If we were to look for uncompromising 'hardness' and 'never say die' qualities in MFC players since 1985, who would be the players you would name, present list excluded? In other words, those who were NOT an example of the 'soft' culture we're debating. Would Todd Viney be one of those?

Stynes, Viney, Sean Wight, G Lyon, R Grinter...I may add some more later.

Hawthorn is probably a better example than Collingwood for the reasons you say, but there is of course more to success than simply culture. Resources, luck, injury management, list management, etc.... all are major factors.

You can keep chipping away at culture, and I think the admin has been doing that for quite a few years. A few examples that come to mind are engagement with supporter groups, re-integration with MCC, Casey community based work, some key appointments (CC is a great example), etc... But yes, we have a way to go.

If you need any more example that we are not there yet, look at the way we treated James McDonald. That was human error underpinned by cultural issues.

Some good points, and I think the current administration has done an enormous job in trying to re-establish the identity, respect, and sense of worth of the MFC. It's very difficult to have a culture of success and winning, when the club has been a financial bus crash, has operated in sub standard facilities, has had board upheaval, and basically been fighting for its survival, much less to win games of footy, and flags.

To change the way an organisation operates, thinks, acts, etc is not an easy thing to do, but from what I see, I have never felt more positive about the future, and think the culture already has changed considerably.

The thing I like about the way the club is run now is that tough decisions are made when they need to be, and there is renewed expectations across the board to perform. Make no mistake about it, our culture is improving, and changing.

You could view the James McDonald issue as a positive or a negative, in that they made a tough call on a player in his 30's who had come off a hamstring injury, and they called time on his career for the longer term interests of the club and team. That was a hard call to make, and I've got no doubt the people in and around the club would have loved him as much as the supporters, but the decision says a lot about the current mindset of the club, and the direction they are taking. I'm not sure it highlights any cultural inadeqacies..........it may not have been the right decision in hindsight, but I don't know it can be pointed to as a reference for a bad culture.

Matthews is too old to take on full time coaching....he is happy in the media.

Hawthorn is the only club he would remotely consider returning too.

It was reported last week that Bailey and Matthews were seen having lunch then a late Cam Schwab arrived at the table. Could he be mentoring DB or what.

I think Dermie is usually reasonable when he talks about Melbourne. I would like to see Dermie down at the club and talking to the players about what he meant by his comments. Not just the same old same old but bring someone in from the outside to give a more objective point of view. If someone who has nothing to gain but yet is admired (most of the time)for his own footballing abilities came in and told some of the Melbourne players (and we know who to point the finger at) that they were essentially weak well, we may get more than the platitudes that we seem to get every second week. Are we saying that the culture at Melbourne is that we accept mediocrity. That we slump back to excuses - young developmental side, injuries, lack of facilities (past). Why is it that other teams get over adversity when it happens whereas we fall back into our shell when there is the slightest sugggestion that the other team want it more than we do. Have we along with the players, for too long accepted mediocrity.

Have the supporters been part of the culture at MFC. After the West Coast game I think Melbourne supporters changed. I have never seen an outpouring of demand for change. At the time it was a change of coach by some but it was more. It was more because it signalled to the Club that we no longer accepted insipid performances. In the past we felt that it was our lot in life and we got angry but never in the open, never for the other Clubs to see that we were angry. We weren't like the Collingwoods and Essendons of the football world. We didn't behave like that. We were no less passionate but we never allowed ourselves to show the Club/players that we expected more. Maybe the supporters have to take the blame to some extent and now take the lead in challenging the "culture" of the Club. Jimmy and Cam have done a great job because you could not get any two more passionate Melbourne supporters (along with Chris Connolly)but there is something wrong in the football department that cannot seem to get more than a week of passion from the players. But why is it up to the FD, why don't we have the personnel to take up the leadership on field. I want to see more of Greeny grab his jumper and tell the world and his team mates that this is why he is playing. I want to feel the stomach churning feeling that I had at MCG two weeks ago when Liam ran up to the Melbourne supporters and fist pumped. I want to see that passion that we all have here on the field. I want to see the second and third efforts, the scrambling after the ball on the ground, the crunching (legal) tackles (welcome back Jordie), the running, running and more running. I want to see the boys gather around each after each goal and do it all for each other. Dunstall unfortunately is right. The football culture has to change. The Club culture thanks to Jim already has.

(I feel better now - rant over)

It was reported last week that Bailey and Matthews were seen having lunch then a late Cam Schwab arrived at the table. Could he be mentoring DB or what.

