In other words he cant fulfill that role. And if the FD were chasing Hale then they must be thinking likewise.

Right. No one on our list can fulfil that role well. Hence we went after Hale.

But now that we've missed out on Hale, and assuming we don't end up with someone else from another club, we have to make do with what we've got on our own list. And assuming that going after Hale means that the FD wants someone to play FF/second ruck, it has to be either PJ or Martin. Don't you agree?

Wrong.

How could Martin's ruckwork be worse than PJs???

The point of that comment was to say that neither is that good in the ruck. Comparing the two is like comparing Isaac Weetra with Jace Bode. Sure, one of them is going to be classed 'better', but neither are actually 'good'. Or 'passable'.

In other words, the dilemma still remains.

Very irresponsible imo.

Sylvia or Dunn in the ruck is plainly irresponsible, they will be seriously hurt if forced to ruck regularly.

Spenser, Fitzpatrick and Gawn and clearly years away from being competitive in the ruck and it would be unfair on their development to throw them to the wolves. Why do you think the Suns picked up Fraser, a complete spud ruckman? For one reason only. It would be completely irresponsible for them to throw an 18 year old up full time against 100kg mature ruckman. I don't think our FD would agree with your line of thinking.

If Jamar went down, PJ would be our only realistic option, and our only hope is that he can play reasonably competitively like he showed in 2-3 games this year.

Sylvia and Dunn have pitch hit their to give Jamar a breather. No one is suggesting they ruck regularly

Spencer has actually played AFL football and will clear need further exposure to improvement? GC picked up Fraser because they dont have a ruck at all. . Just the record Spencer will be 21 years when the season starts next year and has had 3 seasons on the rookie list and his mum said its alright to take him out of the cotton wool.

If Jamar went down, PJ is not an option at all. Hey wait PJ is big! But he cant ruck and is a poor mark and plays one foot shorter and 20 kgs lighter than he is. I have seen 68 games of PJ and his passport is stamped IMO.

And assuming that going after Hale means that the FD wants someone to play FF/second ruck, it has to be either PJ or Martin. Don't you agree?

Its gotta be Martin and not PJ. We know what we get and its not good enough.

The point of that comment was to say that neither is that good in the ruck. Comparing the two is like comparing Isaac Weetra with Jace Bode. Sure, one of them is going to be classed 'better', but neither are actually 'good'. Or 'passable'.

In other words, the dilemma still remains.

Wrong. Your analogy is also incorrect.

PJ has been tried repeatedly and failed. Martin has had few opportunities to date. He might show us something. After six years I know what PJ can do.

GC picked up Fraser because they dont have a ruck at all.

Actually they have 2 or 3 ruckman, they just decided it was irresponsible to expose them to full time duties before they are ready.

Hopefully Jamar is able to play out an entire season again next year and we won't have to worry about playing PJ or Spenser as number 1 ruck

Very irresponsible imo.

Sylvia or Dunn in the ruck is plainly irresponsible, they will be seriously hurt if forced to ruck regularly.

Spenser, Fitzpatrick and Gawn and clearly years away from being competitive in the ruck and it would be unfair on their development to throw them to the wolves. Why do you think the Suns picked up Fraser, a complete spud ruckman? For one reason only. It would be completely irresponsible for them to throw an 18 year old up full time against 100kg mature ruckman. I don't think our FD would agree with your line of thinking.

If Jamar went down, PJ would be our only realistic option, and our only hope is that he can play reasonably competitively like he showed in 2-3 games this year.

SORRY.... WHY IS FITZPATRICK OBVIOUSLY YEARS AWAY?

SORRY.... WHY IS FITZPATRICK OBVIOUSLY YEARS AWAY?

BECAUSE HE IS A KID.

Jamar took till he was 26. At best Gawn or Fitz will be worthy members of the 22 in 5 years.

It is IMO that PJ will be delisted and put back on the Rookie list ifnot picked up.He will replace Meeson. Newton will stay a rookie.

I would be very surprised if PJ wasn't part of the next batch of delisted players

IMO he is like so many players who play at a level above what their ability allows

There were plenty on here that thought Jamar was a spud until this year in fact there were heaps on here wanting him to be traded at this time last year. IIRC i pointed out that if we did we would have no one to play in the ruck.

PJ has show he can actually ruck and I reckon if given a chance he might prove some on here wrong. I understand that he has been given the opportunity before but so was Jamar, I led the charge in calling for him to be delisted up until 2009 when he started to show that he was actually quite good.

He was also one that played 20 kilos lighter than he was and regularly got pushed aside by smaller players.

There were plenty on here that thought Jamar was a spud until this year in fact there were heaps on here wanting him to be traded at this time last year. IIRC i pointed out that if we did we would have no one to play in the ruck.

PJ has show he can actually ruck and I reckon if given a chance he might prove some on here wrong. I understand that he has been given the opportunity before but so was Jamar, I led the charge in calling for him to be delisted up until 2009 when he started to show that he was actually quite good.

He was also one that played 20 kilos lighter than he was and regularly got pushed aside by smaller players.

I couldn't disagree more.

It might be forced upon us having PJ a regular, but our own FD has given up on him evidently (in about July) and I have too (in fact a couple years ago).

The man cannot ruck, mark overhead and he thinks he is 2 feet and 20 kilos lighter than he is, and you can't get over that.

Jamar never had that issue.

Edited October 8, 201014 yr by rpfc

I have always been amazed at those posters who have said that if Jamar could come on as a player then so could PJ when the issues that undermine PJ as a ruckman are fundamental core issues that were not the things that held Jamar back.

There were plenty on here that thought Jamar was a spud until this year in fact there were heaps on here wanting him to be traded at this time last year. IIRC i pointed out that if we did we would have no one to play in the ruck.

