Prime Reality

[old dee 23,871]

No doubt an opportunity was missed in 2000 - we missed out on a flag when that particular list was in its prime (~2003-2004). We also missed out on a flag during the Northey era. Who knows why - it could've been poor player development, it could've been rotten luck due to injuries, it could've been poor coaching, it could've just been that the players we had just plain weren't good enough.

I still don't see the link between then and now though, other than the name of the club. The staff and player rolls were completely different during both those eras and are completely different again in this era. There's absolutely no logic in concluding that this time will be the same as last time because none of the variables are the same - that's just your emotionally battered footy heart saying that.

Nasher I see one "variable" that has not changed.

It is "Mongrel" we still have no players that suggest to me that they would run through a brick wall to get the ball.

No Nasty types who just want to win at all costs!

Even our coach looks like a nice guy. When was the last time he looked like it really hurt when we lost.

No Mick Multhouse stares from Him.

I know it does not happen over night but lets get serious.

Winning is what matters.

PS we are all too nice as supporters as well we except losses to easily.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Nasher I see one "variable" that has not changed.

It is "Mongrel" we still have no players that suggest to me that they would run through a brick wall to get the ball.

No Nasty types who just want to win at all costs!

Even our coach looks like a nice guy. When was the last time he looked like it really hurt when we lost.

No Mick Multhouse stares from Him.

I know it does not happen over night but lets get serious.

Winning is what matters.

PS we are all too nice as supporters as well we except losses to easily.

I agree with this. It's been a hallmark of our club for decades. We get bullied too easily, tossed around, noses rubbed in the dirt etc and have only ever had a sprinkling of playing personnel willing to stand up to it (Grinter, Whelan, Moloney etc).

It's not good enough. The Hawthorns and the Essendons expect this from every one of their players - even their 'stars' - and they just don't seem to draft young kids without a bit of sh!z in them.

Youtube a clip of the 'line in the sand' game between those two clubs a few years back and you'll what it means to really fly the flag for your club. I hope our boys are going to be prepared to get that down and dirty because in addition to developing sublime skills and matchday strategies, that's a major part of what it's going to take to win a flag.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Robbief I am really worried I think you are a body snatcher!

You keep writing my lines before I get a chance.

Go buddy you are spot on.

Its a pity us older guys with memories longer than 15 years get in the road!

The last thing any of us want to do is turn this in to and Oldie V Youngie battle but it really annoys me when I see some of the condescending and insulting posts that I've seen on here.

We may be old but that doesn't mean we're stupid and we've seen quite a few generations of Melbourne teams and we've also seen the common thread that permeates through the years. Perhaps the young ones on here now that are so dismissive of us will find themselves in the same situation a few years from now; I hope not.

Edited March 13, 2011 by RobbieF

[Clanger King 9]

I'm 26 and I love the last few replies. Spot on. We as supporters can't be happy with sub par performances anymore. I want a young kid to run through that "brick wall" if things aren't going well if they get hurt they get hurt but it might show the older blokes what's going to be expected of them next time it's there turn to go

Edited March 14, 2011 by Clanger King

[rpfc 28,768]

You say that as though no one in the last 46 years did a good job.

It's the opposite, and that's the problem.

The last two decades are littered with Melbourne doing a good job, but not a great one.

In the age of the draft - if you want the ultimate success - you have to build from the draft. But it takes longer than just getting a 'good' team out there and competing with mid-range sides but not having enough talent to beat the best.

Everyone kept on saying, whinging even, during the '00s that 'we don't have any star players!' and 'we can't win a flag without them!'

Now we went about getting them, by clearing house and 'bottoming out,' and we have these POTENTIAL stars of the game in Morton, Grimes, Jurrah, Watts, Scully, and Trengove to be in the company of are only star - Frawley.

But the oldest is 22!

It's going to take time.

And OD and RF - I can understand that you have seen more of the (promising but failed) ups and (severe) downs. But you should understand that it has no relevance to what is happening now other than in your own psyche.

Our mongrel is there, but having a desire to win doesn't change the reality of our list.

