Anyone who thinks the club will have trouble delisting 6 or 7 players at season's end just had their eyes opened.

I'm no fan of Jamar- but I think he has improved. Still he's our best ruckman so he stays.

Sadly, I think Wheels is finished - and Robbo has probably done his dash. Junior is a good influence around the club - but he was in decline last year - and has fallen further. I think one year as captain will see him out. They won't get rid of Bruce

So three more to go..

Belly needs to do more to save his place. Then who?

Of the regular senior players, Bate continues to disappoint. He must be more consistent.

Grimes, Maric and Cheney all showed something today - and Jack was as expected in his first outing.

LIam Jurrah might be next cab off the rank

Just keep playing the kids

I felt quite sad at times today (well, actually quite a lot of today) when watching Robbo, Bruce, Whelan and McDonald. Add Wheatley, though he wasn't out there today.

I love these guys, they've been at the club for the whole decade I've been a proper supporter/member, but it's just starting to feel inevitable that we will lose them, very soon. Some are fading out in that they are still doing the things we respect them for, but not often enough in any given two hours. Others seem to be still getting it and being involved, but not having any great impact.

It reminds me a lot of the emotion at the end of '07, the big farewell game for so many, at the end of an era which we all knew in our hearts was also going to be the beginning of the end for the remaining veterans.

On the other hand, hoopla we've got some good kids developing. I for one am looking forward to seeing how they go once they finish puberty!

Not up to it over several years

Bell

Johnson

Past it

Whelan

Junior

Sookey sookey la la (& bye bye)

Robbo

Offer for trade

Rivers (got Garland, Morton)

Keep until something better comes along

Jamar

Keep another year if contracted (obviously)- might develop

Newton

Dunn

Pant Pant

MacKenzie

Bell

Junior

Whelan

Robbo?

Trade bait from:

Wheatly

Dunn

Bartram

Bate

Miller

I'm torn on the rucks. PJ was shocking today. His disposal is absurdly poor. My only concern with getting rid of him would be the lack of depth we have to cover his loss.

It's as if everytime we have a terrible game, people come on here and just let their brains explode all over the place.

I suggest everyone goes and has a lie down and a stiff drink before starting new threads... particularly ones that suggest Bailey is no good, Jamar should be offloaded, Watts is crap and McLean is a pea heart.

Yes, perhaps a cooling off period. Say 72 hours??

retire/delist

Junior

bell

Newton

bruce

Trade

Dunn'

Bartram

Bate

NEAR CERTAINTIES:

McDonald - Expect to retire. Has struggled with form and injury this year.

McNamara - Speculative draft pick who hasn't made it for a senior game half way through his second year. Possibly picked up again as a rookie?

Wheatley - Simply do not see a place for him going forward. Chances for a new contract shot by injuries.

PROBABLES:

Whelan - Well documented injuries seem to have taken their toll. Doubtful he would be a meaningful contributor in 2010.

Buckley - Quick in a straight line but problems with decision making and skill. Would go before either Bate or Dunn and has been on the list as long.

Bell - See Buckley, but has been on the list even longer.

POSSIBLES:

PJ/Jamar - Either could go, but as the rest of the ruck stocks are the very unproven Meesen, and the awkward Rookie Spencer, it is likely that both will go round again at least in 2010.

Robertson - Possible but doubtful. Likely to remain in 2010 on much less money - unless the third year of his deal kicks in or he decides to quit or try his luck elsewhere.

ROOKIES:

Valenti - Don't think he'll get another shot. Too much of the same, too short and not quick enough. I know some disagree but I don't think the coaching staff do on the available evidence.

Spencer - Less chance to be promoted than seemed likely early season. Probably the nominated third year rookie as he seems worth a shot.

McKenzie - Appears the most likely to get a permanent spot. Haven't seen him but the reports have been very positive.

Healey - Has only played VFL seconds so far so is doubtful. Possibly retained if he shows something.

Zomer - Gone. Unconvincing at VFL reserves level.

Trade bait from:

Wheatly

Dunn

Bartram

Bate

Miller

What sort of fish will you catch with that bait? Who's biting for it.

I'm torn on the rucks. PJ was shocking today. His disposal is absurdly poor. My only concern with getting rid of him would be the lack of depth we have to cover his loss.

What is there to lose? He cant ruck. His disposal is poor. He is proven unaccountable and he coughs the pill up badly under pressure.

Anyone who thinks the club will have trouble delisting 6 or 7 players at season's end just had their eyes opened.

Based on the Collingwood game you could easily get rid of 21 players (except Sylvia).

The players that must be under the pump are:

Miller, Johnson, Dunn, Bell, McDonald, Robertson, Rivers, Newton, Wheatley, Bruce, Zomer, Jamar, Valenti and Whelan.