I think Dermie is usually reasonable when he talks about Melbourne. I would like to see Dermie down at the club and talking to the players about what he meant by his comments. Not just the same old same old but bring someone in from the outside to give a more objective point of view. If someone who has nothing to gain but yet is admired (most of the time)for his own footballing abilities came in and told some of the Melbourne players (and we know who to point the finger at) that they were essentially weak well, we may get more than the platitudes that we seem to get every second week. Are we saying that the culture at Melbourne is that we accept mediocrity. That we slump back to excuses - young developmental side, injuries, lack of facilities (past). Why is it that other teams get over adversity when it happens whereas we fall back into our shell when there is the slightest sugggestion that the other team want it more than we do. Have we along with the players, for too long accepted mediocrity.

Have the supporters been part of the culture at MFC. After the West Coast game I think Melbourne supporters changed. I have never seen an outpouring of demand for change. At the time it was a change of coach by some but it was more. It was more because it signalled to the Club that we no longer accepted insipid performances. In the past we felt that it was our lot in life and we got angry but never in the open, never for the other Clubs to see that we were angry. We weren't like the Collingwoods and Essendons of the football world. We didn't behave like that. We were no less passionate but we never allowed ourselves to show the Club/players that we expected more. Maybe the supporters have to take the blame to some extent and now take the lead in challenging the "culture" of the Club. Jimmy and Cam have done a great job because you could not get any two more passionate Melbourne supporters (along with Chris Connolly)but there is something wrong in the football department that cannot seem to get more than a week of passion from the players. But why is it up to the FD, why don't we have the personnel to take up the leadership on field. I want to see more of Greeny grab his jumper and tell the world and his team mates that this is why he is playing. I want to feel the stomach churning feeling that I had at MCG two weeks ago when Liam ran up to the Melbourne supporters and fist pumped. I want to see that passion that we all have here on the field. I want to see the second and third efforts, the scrambling after the ball on the ground, the crunching (legal) tackles (welcome back Jordie), the running, running and more running. I want to see the boys gather around each after each goal and do it all for each other. Dunstall unfortunately is right. The football culture has to change. The Club culture thanks to Jim already has.

(I feel better now - rant over)

Good stuff..

If Matthews is quietly mentoring Bailey, that is a great thing,

We need some outside successful ideas to bring in...Lethal always gave 110% on & off the park.

Getting smashed here but am I wrong to want an answer to the question, what is football culture??

Surely it involves a tangible issue we can discuss, no?

For the record, I agree with the general sentiment of the article. Brereton targeted the players mentality and rightly so but Dunstall's comment about culture was void of any substance.

it's an interesting topic and i'd be happy to discuss. culture seems like a load of crap.....it should be a load of crap.....but it's not. there are too many consistent theme's for almost every football club over the years when players and coaches have come and gone. lets take a club like Essendon; yes they were no good last year with an average list, but with that same average list they have put together 7 pretty impressive performances in a row. when is the last time, even with a mature list, that you have seen us put together a start to a year like this? For Melbourne it plays out like this.....great first up performance, very good second, very good third, get happy with ourselves and lose to a team near the bottom of the ladder. then start the usual talk about rebounding and bouncing back. why is it so?......

Stynes, Viney, Sean Wight, G Lyon, R Grinter...I may add some more later.

Just as I suspected wyl, all the players you have named are from the Northey era....the only time in my life as a Melbourne supporter when I KNEW the team would leave it all on the park. As has been mentioned, they were a shade short on premiership ability as a team, but they were hard, and never lay down.

Now who on that list is currently at the club, and has been through coaching apprenticeships at other clubs? I was convinced Todd Viney would put himself forward for the gig post Neale Daniher, but maybe he didn't feel he had the experience at that time. I know he's not the 'premiership' coach many feel we HAVE to have, but isn't he the type of 'culture' we're looking for?

I think Malthouse or Matthews would be a huge mistake. I cannot imagine Malthouse maintaining his enthusiasm for coaching at another 'development' club, and Matthews time has passed. Paul Roos is worth considering if he was interested, and beyond that, if there aren't any premiership coaches available, why not Todd Viney?

MELBOURNE forward Colin Sylvia says it is time for his club to "stand for something".

Lets hope that the players can actually do something about it now, like Chapman did at Geelong when it made it clear to his team mates during the 07 season that they were not putting in as hard as they could, and thought that they were better than they actually were playing.