It isn't there yet, and no amount rahrah about 'running out of excuses' is going to get it there.

[Rogue 585]

I get that some people are sick of being told about rebuilds and so forth, but all you need to do is look at our list demographic and realise our form trend is still heading upwards.

I know I've mentioned it multiple times, but just take a look at who we're going to lose to 'attrition' in the next few years. We don't have many older players, and Green is the type that could play until he is quite old [in footy terms]. On the flip side, most of our better players have plenty of age/experience-related development to come.

Most teams are battling a rapidly closing window, based on losing key players to retirement, but we won't have that problem for quite a while (and even then, we won't be losing too much).

[Pipefitter 2,168]

Totally agree. We really are still a while off where we want to be. I think we will see a similar amount of wins as last year which some supporters will label a failure. I think alot of people underestimate how much of a loss McDonald and Bruce are.

[Harrisonrules 273]

The waiting game truly sucks, and I am right with all of you who want some success now. But a part of me actually does buy into the rebuild this time around. So for ONE more season, I will watch the club and coach put games into kids for the betterment of the club.

I have several friends who are all older than even your dad.

Don't be rash about ONE more year. Be passionate, but leave some gas in the tank. You might change your opinion at the end of the year

[Footynut 302]

The last thing any of us want to do is turn this in to and Oldie V Youngie battle but it really annoys me when I see some of the condescending and insulting posts that I've seen on here.

We may be old but that doesn't mean we're stupid and we've seen quite a few generations of Melbourne teams and we've also seen the common thread that permeates through the years. Perhaps the young ones on here now that are so dismissive of us will find themselves in the same situation a few years from now; I hope not.

I dont think you are the angel you make out......

you have led the condescending and insults yourself, one thing you are brilliant at is the passive aggressive.

the last thing the club needs is unrealistic expectations...i bet if we lose the first game to the swans you will be on here telling us all Bailey has to go etc etc...

we have certainly heard all that before haven't we!

The kids will give us as much mongrel as they can but to a point...as they grow physically they will begin to run out games better and impose themselves physically on the contest.

I totally agree with OP....your statements are not relevant when linking the past failures to today's club and team. (Please read that doesn't mean you are irrelevant, nor is your opinion nor is what we have done as a club in the past)

To your point if things are going to really change we need to create our own history....we have never gone about it the way we are now being totally aligned...we ARE doing things differently than ever before and that will eventually lead to different results...

Its frustrating for ALL of us when we lose any match...but putting down others by saying they accept mediocrity when in fact thats not true is inflamatory and not what the club needs....

Take a deep breath the ride is on the way up but there are going to be more times of terrible despair and frustration....thats reality.....

GO DEES!!

[Fork 'em 6,991]

Nasher I see one "variable" that has not changed.

It is "Mongrel" we still have no players that suggest to me that they would run through a brick wall to get the ball.

No Nasty types who just want to win at all costs!

Even our coach looks like a nice guy. When was the last time he looked like it really hurt when we lost.

No Mick Multhouse stares from Him.

I know it does not happen over night but lets get serious.

Winning is what matters.

PS we are all too nice as supporters as well we except losses to easily.

Exactly , we've been physically beaten up in big games every time we've shown abit of dash for the last 25years .

We've had the skill but not the mongrels that refuse to lie down in the face of physical onslaught or provide physical pressure of our own.

Though I never saw Barassi play , I've been reading his autobiography over the last couple of days .

The man was White Line Fever personofied from the moment he ran out in red & blue , it wasn't something he developed with maturity , it was in his DNA . If it wasn't for his shear force of will and absolute hatred of losing I doubt that we would've been half as successful during the 50's .

I remember Neitz speaking on the dias after losing to Essendon in 2000 . Said he "hoped" we'd be able to make it back some day for another opportunity . As far as I was concerned he was the captain of a young side and should of declared that we WILL be back to make amends ... But no , too nice and guess what , we never got near it again . In a recent article with Watts the question was put to him if losing bothered him , "Nah , not really." was his benign reply . Although some said that it showed how level headed he was , No Jack , that attitude ain't gonna get us another flag .