Am i the only person here who thinks we need to trade in some experience instead of trading away all our experienced players. Personally im not sure how we expect to develop all our young talented players to anywhere near there full potential.

Who does Watts have to look up to and to teach him to be a better player, Robbo? Miller? This is our main problem its no wonder Newton has not improved over the last few years. He has had no-one to guide him and to learn from.

Listening to the young Carlton #1 picks talk the other day and they all say how much they have learned and been helped along by guys like Judd, Stevens and even Scotland. Who do we have to pass on there knowledge and help players like Grimes, Morton, Dunn and Bate to reach there full potential?

Coaches can only do so much as the game style changes so quickly. It makes no sense thinking that Mcdonald, Bruce and co aren't going to be of our next Premiership so they are of no use to the club. The younger guys need older experienced guys to look up too. Watts would learn so much playing next to and trying to gain the respect from a club legend like Neitz and this is what we are lacking and all the high draft picks in the world cant change that.

What we need now is to find him a backup because Paul Johnson is a costly player. Not only do we lose the ruck contest when he's rucking, but he turns the ball over time and time again, he can't handball, makes shocking decisions, and costs us goals (2 at least today, maybe more).

Yes, PJ was crap yesterday, but it wasn't because he was losing ruck contests. He rucked very well, got 16 hitouts (Collingwoods total was 17), so obviously he was doing something right in the ruck duels. It's just his skill errors and decision making have been woeful the last 2 or 3 weeks now, and whilst i've always been a staunch supporter of his, he must be dropped.

Unfortunately for us, Spencer doesn't look anywhere near ready to step up just yet.

Both Jamar and he dominated the ruck duels completely, yet we still lost in the clearances, again. 3 weeks in a row now our rucks have done well, yet our "strong insiders", i.e. slow midfielders, never seem to reward their work.

Agree, but i thought i'd pull u up on this. Yes, PJ was crap yesterday, but it wasn't because he was losing ruck contests. He rucked very well, got 16 hitouts (Collingwoods total was 17), so obviously he was doing something right in the ruck duels. It's just his skill errors and decision making have been woeful the last 2 or 3 weeks now, and whilst i've always been a staunch supporter of his, he must be dropped.

Unfortunately for us, Spencer doesn't look anywhere near ready to step up just yet.

Both Jamar and he dominated the ruck duels completely, yet we still lost in the clearances, again. 3 weeks in a row now our rucks have done well, yet our "strong insiders", i.e. slow midfielders, never seem to reward their work.

There is more to winning the ruck contest than hitting the ball first.

What Jamar does very well, and PJ never seems to, is protect the guys at ground level, and even feed the ball out himself. Basically, he does more than just hit the ball ever which way and then running off trying to get the ball.

I know you're a big PJ fan, and I wish desperately that (lack of rucking ability aside) he could use his size and athleticism and endurance to our advantage, but he can't. There's a reason why West Coast gave up on him so early in his career, and it wasn't injuries. If they felt he could develop into another Cox (i.e.- a midfielder who rucks), or a decent tall forward (which they lack), they would have stuck by him.

His deficiencies are just too big to fix IMO, particularly when in reality he really doesn't have any suitable position on the ground, which is something you need to find if you can't claim first ruck.

Whelan

Robertson

McDonald

Wheatley

Bell

All definites. No point them being in the team now. Just dead weight/list cloggers what ever you want to call them.

Players I'm tempted to get rid of but we don't due to the fact that we can't have such an overhaulf of our list

Dunn

Johnson

Bruce

Players who need to lift

Rivers

McLean

Bate

Am i the only person here who thinks we need to trade in some experience instead of trading away all our experienced players. Personally im not sure how we expect to develop all our young talented players to anywhere near there full potential.

Who does Watts have to look up to and to teach him to be a better player, Robbo? Miller? This is our main problem its no wonder Newton has not improved over the last few years. He has had no-one to guide him and to learn from.

Listening to the young Carlton #1 picks talk the other day and they all say how much they have learned and been helped along by guys like Judd, Stevens and even Scotland. Who do we have to pass on there knowledge and help players like Grimes, Morton, Dunn and Bate to reach there full potential?

Coaches can only do so much as the game style changes so quickly. It makes no sense thinking that Mcdonald, Bruce and co aren't going to be of our next Premiership so they are of no use to the club. The younger guys need older experienced guys to look up too. Watts would learn so much playing next to and trying to gain the respect from a club legend like Neitz and this is what we are lacking and all the high draft picks in the world cant change that.

Great Post, Very Sane. Although a lot of our "experienced" players should be on performance contracts. Yes our young players need experience around them but certainly not Bad Habits.

