There's insufficient evidence for us to draw a conclusion on a Bailey flag. The fact is Bailey can't prove he can do it until he does it - he can provide indicators but good judges like Hannabal and Billy are interpreting the same indicators in opposite ways. The club has control in the Bailey decision and most people are saying we should wait and see - funny about that eh? In the end we'll have to make a decision and it will probably be without a whole lot more definitive information. Therefore I reckon a factor is who you think the replacement could be - if it's Malthouse or Roos that's a different story from say Sanderson or L.Cameron and different again from Eade or Laidley.

I think that that's a very fair call. I don't see a lot of point dumping Bailey for another untried coach.

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I have two questions for the apologists. 1. Why do you take any criticism of Bailey so personally ? At the end of the day I want success and I'm not much fussed who gets it. If it's Bailey that's great, but if there was a chance of securing Malthouse or Roos I'd be keen to explore it. Some of you seem emotionally invested in Bailey (I understand why one of you is). Maybe you're just delightfully fair people. Although it's noticeable that most of you are the old Demonlanders that right on cue jump to the beat of a couple of others.

2. Do you think that behind the scenes the club just brushes any concerns about his performance aside as quickly as most of you, or do you think that they too are very closely monitoring his performance and any perceived areas of weakness ?

Edited June 6, 201114 yr by Hannabal

The same could be said of the Bulldogs this year. Is Eade a bad coach? I thought you belonged with the chorus of Melbourne supporters who felt they couldn't really judge Bailey until this year. Half way through the season we've established that your concerns above are valid but surely the consistency issue can be explained by age, experience and the level of injuries we've had. I was concerned by our form prior to injuries too but 3 or 4 games is too small a sample to judge our coach on. What would Bailey need to do over the second half of the year for you to give him an extension? We're usually patient when it comes to young players improving maybe we should show our coach the same level of patience. Coaches can change and improve too. I too think you've placed far too much emphasis on Viney's quote regarding tactical training earlier in the year. Call me a stalker but it's your number 1 goto when you're having a crack at Bailey. We've had reports from pre-season training suggesting work was done on implementing and playing against a forward press. It took Clarkson three years to implement his premiership-winning zone.

PS sorry about your Dreamteam performance this week. Chin up!

Let me get this straight. You're concerned about how my Dream Team is going ??

There's no doubt that some events haven't helped Dean. Some events have been beyond his control. I won't harp on again about some areas of concern and I'll admit that one of the main reasons I jump on my bandwagon is because of Snoopy and that Artie fellow. If they weren't so sycophantic in their support I'd ease up. If they found Bailey standing over a dead body with a smoking gun in his hand they'd immediately assume that someone else did it and threw the gun to an unsuspecting Bailey that just happened to be walking by. If Artie caught Bailey sleeping with his wife he'd apologise for the interruption.

Edited June 6, 201114 yr by Hannabal

That's tremendously noble of you to be fighting on behalf of the majority on Demonland by restoring the balance of the debate.

Anyway it's good to know that, deep down, you have been swayed by the arguments against your position.

That's tremendously noble of you to be fighting on behalf of the majority on Demonland by restoring the balance of the debate.

Anyway it's good to know that, deep down, you have been swayed by the arguments against your position.

Gday Bobby. Another moth.

No-one has swayed me of anything. The defence of Bailey is full of the obvious. Why don't you list them for me and we'll go through them together. If one of them is earth shattering then please share it. I suspect I'll be hearing crickets.

I think that that's a very fair call. I don't see a lot of point dumping Bailey for another untried coach.

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I have two questions for the apologists. 1. Why do you take any criticism of Bailey so personally ? At the end of the day I want success and I'm not much fussed who gets it. If it's Bailey that's great, but if there was a chance of securing Malthouse or Roos I'd be keen to explore it. Some of you seem emotionally invested in Bailey (I understand why one of you is). Maybe you're just delightfully fair people. Although it's noticeable that most of you are the old Demonlanders that right on cue jump to the beat of a couple of others.

2. Do you think that behind the scenes the club just brushes any concerns about his performance aside as quickly as most of you, or do you think that they too are very closely monitoring his performance and any perceived areas of weakness ?

I don't see anyone taking criticism of Bailey personally - but I'm reminded of Ulysses and the Sirens. There's information that both affirms Bailey and raises questions about him and I'm sure those behind the scenes feel the same way - as I said there's insufficient information to know whether he's a flag coach. I've posted that simulating Collingwood's current gameplan wont win the 2014 flag, equally I'm unconvinced by our erratic performance - but even that can interpreted negatively or positively - flat-track bullies or when we finally get it consistently right we'll be very hard to beat. I'd certainly entertain Roos' and Malthouse's availability - I want a flag and I'm concerned that we have a tight window. A decision will have to made towards the end of the year - replacement by a coach who has won recent flags or an extension (maybe only for one year) are currently both open to me. Does that make me an apologist?

Does that make me an apologist?

Not at all. You post reasonable thoughts with no sniff of an agenda.