I know unearthing another Barassi is unlikely but we need need to find few more smash through brick wall , win at all cost types on our list or again dispite all our hopes this rebuild is doomed to fail also .

Edited March 14, 2011 by Fork 'em

[Keyser Söze 0]

Did McKenzie, Moloney, Sylvia, Jones, Frawley... et al get delisted when I wasn't paying attention?

Cos I'm pretty sure those blokes would "run through a brick wall to get the ball."

Some really thoughtless comments on this entire forum lately.

Pull your collective heads in.

[Fork 'em 6,991]

Pull your collective heads in.

Starting with you pal.

Frawley aside , if you think those fellas will stack up against blokes like Hodge , Voss , Ricciuto etc. you need your head read , Sylvia has the tools , not the mindset , Mackenzie might have the mindset but not the tools .

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I dont think you are the angel you make out......

you have led the condescending and insults yourself, one thing you are brilliant at is the passive aggressive.

the last thing the club needs is unrealistic expectations...i bet if we lose the first game to the swans you will be on here telling us all Bailey has to go etc etc...

we have certainly heard all that before haven't we!

The kids will give us as much mongrel as they can but to a point...as they grow physically they will begin to run out games better and impose themselves physically on the contest.

I totally agree with OP....your statements are not relevant when linking the past failures to today's club and team. (Please read that doesn't mean you are irrelevant, nor is your opinion nor is what we have done as a club in the past)

To your point if things are going to really change we need to create our own history....we have never gone about it the way we are now being totally aligned...we ARE doing things differently than ever before and that will eventually lead to different results...

Its frustrating for ALL of us when we lose any match...but putting down others by saying they accept mediocrity when in fact thats not true is inflamatory and not what the club needs....

Take a deep breath the ride is on the way up but there are going to be more times of terrible despair and frustration....thats reality.....

GO DEES!!

I never pretended to be an Angel I know I can be quite obnoxious at times but I doubt I started the insults here in this instance. I've actually tried very hard to be even tempered since I started posting on Land. Anyway to the point at hand, if we lose the first game I won't be calling for Bailey's head because I expect to lose it so it won't come as a shock.

I understand that we've built a new team and I understand that things take time, I just have a worry in my gut that we have recruited the wrong types again. I hope I'm proven wrong and that in two years or less we are holding the cup aloft, I just have a concern we won't.

[bush demon 2,062]

How many cycles do you reckon we've gone through without winning a flag? Why are some clubs able to continually play finals and win flags, like Hawthorn and say Essendon over the last 30 years, and we can't get a sniff?

Our history since the 1964 flag has been one of failure upon failure and unfortunately the same disturbing traits appear in each rebuild we do.

Here are the cycles since Ron Barassi went to Carlton in 1965:

1. 1966 massive turn-over of players involving loss/retirement of key premiership players inc Bluey Adams, Ron Barassi, John Lord and Neil Crompton. We bombed out with three wins for the season. this was the year i hated most of all;

this re-build peaked about mid '67 when Norm Smith retired with heart problems.

2. 1971 Tiddles Ridley re-build. this re-build was mostly in the mindset with dees stringing win after win. collapsed mid-season when len thompson's magpies pummelled us.

3. 1976 run for the finals re-build. Bobby Skilton drove us to the cusp of a finals appearance culminating in a disastrous 1977, loss of key players to other clubs (Wells, Alves, Keenan)

4. 1981-5 return of the messiah with five year plan. some promising moments. seem to remember it all falling apart one sunny day at vfl park waverley v. the bombers in 1984.

5. 1987 re-build. we recruited a host of great players just like the big clubs did: steven stretch, todd viney, warren dean and had a fabulous five year period with heroic finals appearances, but ultimately not quite good enough or not enough self-belief to take the big prize;

6. 1994 re-build this was the david scwhartz re-build which saw us play a brilliant finals series only to be blown away in perth.

