Reality Check

[Nasher 33,607]

I think the idea that Green goes to water when we're struggling is incorrect. I wish I could say the same about some of the other names rpfc reeled off.

I agree - harsh on Green IMO. Don't know about Jamar either, he's been playing the role of Atlas this year carrying the team.

Moloney, Davey and Rivers are probably our three biggest worries as 'leaders' when the wheels fall off.

Thank heavens for James McDonald.

[H_T 3,043]

Run your guts out.

Don't sit back and direct where others should run.

Get to the bottom off the pack.

Don't wait forward of a pack pleading for the pill.

Good observations.

[titan_uranus 24,975]

Green has played consistently well this season.

That does not make him a good onfield leader, nor does it give him an exception for what happened on Saturday.

Leadership isn't playing well when 15 of your teammates are playing well.

Leadership is driving those 15 players to play better when they are flat.

Parking yourself off the half back flank and picking up cheapies isn't what Macca does.

Run your guts out.

Don't sit back and direct where others should run.

Get to the bottom off the pack.

Don't wait forward of a pack pleading for the pill.

Take the tackle and give it properly to a teammate.

Don't indiscriminately handball or kick just to avoid contact.

And whoever mentioned Sylvia is kidding themselves - the bloke can barely lead himself let alone anyone else.

The post is correct, but to apply that to Green is wrong. He give his all, and you seem to be one of the few (if only) people who think otherwise.

Like I said though, the points you raise are valid.

Please, try looking at West Coast's preparation for the game, and the fact they forced us wide time and again, and took control of the centre corridor, next time. The fact that their midfield were superior on the day because of their relentless pressure and tackling, the fact they had hit up experienced forwards in Kennedy, Le Cras and Lynch who have been around a while, thanks to pressuring and creating Melbourne turnovers.

Just like North did. We need to adapt to situations where this happens.

Moloney, Davey and Rivers are probably our three biggest worries as 'leaders' when the wheels fall off.

Would have thought Bruce would rate a mention in the top 3, but the point's obviously clear.

[rpfc 28,263]

Green is courageous, plays consistently well, and is an important player.

That does not make him a good leader of men.

He does not get a pass, and I'm staggered that we are letting a 29 year old off the hook so easily.

No wonder we have such poor leadership, we only ask so much of them, and we're satisfied.

[titan_uranus 24,975]

Green is courageous, plays consistently well, and is an important player.

That does not make him a good leader of men.

He does not get a pass, and I'm staggered that we are letting a 29 year old off the hook so easily.

No wonder we have such poor leadership, we only ask so much of them, and we're satisfied.

Oh please, you seem to be the only one who doesn't rate Green as a leader. And have a look at the other responses: clearly you're not the only one who doesn't think certain senior players are lacking in leadership.

[rpfc 28,263]

Oh please, you seem to be the only one who doesn't rate Green as a leader. And have a look at the other responses: clearly you're not the only one who doesn't think certain senior players are lacking in leadership.

You tell me how he leads - what you see him do.

[Rogue 585]

You tell me how he leads - what you see him do.

He played around half-back a fair bit over the last couple of years and the courageous marks that see Grimes get plenty of positive attention were a feature of his game. He'd still be taking them when we were 10 goals down, which I think exhibits some sort of 'do as I do' on-field leadership.

[Keyser Söze 0]

I agree with rpfc about Green and this has been a point of contention for me for some time.

Why supporters insist on rating players as good leaders purely because they show courage on-field is beyond me.

There is a hell of a lot more to leadership than that one aspect and to suggest otherwise shows a clear lack of understanding of the concept.

[Inner Demon 1]

Would a sign of someone being a good leader at an AFL club be that their teammates vote for them as leaders in an open forum??

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

OK? I thought he was shocking! Yes a couple of marks but otherwise he was just a space filler on the ground!

Wasn't he supposed to be super quick! He was lead footed and quite at sea for most of the day!

I saw a guy who was bigger and more imposing than last year who won contested marks and several half volleys in traffic. He looked confident and classy in his disposal - whats not to like about that for a guy in his second game?

Isnt interesting how we can have different perspectives on the same player and game?