The main point in my post was regarding this talk about us not playing modern football. I'm asking if in 2-3 years time, maybe it is us that is playing modern football and that other teams will be trying to copy us. It's a thought that not many have, but it's hardly getting ahead of myself?

We seem to be in regular agreement on this point. Many are focussed on the game plan of the current day - hopefully we are developing one for tomorrow.

But it is getting ahead of yourself. If you keep digging like this you can probably find tons of other similarities with successful clubs at some stage in their development. Means nothing, except feeds the fantasy ego.

Billy is merely offering his opinion that Bailey has the goods for the job. Many others proffer the opinion that Bailey is no good which is an equally premature call. Don't think there is anything wrong with Billy's opinion even if you mis-interpret it as fantasising.

Oh, and if there are actually tons of other similarities with successful clubs, doesn't that suggest something...

The real problem is that people's expectations of where we are at right now are way off reality. Would be nice to be a top four contender or even a consistent performer but it's not where we are at right now. It's not necessarily all Bailey's fault, it is the nature of young teams. I know people hate hearing that but it's fact. Half the football world creamed itself over GC's 66 point loss to Geelong last week becaue of the promise of good things to come. The team we fielded this week was younger and look at how well they played. We have had some amazing and some shocking results this year but as the group matures, the gap will get narrower and we will be happier as a supporter group.

I think that that's a very fair call. I don't see a lot of point dumping Bailey for another untried coach.

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If it's Bailey that's great, but if there was a chance of securing Malthouse or Roos I'd be keen to explore it.

I can't see that anyone would argue with that legitimately and the vast majority of Demonland will agree with you. I have little doubt that the club will explore the feasibility of those options. At the same time there is half a season to run, and history has shown us that strange things can happen in this game.

I think you are doing a bit of shadow boxing here H.

Let me get this straight. You're concerned about how my Dream Team is going ??

No, not concerned just being a smartarse. I'm having a shocker this year and for once I'm actually trying.

Gday Bobby. Another moth.

No-one has swayed me of anything. The defence of Bailey is full of the obvious. Why don't you list them for me and we'll go through them together. If one of them is earth shattering then please share it. I suspect I'll be hearing crickets.

I already did, but unfortunately all I heard were crickets ....

.... Tasty, tasty crickets. Yum.

lol

Only Hannabal could take a position that is the reasonable, if more eloquent, reflection of what the majority of Demonland is thinking and phrase his position as the brave view of the suppressed minority.

Damn the apologists!! Save the Empire!!

This thread is hilarious.

Some of it is better than the writing on the West Wing.

I think I just saw a tumbleweed filled with chirping crickets.

I think I just saw a tumbleweed filled with chirping crickets.

For such an innocuous and tepid fellow in person you do have quite the ego on-line, Bobby.

Wtf are you talking about ? Ask any question and I'll give you an answer. I always have.

I stated for years that we'd be "consistently inconsistent" until we addressed our midfield. We all know that midfields are fundamental to flags. I never agreed with your pygmy forward-line theory and argued accordingly.

I was happy to leave the thread alone, but I'm more than happy to engage as you seem so eager.

Why don't you list them for me and we'll go through them together ..... I suspect I'll be hearing crickets.

It's very nice of you to humour me by allowing me the honour of letting you answer the questions I put forward. Especially since you asked me to ask you the questions (and then doubted that I would ask them, saying you "suspect [you'll] be hearing crickets"). Maybe, since you keep missing the post, I'll put it here so that you we can "go through them together".

"You seem to be holding on to Viney’s quote for everything. You have the quote, but I’m not sure that you know how to use it.

You said yourself that West Coast’s structure took 2 years to put into place properly. They couldn’t play the style properly until this year and everyone called them a rabble with no direction, no gameplan and appalling footskills. Suddenly now they are a disciplined unit. What has happened?

And if it took a far more experienced side like West Coast 2 years to play a style properly, why do you give Bailey only one preseason to have it properly implemented? Especially given that the bodies are smaller, there is a lack of influential senior players and he has to do it with a third world midfield?

You say that it cannot be turned on and off like a tap. So why, then, do you think that we changed game styles for the Adelaide game? Clearly we have been trying to do that all year, but have been unable to implement it as well as we did against Adelaide.

I have not said that Bailey is definitely the man for us. But I haven’t yet seen anything that conclusively tells me that he is not. I don’t think you have either, based on your arguments.

I do believe, however, that the hardest thing to do is create the machine. Once you create the machine then any monkey can operate it. I think that Bailey is assembling a very good machine. If Bailey proves that he is incapable of operating it then I’ll hope that we replace him. But if he doesn’t prove he is wrong for job then I hope that he continues because, as I said, he appears to be building a good machine.

You obviously don’t know me very well, based on your questions. This is probably why you find it so hard to debate with me. It’s easier when you try to see the debate from different perspectives, rather than try to simplify it to a point where you can understand. The beauty lies in the complexities, although it can be thankless arguing with those who wish everything to be simple."

