I share it. But my kneejerk turned to a more considered stance. Was interesting that Grant Thomas essentially spoke the same idea last night.. Make him play, he has nowhere to run, nowhere to hide etc. ...on the G !!

Might I suggest a recent transgression ...Moloney. Many also thought it was instant banishment to the magoos or suspension. The club thought that would be more a punishment to the rest of the team than to the individual. . They had him carry out his pennance in ful view..and at ful tilt on the big stage. Seems to have done him wonders.

Might a similar stance , backed with proper retribution and warning provide similar dividends ??

Grant thomas, ummhh, one of the Giants!.... and where are the Saints, still, after he was there and when he left? And Ross Lyon is still trying to sort the cutural jungle there.

OK then, play him. Play all the soft ones, and don't set any rules or values to aspire to.

Only Punish the ones who are seen to be a little tarnished, the ones who seem a little unpolished, or unwashed, or a bit of a misfit in a boutique clique. Lets trade Beamer and while were at it, Frawley next. Then McKenzie, before they want to leave a soft go nowhere club, a little like the Saints.

In fact maybe one day not too far away, we can merge with the saints 'cause our creed is so similar. It would be a snug fit.

He also got the most Brownlow Votes for Melbourne (tie with Sylvia)

That was then......

Grant thomas, ummhh, one of the Giants!.... and where are the Saints, still, after he was there and when he left? And Ross Lyon is still trying to sort the cutural jungle there.

OK then, play him. Play all the soft ones, and don't set any rules or values to aspire to.

Only Punish the ones who are seen to be a little tarnished, the ones who seem a little unpolished, or unwashed, or a bit of a misfit in a boutique clique. Lets trade Beamer and while were at it, Frawley next. Then McKenzie, before they want to leave a soft go nowhere club, a little like the Saints.

In fact maybe one day not too far away, we can merge with the saints 'cause our creed is so similar. It would be a snug fit.

Do you too not read..or comprehend ?

Where have I said not punish him ?

Letting him prance around the magoos is not punishing him. Thats light duty. Out of the greater public's scornful glare.

Give him hard duty agianst Carlton.. make him pck up Judds coat -tails..run the bloke ragged. Then he;ll be glad to go back to his normal role.

Tell him nothing short of 100% is adequate or acceptable., tell him we want to see him put on some decent tackles., we want him to wear him. Make his life hell.

Funny thingis..he used to do just that reallyt. He WAS everywhere, hed run peopel down , hed run around them like a Bluey. he'd worry others sick.

Let him find just a modicum of this back and he'll have served his punishment. Let him get easy and casual stats at Casey, what does that really achieve ?

Do you too not read..or comprehend ?

Where have I said not punish him ?

Letting him prance around the magoos is not punishing him. Thats light duty. Out of the greater public's scornful glare.

Give him hard duty agianst Carlton.. make him pck up Judds coat -tails..run the bloke ragged. Then he;ll be glad to go back to his normal role.

Tell him nothing short of 100% is adequate or acceptable., tell him we want to see him put on some decent tackles., we want him to wear him. Make his life hell.

Funny thingis..he used to do just that reallyt. He WAS everywhere, hed run peopel down , hed run around them like a Bluey. he'd worry others sick.

Let him find just a modicum of this back and he'll have served his punishment. Let him get easy and casual stats at Casey, what does that really achieve ?

You want him punished by playing the role he used to play or by playing him as a tagger?

Seriously ... do you want to try to give Carlton a fright or not?

Have we got a better chance of upsetting Carlton with Davey or without him? The answer is obvious.

Will the other players - including those lacking confidence - actually play better without Davey in the team ? Will Carlton be easier to beat if they don't have to sacrifice a player to shut down Davey?

He's played 100 better games than the game he played on Saturday .... and its odds on that he'll play a much better game again this week.

If Davey plays this friday night it sends the wrong message to the entire list.

I do not care how many games he has played, all the more reason for last saturday to be Totally unacceptable.

Do you want this list to mentally toughen up or do you want everybody to just be nice and look presentable in our new look jumper?

No Pain No Gain.

Scully In (sub)

Davey Out (Casey)

You want him punished by playing the role he used to play or by playing him as a tagger?

Judd will need effectively double manning. Assign one to wear him per se.. and Davey to shadown him. The two can mix and match it and work it between themselves. But he can work to nullify his effectiveness.

The way Davey is playing currently his riole can be easily covered . Give him a simple task..well simple as in not wideranging.

Davey observing Judd first hand wil linstruct him in the nature of workrate, ethos, gnd etc. All things he lacks currently

Were not going to beat Carltonthis weekend, but its an opportunity for some to learn lessons.

Do you too not read..or comprehend ?

Where have I said not punish him ?

Letting him prance around the magoos is not punishing him. Thats light duty. Out of the greater public's scornful glare.

Give him hard duty agianst Carlton.. make him pck up Judds coat -tails..run the bloke ragged. Then he;ll be glad to go back to his normal role.