I would consider what some other clubs have done or are doing in terms of developing key forward talent. Geelong and Hawkins - he hasnt set the world on fire but the Cats are persisting. Essendon and Gumbleton - steady progress. Adelaide and Tippett - good year last year - poor this year. Carlton and Setanta O'Hailpin seem to have struck some gold there. I am sure Melbourne will perservere with JW after a promising start and it may be a season before we see him demonstrate his potential.

Can I suggest too that if the mid field is giving you rubbish service you wont look that good in the forward line and forwards and midfielders need to develop some understandings some trust even before they work effectively together. That requires game time practice.

[Rogue 585]

I agree with rpfc about Green and this has been a point of contention for me for some time.

Why supporters insist on rating players as good leaders purely because they show courage on-field is beyond me.

There is a hell of a lot more to leadership than that one aspect and to suggest otherwise shows a clear lack of understanding of the concept.

Ahm, you know rpfc was talking about on-field leadership, right?

Leading by example - things like courage and work-rate - is one of the main leadership indicators on-field.

I think The other would be the type of 'coaching/directing' during play.

[Hobbits's 17]

Would a sign of someone being a good leader at an AFL club be that their teammates vote for them as leaders in an open forum??

Definite sign. SOmeone to look up to for guidance. J.McDonald is that man at present.

[Inner Demon 1]

The whole leadership group is nominated that way.

Brad Green is in the leadership group.

If that isn't definitive proof that he is a leader around the club then I fail to see what further insight anybody else could offer as to who is a leader amongst the group.

[titan_uranus 24,975]

You tell me how he leads - what you see him do.

I see courageous acts every game. Don't tell me that's not a part of leadership. Putting your body on the line sets an example, sends a message to the opponent. He can be relied upon, just like JMac, to do what's required when it's required.

I cannot recall a game in which he's ever shown depressing body language. He doesn't shrug shoulders, he doesn't get all mopey.

And unlike others, he plays well even when we're behind. He can be relied upon for consistent contributions.

Those are all signs of leadership in my book.

Ahm, you know rpfc was talking about on-field leadership, right?

Leading by example - things like courage and work-rate - is one of the main leadership indicators on-field.

I think The other would be the type of 'coaching/directing' during play.

Agree with that.

The whole leadership group is nominated that way.

Brad Green is in the leadership group.

If that isn't definitive proof that he is a leader around the club then I fail to see what further insight anybody else could offer as to who is a leader amongst the group.

Agree with that too.

[H_T 3,043]

And unlike others, he plays well even when we're behind. He can be relied upon for consistent contributions.

Those are all signs of leadership in my book.

They are signs of leadership. You're right in that regard.

I disagree upon your comment "relied upon for consistent contributions" in respect to Brad Green.

Maybe I'm being a tad picky in that I compare leadership to some of the good leaders in the comp. Sure they have the odd bad day, but they are far more consistent in leading by example time and time again. I shouldn't digress. Because we speak of the Mfc. That said, Green is one of the stand out leaders of what we have available, although McDonald is miles ahead in being a leader of men.

It just probably highlights our lack of leadership within the club. Therefore, I agree with rpfc's point in that whilst Green plays consistently well (on occassions), I don't think he is a great leader of men.

The fact most here are willing one of Grimes, Watts, Frawley, Scully or Trengove to "pull one of their collectives out" (as quoted by rpfc, but hasn't had much air play here) and lead one day soon, somewhat lends weight to this point.

[rpfc 28,263]

Green has developed into the second most courageous player on our list behind Rivers but that isn't leadership in and of itself.

I love Brad Green the player but I want him to plead to his teammates to play on and run from half back trying to get a handball he may not receive, I don't like the way he will situate himself across half back when we are in trouble and look at getting cheap kicks. Let the kids do that easy task, I want him to run and guide his teammates through his actions rather than a flailing arm that tells his lesser experienced teammates where to chase his kicks.

You chase, you run, you do what you're asking others to do and you'll be a leader my son.

Watch Macca get a cheapie and then gut bust for 80m to provide an option for a teammate without options because others have seized up. It's inspiring, or at least it should be.