I hope someone has an honesty session at Melbourne during the week, the fact that Brereton comments on the talent our list has says something.... he also says in more flowery terms that they are also as soft and lazy as SHI&

Nice Jordie. Although i've heard Dermy trying to solve our cultural problems previously when we've hit the pit in 96 97!!. Suffice to say it had little impact.

As for the Northey comparisons (WYL i think?), i wouldn't say that's a culture we kept around the club for long. Maybe up to 1994. We may have tried to but. Northey departed as we couldn't or didnt want to extend his contract for whatever reasons ($/terms etc) from memory...and with him went the culture he brought and the willingness of the players to die for the jumper. Yes there were a few good years afterwards whilst the players that had come through that culture remained and maintained the effort/practices learnt etc (and we also added the enigma of Jakovich into the mix). However, I think the magic was lost with departure of Northey.

In essence i personally don't think the culture at the MFC has always been bad (as stated by WA in an earlier post). But whether it was backed up by best practice facilities and skills training etc at the time of the Northey/Balme years (as referenced by WYL) is another matter.

Yep. I also believe it's time for the boys to look each other in the eye just as you say Chappy asked the cats to do in 2007. TIME FOR HONESTY!!

But we need some of our guns back and more experience under the belt amongst the top rookies if we're gonna be able to cover so many outs.

Agree that gut running ability (or willingness to do this type of hard work) is missing once the heat is on. Hopefully honesty (hard work using new facilities and state of art programs etc) and fine tuning the list/players will overcome this. Not holding my breath on any of this but given we've only just got our hands on these state of the art facilities etc i'm willing to give it 2 more pre-seasons at least before i'll be convinced our culture is totally stuffed going forward lol.

But agreed, it's the way we capitulate when the heat is on, and how we hum when all's going sweet that really cuts (chicken's thread below).

Just as I suspected wyl, all the players you have named are from the Northey era....the only time in my life as a Melbourne supporter when I KNEW the team would leave it all on the park. As has been mentioned, they were a shade short on premiership ability as a team, but they were hard, and never lay down.

Now who on that list is currently at the club, and has been through coaching apprenticeships at other clubs? I was convinced Todd Viney would put himself forward for the gig post Neale Daniher, but maybe he didn't feel he had the experience at that time. I know he's not the 'premiership' coach many feel we HAVE to have, but isn't he the type of 'culture' we're looking for?

I think Malthouse or Matthews would be a huge mistake. I cannot imagine Malthouse maintaining his enthusiasm for coaching at another 'development' club, and Matthews time has passed. Paul Roos is worth considering if he was interested, and beyond that, if there aren't any premiership coaches available, why not Todd Viney?

gotta agree. Matthews's (like Blight's) time has passed

The article is Spot on for mine, it has been a problem at Melbourne for a long time.

I believe it will be difficult to change, DB has had 3+ years and a large change of personel

and achieved no culture change.

Given the injuries we now have I struggle

to see us winning more than 5-6 games this year.

That being the case DB is gone so what for 2012.

I doubt that an untried coach could achieve a culture change it needs a older successful Coach

who has the steel to force it through.

It seems to me that there are only two people who could produce the required change at present.

Both may be doubtful starters as coaches but IMO they are Malthouse and Matthews.

Malthouse will be hard to get, if he wants to leave there will be a bidding war as there will be a number of spots available next year.

Matthews has shown no sign of wanting to return to coaching but he has the steely determination to get the job done.

Neither of them would be cheap but you get what you pay for, both are multi GF winners at different clubs.

We should do whatever it takes to get Matthews IMO he is the guy for the job.

so hardwick is not doing a good job at Richmond ?

l see more change at richmond then melbourne DB should never have got the job that simple !!!!!!!!!!!!

l wanted Hardwick back then and got shut down on this site for saying that.

all things come around again and the old coach that will but you on your ass for stepping out of line will come back

not a coach that thinks a tap on the hand is hard DB is soft the club is soft and anyone that thinks all is looking good is f*cking soft to.

you turn up to work to do a job and if my boss offered me a match payment on top of my base wage to work l would put my body on the line.

all l can say is the afl is soft the melbourne players are soft unless your on facebook or twitter grow up BOYS your working in a mans world

The Attitude of Hawthorn is to "NOT LOSE" same with Essendon...When these clubs dip, the problem is found and fixed. Period.

We at the MFC still bring out excuses.