7. 1998 back to school with neil daniher and a re-built david schwartz. players attended classes on how he wanted us to play. a dramatic rise up the ladder which continued with solid performances until about 2005 inc. a grand final appearance in 2000.

8. 2008 (was it) re-build under Bailey using a host of early draft picks, still work in progress.

Edited March 14, 2011 by bush demon

[rpfc 28,768]

I never pretended to be an Angel I know I can be quite obnoxious at times but I doubt I started the insults here in this instance. I've actually tried very hard to be even tempered since I started posting on Land. Anyway to the point at hand, if we lose the first game I won't be calling for Bailey's head because I expect to lose it so it won't come as a shock.

Well, here is a turn up - I, the 'soft, constant excuse maker' expexts to win Rd.1...

I understand that we've built a new team and I understand that things take time, I just have a worry in my gut that we have recruited the wrong types again.

Who are the wrong types?

How many games do you give them before you write them off? (and calling them the 'wrong' types is tantamount)

Was Garland in 2008 the wrong type? Was Jamar in pre-2008 the wrong type? Was Sylvia pre-2009 the wrong type?

Is it an innate desire for the contest? Is a 23 year old more or less predisposed to show it than a 19 year old?

I hope I'm proven wrong and that in two years or less we are holding the cup aloft, I just have a concern we won't.

Two years or less?!

Huh?!

So this rebuild is to be repaid by 2013?

Watts, Scully, and Trengove will be 21 with around 60 games worth of experience and you are expecting them to give you a flag?

Jeez...

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Well, here is a turn up - I, the 'soft, constant excuse maker' expexts to win Rd.1...

Who are the wrong types?

How many games do you give them before you write them off? (and calling them the 'wrong' types is tantamount)

Was Garland in 2008 the wrong type? Was Jamar in pre-2008 the wrong type? Was Sylvia pre-2009 the wrong type?

Is it an innate desire for the contest? Is a 23 year old more or less predisposed to show it than a 19 year old?

Two years or less?!

Huh?!

So this rebuild is to be repaid by 2013?

Watts, Scully, and Trengove will be 21 with around 60 games worth of experience and you are expecting them to give you a flag?

Jeez...

I actually rate Sydney and think they will be a good side this year, they have some pretty good talent and some experience to back it up.

I thought Garland was ok and said so when others were giving him heaps. I said after one game where everyone wanted him delisted that I thought he showed a bit in that game and he has since won a number of fans.

Sylvia has always had the ability he just didn't use it to best advantage. Jamar was one I thought was a spud but I got on board after he had a few very good games in 2009 and said he was going to be good for us. I even went in to bat for him when most were suggesting he should be traded. Look it up.

As for whether a player has it or not you can usually tell fairly quickly, not always but usually. They show you something and you can generally see that they have or have not got it.

The year 2013 was just a figure of speech I've followed this club all my life and I've like a lot of the oldies on here will do so till the day I die whether they win a flag or not it's just that one in a couple of years would be good.

I assume you were just being a smart ass there?

[Range Rover 1,935]

6. 1994 re-build this was the david scwhartz re-build which saw us play a brilliant finals series only to be blown away in perth.

This one really, really hurt. We sent such a formidable team to Perth with a really potent forward line (Lyon, Schwarz, Charles, Pike) but we could never get out of second gear all day. And the umpiring! If you think it's bad now .... back then in Perth all the WACA crowd had to do was yell and the whistle was straight to the umpire's lips. We never got a look in all day.

Ahh the frustration! Reckon we could have blown the Cats away with that side on the G the following week.

[rpfc 28,768]

I actually rate Sydney and think they will be a good side this year, they have some pretty good talent and some experience to back it up.

I thought Garland was ok and said so when others were giving him heaps. I said after one game where everyone wanted him delisted that I thought he showed a bit in that game and he has since won a number of fans.

Sylvia has always had the ability he just didn't use it to best advantage. Jamar was one I thought was a spud but I got on board after he had a few very good games in 2009 and said he was going to be good for us. I even went in to bat for him when most were suggesting he should be traded. Look it up.

As for whether a player has it or not you can usually tell fairly quickly, not always but usually. They show you something and you can generally see that they have or have not got it.