Tell him nothing short of 100% is adequate or acceptable., tell him we want to see him put on some decent tackles., we want him to wear him. Make his life hell.

Funny thingis..he used to do just that reallyt. He WAS everywhere, hed run peopel down , hed run around them like a Bluey. he'd worry others sick.

Let him find just a modicum of this back and he'll have served his punishment. Let him get easy and casual stats at Casey, what does that really achieve ?

I responded to that post.

I've disagreed with playing him in a Melbourne Jumper this week. Thats why I disagree with keeping him in the Jumper. these players play for the status, for the 'Feeling' they get in the jumper running around with the crowd yelling. Missing that is the best way to get through to a cosy player.

edit: He's had weeks of warnings to sharpen up. He's been on the edge for a while. Times up flash.

Edited May 24, 201114 yr by dee-luded

I fully understand teh angst against him.. I share it. But my kneejerk turned to a more considered stance. Was interesting that Grant Thomas essentially spoke the same idea last night.. Make him play, he has nowhere to run, nowhere to hide etc. ...on the G !!

Might I suggest a recent transgression ...Moloney. Many also thought it was instant banishment to the magoos or suspension. The club thought that would be more a punishment to the rest of the team than to the individual. . They had him carry out his pennance in ful view..and at ful tilt on the big stage. Seems to have done him wonders.

Might a similar stance , backed with proper retribution and warning provide similar dividends ??

Personally I don't feel a first offence drinky poos a few hours after curfew warrants demotion to the Magoos Belze.

In response to this i also refer to my thread yesterday at 7.40pm on page 1 of this post.

I don't believe any situation where Davey is on the field this week sends the correct signal, either within or outside of the club respect and example wise.

Unfortunately i fear the FD of the MFC aint got the balls to do it though and he'll be in this week as if nothing happened. Hearing Rivers speak earlier this week, he seemed to confirm that's what will be happening sadly.

Is this the sort of culture that will win us a big one? I mean seriously, we just gotta toughen up guys or we're toast for however long this club can survive in this league whilst never winning the big one. Maybe that's what we're satisfied/happy with at the MFC period....just surviving.

If i was playing down there (eg., Scully et al), and yeah i'm not i realise, but just putting myself in their shoes for a minute,personally if they didn't drop him (or any other player) after that joke of a game he put in last week, i'd be looking elsewhere once my contract expired. Unless i got wind that the coach that decided to keep him in the team the following week was going to be replaced shortly (ie. end of season) by an A grade coach who i believed would no longer take this crap and would attempt to turn that type of WAP culture around.

Not the kind of behavior i'd want to see being rewarded with another game in the seniors, regardless of what role they assign him (using it as some form of punishment).

What if they do assign that kind of role to him and it doesn't come off? And i mean big time doesn't come off, like Juddy plays a blinder (not uncommon i know lol), and effectively is the difference between the two teams?

One of 2 things could happen.

> Scribes and critics might say..."what a shocking decision it was by the Coach/FD in playing him in such a role"; and/or

> They'll question the decision to actually play him and the balls or lack thereof of the Coach/FD in making the decision (to include him) rather than sending the right signal to the rest of the playing group with a visit to the magoos.

Either way we'll look crap.

Yep, you could argue that it might work as well and Juddy gets nullified (at best). In that case not much will be said from off field commentators i wouldn't think. However, i'd be very surprised if our playing group felt OK and good about it and it wouldn't stick in the back of their minds. And if they didn't/don't after this week (assuming he's in), i think there's seriously something wrong down there culture wise.

These have to be part of our non negotiables if we're going to turn ourselves around (on the field) into a respected and serious contender in years to come and for many years thereafter. We need to if we're to create a successful era and legacy on and off the field, maybe even a new powerhouse to rival the other top Vic clubs in 5 - 10 years time.

One of your fav ex coaches, Dean Laidley, is quoted as saying you only have once chance to get the culture right at a club. If you don't, it takes many years of trying in order to fix it. I wonder if Bailey's taken his shot at it already...

Rusty..I read your post ,actualy with some interest as it does address the situaton. There is however no gaurantee in any of this. Thats possibilbly something many seek. Granted , that sdesirable.

I dont necessarily expect anyone to say "win" on Judd or such. Thats not really the litmus. Its how they go about that role. The attitude etc., the efforts...and second efforts etc. .

Im not even going to suggest theres a right or wronmg way, just different wayys and the one Ive outlined is my particular preference.

On your call re Bailey, Laidley and culture, you may very well be absolutely right, the ship may have sailed.

No Belzebub, it's not just punishing davey. The bigger message is being sent to the whole group. If we can punish a leadership player when we are running short of players, for such a soft play, then we will drop anyone who doesn't stand for the Team Values...

What better place to punish someone than right in front of those you wish to conve ya message to ? Show them what will happen shoudl you not put in 100%..i.e you; be asked to put in 150%!! They can all watch as Davey is flogged in front of them...not nicely out of sight. Conversely, Davey might actually rise to the occasion and further inspire his team mates.