I would drop Brad Green to Casey next week....That might fix up a problem pretty quick.

If you want to Captain this great Club....earn it.

>> NOT LOSE (find anyway to win!) culture comment.....spot on.

>> Greeny suggestion. Not so spot on. Maybe look for alternative captain somehow. Eg., Moloney. As to how you do this i have no idea, not a shrink . Greeny's being managed poorly position wise. Doesn't have tank engine wise to match it with the big/younger boys in middle now. Leave up forward. Rotate off bench. Use energy to lead, mark and kick goals. After all when he has the energy and he's on....he's the most accurate goal kicker in the team (or was until this season within 50...yep..not saying something's up...but give this option a chance and lets see). Hopefully that'll leave him with something in the tank to also ...CHASE and tackle in our forward 50! (among others!!)

These are 2 guys with a vested interest in our failure. They clearly know that if we keep doing what we're doing and stick to our guns we'll be a dominant side over the next few years.

I don't know why anyone would think you don't know what your on about WA. Really, you couldn't have said this better unless you were on our playing list. This is exactly the prolem with our club and its suporters right now. There is no reward for simply finsiheing bottom and stockpilling draft picks.

At some point we need to stand up. The penny has dropped with Colin Sylvia but not a low of the others yet.

The line in the article which said that the Melbourne players looked at the scorebaord a few minutes into the last quarter and gave up nails it as well becasue that is exactly the feeling I had at the time and it was all too familiar.

You seem to lurk around these message boards waiting for WYL to post so you can jumnp on it and shoot him down. Strange.

No. I just challenge facetious or ridiculous statements...regardless of who posts. WYL just posts so many of them.

No. I just challenge facetious or ridiculous statements...regardless of who posts. WYL just posts so many of them.

It's for your entertainment Rhino...You're up to over 11,000 posts so i like to keep you active.

Just don't change sentences around to things i haven't said..That is not cool sunshine.

Just don't change sentences around to things i haven't said..That is not cool sunshine.

I always quote you WYL in case you meander down the "Oh this is what I was saying" when you get found out repeatedly by others that it clearly wasnt.

Its a poor habit to have WYL. Even Joe Hockey would not try and stretch the truth that far.

It's for your entertainment Rhino...You're up to over 11,000 posts so i like to keep you active.

Just don't change sentences around to things i haven't said..That is not cool sunshine.

Wish some on our list would show as much venom as you two!

I always quote you WYL in case you meander down the "Oh this is what I was saying" when you get found out repeatedly by others that it clearly wasnt.

Its a poor habit to have WYL. Even Joe Hockey would not try and stretch the truth that far.

whatever, it's to cold to argue tonight...We just don't agree..

Wish some on our list would show as much venom as you two!

Too Right Rusty....i think Roy Slaven should coach this Rabble next year!!!!

Dermott coach?

Its a poor habit to have WYL. Even Joe Hockey would not try and stretch the truth that far.

Your real name isn't Mark Latham is it "Rhino"

Your real name isn't Mark Latham is it "Rhino"

Your real name isn't Mark Latham is it "Rhino"

Its unlike you to snipe Daisy.

Its unlike you to snipe Daisy.

Well you broke the unwritten law of introducing politics unkindly so I felt you deserved some of your own medicine back.

I just couldn't help myself

I was also curious why Joe Hockey got singled out when there are much better porky peddlers to pick from

I don't know why anyone would think you don't know what your on about WA. Really, you couldn't have said this better unless you were on our playing list. This is exactly the prolem with our club and its suporters right now. There is no reward for simply finsiheing bottom and stockpilling draft picks.

At some point we need to stand up. The penny has dropped with Colin Sylvia but not a low of the others yet.

The line in the article which said that the Melbourne players looked at the scorebaord a few minutes into the last quarter and gave up nails it as well becasue that is exactly the feeling I had at the time and it was all too familiar.

Yeah righto, you're only about the 10th person to get into me for that comment. The discussion has moved on.

I was also curious why Joe Hockey got singled out when there are much better porky peddlers to pick from

Fair point. Its just that every time I hear Joe Hockey talk about economics or the budget...well its our taxes at work.

Some guys live for the rush

Has anyone asked him re the Dees in 2012?

if he is not available what do you propose?

Please do not say Roos he has said a number of times he is not coaching an AFL team in the next couple of years.

Look forward to your thoughts.

Just like James Hird said he would not be coaching any time soon because he was too busy. Let's make him an offer he can't refuse.