The year 2013 was just a figure of speech I've followed this club all my life and I've like a lot of the oldies on here will do so till the day I die whether they win a flag or not it's just that one in a couple of years would be good.

I assume you were just being a smart ass there?

Smart arse.

And no.

You may have unthinkingly given 'two years' but it has become an expectation of many here to see these kids do what they cannot yet do, and won't be able for some years.

Look at the time it took Garland, Sylvia, and Jamar to fulfil the potential that you saw in them.

Why not have that same patience that you had with those players for the Bailey tenure and for the young players that have arrived under his tenure?

[Footynut 302]

Smart arse.

And no.

You may have unthinkingly given 'two years' but it has become an expectation of many here to see these kids do what they cannot yet do, and won't be able for some years.

Look at the time it took Garland, Sylvia, and Jamar to fulfil the potential that you saw in them.

Why not have that same patience that you had with those players for the Bailey tenure and for the young players that have arrived under his tenure?

here, here couldnt agree more...

[jayceebee31 761]

No it is not to much to ask robbief, exactly how I feel!!!!

And Nasher don't patronise us older supporters with your superior "young new football world" Jargon.

Football success has always gone in cycles.

Trouble is for the MFC we are so far in a 46 year cycle.

So in your view where are we in the current "modern era Cycle" ?

GOOD ON YA MATE.

[rpfc 28,768]

Another Massive Bump.

Looking back at this I can see some worth in what OD and RF say about our culture - namely it's shizen.

But I stand by the OP - our senior players weren't ready for 2011...

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Another Massive Bump.

Looking back at this I can see some worth in what OD and RF say about our culture - namely it's shizen.

But I stand by the OP - our senior players weren't ready for 2011...

Not Ready?

Some of them took a massive leap backwards this year and there are some that are now irretrievable.

We need a hard coach who will weed out the bad seeds in the team and shelter them from the bad seeds in the administration; appreciate the bump by the way.

[dees64 104]

The word is uncompromising!

Look at the our captain Green vs all the top teams Judd etc, these players always continue to work hard regardless of the score!

Green has been a good player but always goes missing! Players like Judd even when losing continue to work hard

Look at how the players,coach carried on after beating Essendon??

I just think there is too much back slapping after 1 win & our players get comfortable

The teams that win flags play with same hard intensity week in week out & any passengers are dropped

[dee-luded 2,959]

Davey, Moloney, MacDonald, Jones, Bate, Dunn, Jamar, Rivers, and Batram are the only players in the 'prime' of their footballing careers (23+ year old players with over 70 games worth of experience as a rough rule - would love people to take issue with it)

Green is extending his prime as very good players do.

But with this we see why we had our rebuild.

Davey, Jamar, and Green are our established stars out there (Frawley becoming AA in his 4th year is a seductive phenomenon, but nowhere near the norm).

The other 6 have their moments but haven't put it together long enough to be considered with the previous 4. Some of those 6 players simply won't make it much further.

The rest are kids.

And here we have the issue - good sides, not flag-winning sides, but good, solid sides that are consistent and at their most professional have a better class of established, experienced players than we do.

Thankfully, Bailey and Co. knew this would be the case and made the foundation for flag in a youth that hasn't seen the experience necessary to push for that flag.

I expect us to improve in some areas this year but still have a focus on getting our talented youth out there at the expense of results.

Because we don't give a frack about finishing 8th and bombing out in the first week, we want to build for something bigger down the track.

Spot on, but we also need to breed in some mongrel, that our leaders are lacking in. Thats why some have to go.

My preference would be to trade one 28 year old for an elite 17 Yr old or a Boak type. We need more quality brought in in this age bracket 23/24 Years.

And one or two 24 yr olds need too go. Out of Bartram/ Bater/ Jones / Dunn/ Newton... Bater probably & Newton. Jones is a big keeper for mine obviously, as is Bartram for at least one or two. Dunny is on thin Ice next year.

[rpfc 28,768]

Not Ready?

It was a playful understatement...