[Longsufferingnomore 1,631]

I see courageous acts every game. Don't tell me that's not a part of leadership. Putting your body on the line sets an example, sends a message to the opponent. He can be relied upon, just like JMac, to do what's required when it's required.

I cannot recall a game in which he's ever shown depressing body language. He doesn't shrug shoulders, he doesn't get all mopey.

And unlike others, he plays well even when we're behind. He can be relied upon for consistent contributions.

Those are all signs of leadership in my book.

Agree with that.

Agree with that too.

What about the way Greeny gets the boys together sometimes and "talks" to them. He wouldn't be in the leadership group unless the Club and the players believed that he was a leader in the truest sense of the word.

[MrReims 313]

Green plays consistently well (on occassions)

hmmmmmmm

[titan_uranus 24,975]

Green plays consistently well (on occassions)

Huh?

Green has developed into the second most courageous player on our list behind Rivers but that isn't leadership in and of itself.

Rubbish. James McDonald is the most courageous player on our list.

[H_T 3,043]

hmmmmmmm

Huh?

Interpretation: I think he sometimes goes missing in games; not entirely consistent is my contention. But hey, one of the more consistent players on our list, don't get me wrong. I'm a hard marker. B)

[rpfc 28,263]

Rubbish. James McDonald is the most courageous player on our list.

Rivers has always had, and Green has developed, a willingness to disregard their own safety in contests. And I realise that Macca also is courageous.

Ugh.

Why are we stuck on courage here?

That does not encapsulate leadership.

I still maintain Macca is our only first rate leader. And I still maintain our dearth of leaders is affecting our onfield performance, and will, regrettably, effect the development of our young talent.

Maybe they can lead themselves from next year?

A leadership group where no-one older than 26 and a majority younger than 23?

[titan_uranus 24,975]

Rivers has always had, and Green has developed, a willingness to disregard their own safety in contests. And I realise that Macca also is courageous.

Ugh.

Why are we stuck on courage here?

That does not encapsulate leadership.

I still maintain Macca is our only first rate leader. And I still maintain our dearth of leaders is affecting our onfield performance, and will, regrettably, effect the development of our young talent.

Maybe they can lead themselves from next year?

A leadership group where no-one older than 26 and a majority younger than 23?

I haven't disagreed with you at all that courage is not the only measure of leadership, or that it is even a part of leadership. I merely offered the point of view that Green does more than you giv him credit for.

And I also agree that our dearth of true leadership will hurt us until we find a way to fix it. And that may well be moving to a new, younger leadership group, with players like Grimes, Watts, Scully and Trengove (Grimes aside, that would be a few years down the track though).

[Keyser Söze 0]

Rivers has always had, and Green has developed, a willingness to disregard their own safety in contests. And I realise that Macca also is courageous.

Ugh.

Why are we stuck on courage here?

That does not encapsulate leadership.

I still maintain Macca is our only first rate leader. And I still maintain our dearth of leaders is affecting our onfield performance, and will, regrettably, effect the development of our young talent.

Maybe they can lead themselves from next year?

A leadership group where no-one older than 26 and a majority younger than 23?

THIS.

How about motivation? Communication? Organization? Inspiration?

How about leading by example, but not in terms of courageous efforts?

How about showing the other boys they need to work SMARTER rather than just HARDER?

Green does a lot of things well, but I'm still not convinced in him as a leader.

In fact, very few of our players have me convinced in this respect.

I concede that in the end I am not the one they must convince.

However I do not accept the argument that the players have voted him into the leadership group and therefore he must be a good one.

On a list bereft of decent senior leadership (bar junior) I don't see that as a ringing endorsement.

[Keyser Söze 0]

Would a sign of someone being a good leader at an AFL club be that their teammates vote for them as leaders in an open forum??

Not necessarily - covered above.

[Inner Demon 1]

Not necessarily - covered above.

But who other than the players who train and play with them day in, day out could possibly know more about whether these guys are good motivators, communicators, organisers or how inspirational they are?

If these aren't the guys who feel they are being lead by example, then who could know better?

I don't understand how anybody on this forum, or anybody at all outside of the players within the Club, could possibly have any real perspective on which players are really leading day in, day out??