There were some who considered using Jamar as trade bait last year, but the majority of supporters had Jamar as our No 1 ruckman for 2010, and based on just 7 games in 2009. We could see the potential in the big Russian. We could also see a bare cupboard of talls at MFC.

I couldn't disagree more.

It might be forced upon us having PJ a regular, but our own FD has given up on him evidently (in about July) and I have too (in fact a couple years ago).

The man cannot ruck, mark overhead and he thinks he is 2 feet and 20 kilos lighter than he is, and you can't get over that.

Jamar never had that issue.

Ever hear the term donuts? That's what they used to call Jamar and it was relative to the number of possessions he used to get in a match.

Some people have short memories, either that or they never saw him play prior to 2009. I have seen him out bodied by small defenders and pushed aside in marking contests by much lighter players, get a couple of old videos of some of his games in the period up to 2008 and have a look for yourself. He hasn't always been as aggressive as he is now and he hasn't always been aware of just how big he is or how to use his weight.

I'm not suggesting that PJ is going to be an overnight sensation and arise from the mist all I'm saying is that he is our best option at this stage and I believe no worse that Hale. But hey what the hell, that's just my opinion.

Let me just add I was against getting Byron and argued strongly that we should have recruited Michael Gardiner, I reckon I got that right.

He hasn't always been as aggressive as he is now and he hasn't always been aware of just how big he is or how to use his weight.

He has, and he has.

If he didn't and didn't, the club would not have persevered with him for so long. Until 2009-2010, being aggressive in contests was Jamar's only trick. He showed nothing else.

If you want to draw a parallel with Jamar, then Jake Spencer is the guy to expect to come on, not PJ IMO.

Injury stumped Jamar's progress a few years ago. He looked quite promising when he first came on to the scene.

I have always been amazed at those posters who have said that if Jamar could come on as a player then so could PJ when the issues that undermine PJ as a ruckman are fundamental core issues that were not the things that held Jamar back.

And pray tell just what are they?

The Russian has now learned how to use his strength and his height and his fitness has improved but that has not always been the case. PJ has shown some good form at times but has always suffered an injury when he started to look like he was coming on.

He has, and he has.

If he didn't and didn't, the club would not have persevered with him for so long. Until 2009-2010, being aggressive in contests was Jamar's only trick. He showed nothing else.

If you want to draw a parallel with Jamar, then Jake Spencer is the guy to expect to come on, not PJ IMO.

I've seen a lot of his games over the years and I totally disagree with you, but you're entitled to your opinion and your view.

Injury stumped Jamar's progress a few years ago. He looked quite promising when he first came on to the scene.

Yeah injury is the big concern here. If Jamar gets injured we're in trouble. And rucks seem to get injured more than others.

That's blatantly wrong, Robbie.

Jamar was always a very strong mark and was a good tap ruckman. He did the 'big man' things very well, but his problem was that he didn't work hard enough.

Johnson is a hard worker and is able to get the ball out wide. He has very good 'small man' skills but the problem is that he can't do the 'big man' things like marking and ruck work.

Jamar improved his work rate through maturity, but he already had the prerequisite skills to be a good AFL ruckman. Johnson needs to suddenly learn how to mark and ruck, which would improve as he gets bigger and stronger. Unfortunately Johnson is as big and strong as he's going to get, so any improvement he can make in his game is marginal (at best).

JUst an observation, PJ had no pre-season this year, he was obviously underdone all year, maybe....just maybe a full pre-season will lift him above the very ordinary??

but you're entitled to your opinion and your view.

Well as long as I have your blessing for having my opinion and view I guess all is okay!

Well as long as I have your blessing for having my opinion and view I guess all is okay!

I never said you had my blessing, I merely said you are entitled to your opinion.

That's blatantly wrong, Robbie.

Jamar was always a very strong mark and was a good tap ruckman. He did the 'big man' things very well, but his problem was that he didn't work hard enough.

Johnson is a hard worker and is able to get the ball out wide. He has very good 'small man' skills but the problem is that he can't do the 'big man' things like marking and ruck work.

Jamar improved his work rate through maturity, but he already had the prerequisite skills to be a good AFL ruckman. Johnson needs to suddenly learn how to mark and ruck, which would improve as he gets bigger and stronger. Unfortunately Johnson is as big and strong as he's going to get, so any improvement he can make in his game is marginal (at best).

Perhaps you are confusing his VFL form with his AFL form. I always thought he fell away at centre bounces and allowed the opposition ruckman to use him to gain the ascendency and the tap out. If you care to look at some video of his games you will clearly see he was easily out bodied by smaller players. Jamar averages 2.4 marks a game not real earth shattering and these figures have been improved by his last two years, the marking of Mark is somewhat of a myth before this last year.

I'm not here to rubbish him, he has been fantastic over the last two years, all I'm saying is that PJ is the best option for his support at this point in time. If others disagree with that, then so be it.

I never said you had my blessing, I merely said you are entitled to your opinion.

Well thanks for the reminder. I may have forgotten otherwise.

Well thanks for the reminder. I may have forgotten otherwise.

Anytime.

That's blatantly wrong, Robbie.

Jamar was always a very strong mark and was a good tap ruckman. He did the 'big man' things very well, but his problem was that he didn't work hard enough.

Johnson is a hard worker and is able to get the ball out wide. He has very good 'small man' skills but the problem is that he can't do the 'big man' things like marking and ruck work.

Jamar improved his work rate through maturity, but he already had the prerequisite skills to be a good AFL ruckman. Johnson needs to suddenly learn how to mark and ruck, which would improve as he gets bigger and stronger. Unfortunately Johnson is as big and strong as he's going to get, so any improvement he can make in his game is marginal (at best).

Absolutely spot on Bob. Two different types of players.