As for who I am (A question which you seem perpetually confused by)? As with everything in life the answer is neither black nor white. I am many of the people that you've seen and debated with .... yet also none of them.

As, I'm sure, are you. And that's what makes life so interesting.

Edited June 7, 201114 yr by Axis of Bob

I don't see anyone taking criticism of Bailey personally - but I'm reminded of Ulysses and the Sirens. There's information that both affirms Bailey and raises questions about him and I'm sure those behind the scenes feel the same way - as I said there's insufficient information to know whether he's a flag coach. I've posted that simulating Collingwood's current gameplan wont win the 2014 flag, equally I'm unconvinced by our erratic performance - but even that can interpreted negatively or positively - flat-track bullies or when we finally get it consistently right we'll be very hard to beat. I'd certainly entertain Roos' and Malthouse's availability - I want a flag and I'm concerned that we have a tight window. A decision will have to made towards the end of the year - replacement by a coach who has won recent flags or an extension (maybe only for one year) are currently both open to me. Does that make me an apologist?

This is pretty much along my thoughts. Although regarding your concern that we have a tight window, I think you've brought this up before briefly in some other thread and I was wondering if you could expand your thoughts here. What are the contributing factors in your opinion that lead you to this assumption ?

My thoughts are apart from the obvious of retaining our better players, that our window - with IMO the makings of a very good nucleus - could result in a sustained longer period of competitive football and a window that's not as tight (ie. the Bulldogs window of recent time which appears now shut for the time being). Bailey has often described the very competitive streak in our young exciting players. I see it somewhat as well as their leadership attributes that appear to be simmering; just waiting to come to the boil. Whether it's Bailey (yet to be confirmed) or another coach of the ilk of a Paul Roos or whoever, this group of players play a hell of an exciting game when up and running, yet they're still playing in their infancy years - I'm talking the core players (ref: rpfc's measurements of 2011 core players). I don't think it will be as tight, at least I hope it's not.

This is pretty much along my thoughts. Although regarding your concern that we have a tight window, I think you've brought this up before briefly in some other thread and I was wondering if you could expand your thoughts here. What are the contributing factors in your opinion that lead you to this assumption ?

My thoughts are apart from the obvious of retaining our better players, that our window - with IMO the makings of a very good nucleus - could result in a sustained longer period of competitive football and a window that's not as tight (ie. the Bulldogs window of recent time which appears now shut for the time being). Bailey has often described the very competitive streak in our young exciting players. I see it somewhat as well as their leadership attributes that appear to be simmering; just waiting to come to the boil. Whether it's Bailey (yet to be confirmed) or another coach of the ilk of a Paul Roos or whoever, this group of players play a hell of an exciting game when up and running, yet they're still playing in their infancy years - I'm talking the core players (ref: rpfc's measurements of 2011 core players). I don't think it will be as tight, at least I hope it's not.

GC/GWS?

GC/GWS?

Certainly one/two factors.

Geelong, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Carlton ? Three or four more.

Free agency? Cuts both ways though in theory.

Certainly one/two factors.

Geelong, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Carlton ? Three or four more.

I think the major difference is that the AFL are setting the other teams up to succeed, and their window will be opening not too long after ours, thus impacting on our chances.

Of course, I agree with what you've said re: our window when we're thinking about our own list (I say of course, because I've said the same thing more than once).

Free agency? Cuts both ways though in theory.

Certainly would be some sort of factor. I've heard (don't know for certain it will come to fruition - it may) eventually the bigger or better performed clubs will attract those keen on moving. ie. large supporter bases, more consistently well performed clubs will be quite attractive.....I say this, yet I have no inclination as to how things will unfold, I've gone on reports from those familiar with the US re: free agency in professional sports.

Free agency? Cuts both ways though in theory.

Yeah right, Dream on.

CHris Judd nearly came to Melbourne Ha haa hah ha.

Yes, GC/GWS and free-agency are the reasons I think our window is tight. If you believe in our draft driven chances then you have to believe that GC and GWS will be even stronger because just on raw numbers they'll have a greater draft advantage - I did the numbers some time back - there's a post somewhere on here. Free-agency is going to favour the richer clubs.

Just on those thinking Bailey gives players a cuddle at the breaks, go and watch the footage from Friday night that Ch7 put together of the Carlton game. Just because he's having a word in a player's ear doesn't mean it is a good one.

Why will free agency give the bigger clubs an advantage?

The TPP still applies. Clubs will find it hard to get a player with "independent arrangements" because the "original" club only has to match the "predator" club's TPP contract offer to retain the player (or lose him in the normal draft situation). This means to a large extent that IA will not be effective in players being able to move.

Free agency will attack clubs with rich lists where good players aren't getting opportunity. At this stage I don't fear it other than we might lose a bit of our depth in future years.

I'm interested in your thoughts Old.

Restricted FA I agree, but IA will be big with unrestricted FA.

Edited June 8, 201114 yr by old55