Am happy enough should I be one out here. Its my view.

What better place to punish someone than right in front of those you wish to conve ya message to ? Show them what will happen shoudl you not put in 100%..i.e you; be asked to put in 150%!! They can all watch as Davey is flogged in front of them...not nicely out of sight. Conversely, Davey might actually rise to the occasion and further inspire his team mates.

Am happy enough should I be one out here. Its my view.

Hasn't worked and won't scare the other soft players by punishing them with a feather, giving them a frown and play them in the backline as punishment. Bennell would go for that punishment, as would Morton, as would Petterd. Oh wait, they are our part time defenders.

I normally respect your views Belze, but not this time, at a time when we are light on for Top leadership & our onfield leaders are faultering and soft. It's time to make a statement my freind.

Edited May 25, 201114 yr by dee-luded

Its academic. He is likely to miss due to knee soreness.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/just-when-davey-looked-safe-knee-lets-him-down-20110524-1f2ik.html

Unlikely to be playing at Casey either.

Oh dear! I read too Davey has knee soreness. Won't be able to see the specialist till Friday. Knee soreness must be in plague proportions if he has to wait till then for an examination. What are the chances he will miss the rest of the season I wonder?

What better place to punish someone than right in front of those you wish to conve ya message to ? Show them what will happen shoudl you not put in 100%..i.e you; be asked to put in 150%!! They can all watch as Davey is flogged in front of them...not nicely out of sight. Conversely, Davey might actually rise to the occasion and further inspire his team mates.

Am happy enough should I be one out here. Its my view.

The only way we can punish Davey by playing him in the seniors this weekend would be to make him sub. Playing him out of position is one of the most bizarre comments I've heard, but each to their own. B59, it does look like you're on your own with this one.

I don't really understand your opinion of Casey being some sort of holiday, that is unless you have played there lately. I imagine Davey would get BOG at Casey, probably pick up 30+ possessions, but I'm sure if he were to play there, he would know that he has certain areas of his game to work on, and if he doesn't do that, he'll continue to play there.

To say that dropping Davey to Casey is not punishment is laughable.

Oh how bloody predictable...ffs

And the man at the back said everyone attack and it turned into a Football Fizz !!!

Oh boy! AFL team can't get an appointment with an orthopaedic surgeon before Friday... Do you think Didak would have had the same trouble making an appointment?!?! Would prefer if Bailey had embargoed this and made a statement of dropping Davey, which would have been even easier if he wouldn't have played anyway!

The only way we can punish Davey by playing him in the seniors this weekend would be to make him sub. Playing him out of position is one of the most bizarre comments I've heard, but each to their own. B59, it does look like you're on your own with this one.

I don't really understand your opinion of Casey being some sort of holiday, that is unless you have played there lately. I imagine Davey would get BOG at Casey, probably pick up 30+ possessions, but I'm sure if he were to play there, he would know that he has certain areas of his game to work on, and if he doesn't do that, he'll continue to play there.

To say that dropping Davey to Casey is not punishment is laughable.

it would be a dodddle for him at Casey.. He is all said and done a level above VFL..itd be a cake walk for him and that would suit just fine...hes just f@#$%ng lazy sh!t !! What does that achieve ?? really. Its a Get out of Jail free card. He has a Happy little run, feels all smug about himself. Gets to do it out of real eyesight of most of Melbournes spectators. Too easy.

Sometimes you do have to put someone in unfamilar territory in order for them to actually reinvent their thought patterns. Get them out of their comfort zone, for sure thats where he is, playing comfortable footy. He still picks up his massive paycheck. Big Whoop'd de do .

You know the old one "if you continue to repeat what doesnt work you're doomed to failure". In stead of changing down a gear.. change up and work harder.

But hey..tis all moot apparaently

We have to change his habits...and get him working again.

it would be a dodddle for him at Casey.. He is all said and done a level above VFL..itd be a cake walk for him and that would suit just fine...hes just f@#$%ng lazy sh!t !! What does that achieve ?? really. Its a Get out of Jail free card. He has a Happy little run, feels all smug about himself. Gets to do it out of real eyesight of most of Melbournes spectators. Too easy.

Sometimes you do have to put someone in unfamilar territory in order for them to actually reinvent their thought patterns. Get them out of their comfort zone, for sure thats where he is, playing comfortable footy. He still picks up his massive paycheck. Big Whoop'd de do .

You know the old one "if you continue to repeat what doesnt work you're doomed to failure". In stead of changing down a gear.. change up and work harder.

But hey..tis all moot apparaently

We have to change his habits...and get him working again.

I'm with you on this one, 'bub. He'd probably get BOG at Casey without getting out of second gear, and it would prove nothing. He needs to do it hard, not do it easy, and Blues would make sure he'd do it hard.

I'm up for a bit of ritual humiliation as much as the next masochist, but to do any good it needs to have a purpose. Cruising for 30+ possies at Casey isn't going to help us overcome the problem.

But as in a previous post, it sounds like it's all academic as the "soreness" card has been played.