Trouble is we have no A Grade players, wish we did but we don't (Sylvia, Moloney & Davey are close)

We need the right coaches at this point. But i would expect a major offload at seasons end.

Listening to the young Carlton #1 picks talk the other day and they all say how much they have learned and been helped along by guys like Judd, Stevens and even Scotland. Who do we have to pass on there knowledge and help players like Grimes, Morton, Dunn and Bate to reach there full potential?

There is a big difference between trading for experience, and trading for Chris Judd or Nick Stevens!

The only experience players you'll get out of a trade are those who are themselves not quite right, injury prone, or past their prime. Or alternatively you can try to headhunt Pavlich and lose a first round draft pick and a host of kids in return.

Manufacturing success out of trade week has worked for nobody, with Sydney being the very rare exception, and that is only because they are willing to compromise their own draft position in order to achieve that.

I rather develop a team from scratch and have them all grow up together, thus having a sustained period of success, than try to plug holes with other club's duds.

Bell

Junior

Whelan

Robbo?

Trade bait from:

Wheatly

Dunn

Bartram

Bate

Miller

I'm torn on the rucks. PJ was shocking today. His disposal is absurdly poor. My only concern with getting rid of him would be the lack of depth we have to cover his loss.

Thats why he will go. If you don't cut the ruck list by one now, in 4 years time we may be caught out. We must let Pj go & draft 1 young 'touted' ruck with 3rd round pick & also rookie 1 bottom age ruck who'll come through Casey 2nds for a season or 2.

Meeson to my surprise has shown enough to see out another year, & Spence has earnt elevation IMO towards the end of this season.

That gives us 3 rucks to call on + one young gun ruck as back up with one in rookie reserve.

There is more to winning the ruck contest than hitting the ball first.

What Jamar does very well, and PJ never seems to, is protect the guys at ground level, and even feed the ball out himself. Basically, he does more than just hit the ball ever which way and then running off trying to get the ball.

I know you're a big PJ fan, and I wish desperately that (lack of rucking ability aside) he could use his size and athleticism and endurance to our advantage, but he can't. There's a reason why West Coast gave up on him so early in his career, and it wasn't injuries. If they felt he could develop into another Cox (i.e.- a midfielder who rucks), or a decent tall forward (which they lack), they would have stuck by him.

His deficiencies are just too big to fix IMO, particularly when in reality he really doesn't have any suitable position on the ground, which is something you need to find if you can't claim first ruck.

I do agree with your post. PJ's performance on Monday was just disgraceful, and unfortunately he plays just to much a 'friendly' brand of footy, a la Jeff White. Nice little uncontested touches here and there, but never really throwing the big body in to clear paths for his teammate. I've had a lot of time for him, and often overlooked his limitations because of my belief that his upside is greater than his downside. But one of his strengths (good skills for his size) has gone missing badly in recent weeks, and without that he is a huge liability. Mainly because of good position he makes, getting a lot of the ball then turning it over.

On Monday, in greasy conditions where a bit of grunt and a big body was needed around the stoppages. Uncontested footy was alwyas going to be difficult, especially for such a big man, yet PJ still wanted to play that way. Jamar lifted as the conditions suited him, and PJ, well... he lost a lot of my support, and even more sadly, my respect.

I rather develop a team from scratch and have them all grow up together, thus having a sustained period of success, than try to plug holes with other club's duds.

Absolutely agree. However if this is going to happen we need players that thrive on the challenge and all push each other to rise to the next challenge and the next challenge after that. We need strong Leadership to develop the potential we have at the club. I think we need more than just throwing a bunch of young blokes with talent and potential into a team and expecting them to get the best out of themselves.

Sylvia from all reports had his best pre season ever and no doubt expected big things from himself this year. It didn't happen early in the season and might not of happened at all if not for the phone call Mcdonald made to him. That is the kind of leadership we need to go forward.

The biggest problem is apart from McDonald our older players seem to lack that leadership and Mcdonalds body no longer allows him to lead by example .

Green can lead by example on the field but isnt a natural leader.

I love Robbo but he isnt a leader at all.

Bruce seems to a professional in his preparation but on the field you need better to inspire team mates.

Whelan and Wheatley are all we have left after that older than Davey and both are struggling with injuries.

Great leaders in the Tom Harley mould we don't have and aren't going to be able to get come trade week. So we must spend more time grooming what we have. We need great people around the club to develop Davey, Rivers, Miller, Moloney and Mclean who give there all into great leaders, so the more natural gifted youngsters have people to look up and be afraid to let down with sub par efforts.

Even if Miller and Mclean get beaten by there opponents there endeavour and love for the club can't be questioned.

My offload.

Bell

Dunn

McDonald

Bruce

Robbo

Zomer

Healey